Low A or just to Bb

[triplebsaxman]

Do you prefer Bari saxes with the Low A key (high bell) or the original Bari (with lower bell)?

[bariman]

There are many great existing threads on this question. Perhaps if we made the "search" button bigger, more people would use it...

Bariman

BTB, Low Bb all the way 8-)

[Tonehole]

Real smooth bariman, it is not like the site is overloaded with subscribers.
I pefer the old Bb myself but am conficted !

Gotta blow...............

[bariman]

[Sigh] Here is probably the best thread on the subject:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=20136

Bariman

[Morry]

I prefer the way a low Bb bari plays better, but most modern music requires a low A.

[OnyxSax]

We have tread on this subject before. I prefer the playing characteristics of the low Bb horns. I haven't found any Low A horn that can keep up with a good Low Bb horn.

Also the weight and balance differences between the horns are significant, which can be very important if you have back troubles like I do.

[HC]

I find that the low notes comes out easier on low Bb horns than on low A horns. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

[Brendan Muse]

Just to play devil's advocate, I like the low A horns because they're a) the only kind of modern horn that can be bought with any expectation of goodness, and b) the low A is the closest I'll likely ever get to playing a bass sax.

Although I have to admit that I detest them personally because the low A bari sax is the reason the bass sax is an archaic instrument.

[Helen]

the low A bari sax is the reason the bass sax is an archaic instrument.

This is not actually the case. The bass sax was on the endangered species list before baris routinely went to low A. I think Dr. Paul Cohen would be able to speak more definatively about this, but if I remember correctly, the big (pardon the pun) reasons for the bass's demise were (in no particular order): the Great Depression, advances in recording and amplification technology, and the end of the sax-crazed Vaudville days.

To answer the question at hand: Bb all the way baby....With the Paul Coats low A extension for that occasional extra low note when necessary.

[OnyxSax]

It just seems to me that you give up an awful lot just to get that extra half step.

I think part of the Bass sax's demise could also be attributed to that the horn was just too darn unwieldy to play and to move. Imagine carrying one of those things to a gig. I played George Wright's bass sax at last year's MD Gathering. It made my bari feel like an alto by comparison.

[RS]

Alright. I've said it a thousand times but I'll say it again. Low Bb baris play better than low A baris. They have a quicker easier response and better projection. They're better balanced on the neckstrap and being a couple of pounds lighter they're more comfortable to play--especially for long periods. I don't understand the point of the low A. Adds alot of weight and bulk to the horn for a note that maybe gets played three times a night.

[Michael Ward]

Most people seem to agree that the Bb, response and projection wise is superior when A-B'd with a low A. However if you want new the choice is very limited ( Keilworth ), used it's a different story. The low A ( concert C) note is however very useful in ensemble and there are many, many excellent players who play them. In a perfect world you would have both but given the choice and if you don't need Low A go for Bb. I play Bb mark 6 and would never change but if I was loaded I wouldn't mind an "A" as well.

[bariman]

Which leads us to.....

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8245

Bariman

[Bootman]

Low Bb, Conn tranny eats mk vi low Bb's for breakfast, destroys low A's for lunch and then monsters trumpets for desert. The closest Low A Bari (to my Conn Bb) I have ever owned was a Martin Magna which had the biggest bell know to man kind and thunders accordingly.

All in all, I prefer the projection and flexibility of a Low Bb horn, there is no substitute in the seismic disturbance game!

[Brendan Muse]

You lie!

The only response can be summed up in two words:

Bass.

Sax.

[bariman]

I think I can rightly say that Boot had only baritones in mind.

Bariman

[Brendan Muse]

Yes, yes I realize this.

But, see, in the "seismic disturbance game" of which he speaks, the bass sax beats out the baritone any day.

And, of course, I was joking.

[bariman]

:wink:

[Bootman]

Siesmic Disturbance of a Bass is great but the Bari is louder when it thunders. The Low Bb on the Bass ahs impact but the resonance frequency is too low to cause the necessary siemic disturbance in the sub strata. :D

[Brendan Muse]

What about the contrabass? Or the subcontrabass?

Or what if someone builds an octosubcontrabass?

[Bootman]

If it gets to the Octosubcontrabass then I want one..... I mean I need one.....

[Brendan Muse]

Maybe we could send a petition to Mr. Eppelsheim.

[dirty]

You would need a seismograph to register those vibrations.

[km]

I have had only limited experience on a low - A bari - but am very happy with my low Bb adolph sax pre-selmer horn: in particular with the low - A drainpipe extension - which if left in gives a more mellow tone to the lower range - anyone else prefer to leave this in?

the only hazard with this is that if you leave it around after playing - it tends to get chucked out as a piece of extraneous builders detritus- I'm on my third!!

km

[Al Stevens]

Someone wondered why we need a low A bari, what was the point of all that extra hardware and weight for only one note.

It's because if you're going to play bari in a big band, you need that extra note. Too many arrangements use it.

A friend has two Mark VI baris. Low A and low Bb. The Bb blows the A away in all respects, but he rarely gets to play it because all his bari work is with big bands. He refuses, however, to sell me the Bb. The rat.

[jmarshall83]

I use a Jody Jazz esp. w/ spoiler 10*. best baritone mouthpiece ever. for me anyway...
custom p. mauriat baritone sax low Bb. let me know what you guys think.

http://web.mac.com/jasonmarshalljazz
http://www.myspace.com/overtnegritude7

[BarrySachs]

Someone wondered why we need a low A bari, what was the point of all that extra hardware and weight for only one note.

It's because if you're going to play bari in a big band, you need that extra note. Too many arrangements use it.

A friend has two Mark VI baris. Low A and low Bb. The Bb blows the A away in all respects, but he rarely gets to play it because all his bari work is with big bands. He refuses, however, to sell me the Bb. The rat.


I suppose that's true for commercial work. Here in NYC, most of the top jazz baritone players use low Bb horns.

Joe Temperly
Gary Smulyan
Mark Lopeman
Kenny Berger
Dave Shumacker

Low Bb horns are also prefered by the younger jazz cats in town like

Jason Marshall
Kurt Bacher

Many players own 2 horns. 1 w/ low A for Broadway shows and other commercial work. And their low Bb jazz horn.

As an arranger myself, I NEVER write low A's in the baritone pats because all of my favourite baritone players play low Bb horns.

I have played many a big band gig on my low Bb Conn 12m. When I see a low A I either, put my foot in the bell, play an E insted, or take it up an octave. No one has ever complained.

[acti0n_jacks0n]

Low A sounds horrible. I'd hate to admit it, but it is true. Playing the horn (from an alto) for not even a full year, it is one of my least favorite notes. It is too bad that no highschool in their right mind owns one, just due to the fct that highschool composer love to hit that note. What is worse, when the write you to play low G. Having to lip down on that note is awful. It is the worst sound I have heard in my life. I'd rather play it an octave up in the quote-unquote 'safe' range. If only I could convince my director to get us some decent low Bflat horns.

Ick. Think of the horror of low A on a Unison. That is my best friends REALITY. (Luckily I grabbed the Yamaha before him ^_^)

[spensa028]

i like low As,
ive got a low a bari, and ive only ever played one low Bb,
i hated it
but i suppose it was a very nasty sax anyway so maybe im not being fair
and i like low a is quite kl, very meaty sounding

[wyliecoyote]

Obvious to me - none of youse lovin Bphat bari players have played a Rampone R1 Jazz low A horn. I suggest you try one out when you have a chance. :)

[Mikelazaro]

I play a Low A bari first because i gota go with what a got but when we play big band songs, Duke for example there filled with low A's You lose to much power when there played up an octave up.

[SearjeantSax]

or a suboctosubcontrabass
or a basssuboctosubcontrabass
or a suboctrosubsuboctosubcontrabass

[littlemanbighorn]

Bb

[Bar-Ron]

Siesmic Disturbance of a Bass is great but the Bari is louder when it thunders. The Low Bb on the Bass ahs impact but the resonance frequency is too low to cause the necessary siemic disturbance in the sub strata. :D

Put a plasticover on a Zinner mp on a Bass and you will hear a note so large and powerful bari saxes will sound like Tenors.:D

[sycc]

I played a Selmer Mark VI low Bb baritone at USA horn and guess what. I like my Super Action 80 series I low A baritone better. Heck,I prefered the Yani 901 baritone over the VI. The VI I played was the near mint condition 1978 that is heavily advertised on the USA horn site. Someday I would like a low Bb Keilwerth bari for solo work(and less weight). Nick Brignola played low A baritones for many years til he got his Keilwerth low Bb bari. Ronnie Cuber wails on a low A mark VI bari. The differance is there but probably is small.

[Bar-Ron]

I do notice that my imitation of a famous design, supervised by French technicians and assemble under the watchful eyes of design advisers from various schools of thought, that when I play B or Bb that the tone gets thin as compared to my horn built by Vintage old timers when they were in their prime making horns of everlasting beauty and playability. So in my meager comparisons the Bb horn plays wider and more tone full than my previously stated scale encrusted, finish pealing, temporary technology with modern conveniences.
Due to the need for A in so many pieces I elected to accept the thin B and Bb so I could scare the flute section and challenge the tuba once every song. However, when it comes to rich room filling warmth, under exposed conditions I prefer the complex, broad colorful tone of the deep resonance of an American designed, American built tool of musical expression from yesteryear, that's bottom range of Bb doesn't hamper the sounds being so warmly emitted from the bell notes!

[acti0n_jacks0n]

or a suboctosubcontrabass
or a basssuboctosubcontrabass
or a suboctrosubsuboctosubcontrabass

subsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsubsub...

Oy. I can't wait until we see the next monstrosity (I say that in a good way) the Eppelsheim will make.

[Barbarian Wyte Man]

low A is where its at

[Momeijheii]

So I love a low A bari with a passion? Shoot me.
Okay, don't really shoot me, but really. I started out on
a Yamaha bari with a low A and being subjected to an old Elkhart Bb is
breaking my heart. Low A is my favorite note to play, because when you
blast it in a crowded band hall, all the silly little flute players stop polluting the air with their racket.

[markb]

LOL

the old Elkhart that was my backup would get positively seismic at Bb.. :)

and yes, I admit that I used it to startle the flutists in front of me, time to time.

Fortunatley for me, a friend wanted to go with a Low A horn, so he sold me
his buscher 400 Bb. it's not got QUITE as much muscle, but I can take it from
Guts to Sweet in nothin flat. :)
Which makes it nice for playing in the church orchestra. :)

perhaps, one day, I'll try a Low A horn myself. of course, then I'd buy it...
and then I'd be in BIG trouble with my Lady.. :D
(right now she's afraid I'll start huntin for a Bass sax 8-) )

hmmm... you know... when my son moves out... 4 Axes will move out with him...
I might have room after all.. ROFL

mark

[HOUSTON NONET]

if you play a lot of bari for $$-- buy one of each

[HOUSTON NONET]

I suppose that's true for commercial work. Here in NYC, most of the top jazz baritone players use low Bb horns.

Joe Temperly
Gary Smulyan
Mark Lopeman
Kenny Berger
Dave Shumacker

Low Bb horns are also prefered by the younger jazz cats in town like

Jason Marshall
Kurt Bacher

Many players own 2 horns. 1 w/ low A for Broadway shows and other commercial work. And their low Bb jazz horn.

As an arranger myself, I NEVER write low A's in the baritone pats because all of my favourite baritone players play low Bb horns.

I have played many a big band gig on my low Bb Conn 12m. When I see a low A I either, put my foot in the bell, play an E insted, or take it up an octave. No one has ever complained.

this cat is a REAL pro-- listen to him

[buffalobill]

It seems to me that Pepper Adams played the low A on that song called moanin way back in the earyly 60's. I bought a Charles Mingus CD (with Eric Dolphy, Pepper Adams, Jackie McClean) the other day and the intro to moanin by Pepper seems to be with the A. I'm surprised that it existed at that early period. Maybe it's a frequency shift due to differences in recording and playback speeds during remaking of the CD? THe key seems to be Dminor for Eb instruments. Anybody know about that? Anyway I love this song and the interpretation by Pepper Adams.

[robbieg]

Someone wondered why we need a low A bari, what was the point of all that extra hardware and weight for only one note.

It's because if you're going to play bari in a big band, you need that extra note. Too many arrangements use it.

A friend has two Mark VI baris. Low A and low Bb. The Bb blows the A away in all respects, but he rarely gets to play it because all his bari work is with big bands. He refuses, however, to sell me the Bb. The rat.

+1...

Low A for show bands, big band stuff, etc. In college I swear one year in jazz band every piece we played had at least 1 low A in it.
Low Bb for solo and combos.

[altobarisax]

Definitely Low A...

Every piece i play in jazz band has at least one low A in it.

[playitfunky]

Don't know myself but I have heard many great Bari players swear that low A ruins a Bari.

[Sasquatch]

Ok, I'll chime in (getting darn close to 100 posts, which is 1% of 10,000 if I am doing my math correctly early on a Sunday morning, I'm hot on your heels now Gary :headbang:).

I am primarily a tenor player, but the absolute finest sax I've ever played on was a low A Couf that belonged to the Conservatory I was attending. It rattled the rafters if needed, or could easily play ppp. I currently play a 1955 Big B Buescher Aristocrat that goes to Bb with a Link #8 Tone Edge that I am quite pleased with. I needed a low A recently for a recording, but ProTools was able to transpose my Bb just fine :D.

However, if I had to choose I think I'd go low A because a low concert C seems to be a note I'd like to be able to play pretty often (C being the key of choice for the singer in one of the bands I play with).

[Gaines (bari]

i can go to the lower notes just as easily on a low A as i can on a low Bb. But i prefer the low A because the extra note gives you more musical possibilities.

[MPL]

On "Moanin'" the baritone part goes only to low Bb, so if you were hearing a low A I suspect a different playback speed on the recording.

Awhile back, someone else on the Forum suggested that low Bb baritones do not blow louder or better than low A baris - just differently. Although many would disagree with this idea, I tend to agree with it. When I switched from a low Bb "The Martin" to a low A horn (first a .Com, then a Yani), I got a lot of good feedback on how much better it projected with the same mouthpiece setup. It sure didn't sound like that to me, but the point is that everyone else could tell.

I also do a fair amount of big band arranging, and if it makes sense for the bari line to go to a low concert C, then I'll write it in the part. On the other hand, the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis (now Vanguard) Jazz Orchestra has done quite nicely with Pepper Adams early on, and Gary Smulyan recently, and neither one plays a low A horn. If I should ever be fortunate enough to have the VJO play one of my charts, I'm not going to worry about how well that low C pops...

[Gaines (bari]

We have tread on this subject before. I prefer the playing characteristics of the low Bb horns. I haven't found any Low A horn that can keep up with a good Low Bb horn.

Also the weight and balance differences between the horns are significant, which can be very important if you have back troubles like I do.


i have no problem "keeping up" with my low A. Plus, my low Bb is 5 pounds heavier than my low A.

[Saxby]

I couldn't live without that extra note.

A just punches that much harder than B flat. I personally believe that its essential. I would like to try out a B flat now though....

Mind you I haven't played bari in about 3 years, I've got a nice new YBS - 52 low A on the way though, so hopefully that will satisfy my low A bari cravings.

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

Different horns.

I prefer low A. You gotta blow more, but it's a big horn. It's worth it for that extra half step.

Oh, and I think the action is just fine. I've never had issues with keeping up.

[joshuski]

I've played bari off/on since '74 & always thought Bb was it. Then had a change of heart when I recently blew on a Keilwerth SX90 Low A - it's got some grunt going on.

[ragencajun]

A or Bb? I've been playing a Selmer Bari. with a low A key since 1968. If your going to make a living at playing Bari., you need it.. For all types of music, especially big band. If your going to be a professional, get a low A, other wise it doesn't matter... 8-)

[techmonkey]

In high school, i had the pleasure of demo-ing a few of hte newer Cannonball Baris back in 03-05 era, and all were equipped with the Long tubed low A keys setup... A lot of people had griped about the increased response times for the Low A baris, but I did not see any difference to be honest, even with some fast keyed tunes like Cruisin' For a Bluesin' by Maynard Ferguson :*(

loads of people love the Bb, but I absolutely loved how much I made the stage rattle with my Low A tubes ;) it's just a feeling you don't really forget, granted I was in a big band setting, not a small jazz quintet that many people love to use their Bb's with...

[jmarshall83]

A or Bb? I've been playing a Selmer Bari. with a low A key since 1968. If your going to make a living at playing Bari., you need it.. For all types of music, especially big band. If your going to be a professional, get a low A, other wise it doesn't matter... 8-)

i am a professional baritone saxophonist and haven't played a low A horn regularly since 2000. and as far as big bands go, I'm not sure what you mean by professional but i play with the Mingus big band, afro-latin jazz orchestra, Roy Hargrove bands (big band included). In fairness, the vast majority of my work is with small groups where the low A key is purely optional but the majority of "professional" baritone players, at least in new york use low Bb horns. joe temperly, gary smulyan, frank basile, jason marshall (me), bluiett, scott robinson, chris karlic. we all make a living on the baritone. All im saying is that there is nothing wrong with a Low A baritone ( i own a fabulous 161xxx) but ownership of one does not indicate one level of professionalism or another.

[eekadog]

i remember playing this one song in marching band. As the freshman, I had the old silver plated Bb that was a living organism in need of an overhaul and the older guys had the new B901s. The bass line was D-A-C-D and I frowned everytime that I had to play middle A.

Now that I think about it I wish I knew what kind of horn the Bb was...unfortunately, at the time the green slime that would ooze from the spit valve kinda turned me off to that horn.

[Mal 2]

Now that I think about it I wish I knew what kind of horn the Bb was...unfortunately, at the time the green slime that would ooze from the spit valve kinda turned me off to that horn.

There is truth to the old joke: "What's the difference between a school-owned bari sax and a garbage truck? One is a smelly, scum-encrusted hulk, and the other is a public sanitation vehicle." :D

[bari_sax]

I've played my 1936 naked lady Conn Bb bari for over 20 years. I love the beautiful response and lush sound. The bottom end absolutely thunders. In fact, I love it so much that I scored a newer one for a spare. (1937 - newer is relative...:))

I figure if a low Bb horn was good enough for Harry Carney and Gerry Mulligan, it's good enough for a hack like me.

And yes, I have test played a bunch of low A horns at the WW&BW over the years (I live an hour away from the candy store - woo-hoo!) and nothing even comes close.

[eekadog]

There is truth to the old joke: "What's the difference between a school-owned bari sax and a garbage truck? One is a smelly, scum-encrusted hulk, and the other is a public sanitation vehicle." :D

now that over 10 years have passed since I was a highschool freshman I think I can laugh at that one...:D

[Gyatso]

I have both a low Bb and a low A markVI and I must say that i prefer the low Bb more. It´s more projection and a bigger sound. If you are a soloist I would say, go for the Bb bari.

-A

[sycc]

I played a Selmer Mark VI low Bb baritone at USA horn and guess what. I like my Super Action 80 series I low A baritone better. Heck,I prefered the Yani 901 baritone over the VI. The VI I played was the near mint condition 1978 that is heavily advertised on the USA horn site. Someday I would like a low Bb Keilwerth bari for solo work(and less weight). Nick Brignola played low A baritones for many years til he got his Keilwerth low Bb bari. Ronnie Cuber wails on a low A mark VI bari. The differance is there but probably is small. I ordered a low Bb R1 Jazz Rampone baritone. so I'll compare it to my low A selmer when it arrives.

[bluesaxgirl]

Nothing better than blowing a low A. :D

[sycc]

Nothing better than blowing a low A. :D I have a low A Selmer Super Action 80 series I. Yeah the A is alot of fun. I got the Rampone to low Bb to see the differance not having the low A and to take a load off my back!!!!

[acti0n_jacks0n]

I have a low A Selmer Super Action 80 series I. Yeah the A is alot of fun. I got the Rampone to low Bb to see the differance not having the low A and to take a load off my back!!!!

That is a fun horn(The Selmer)! I got to play my band director's after my horn got annihilated.

Anyway.. The practicality of the low A is questionable. Unless you are playing Moanin' (by Charles Mingus, of course ^_^) or Everything Went Numb (by Streetlight Manifesto) you are really not going to NEED the low A. Sure.. it is fun to belt that thing out every so often.. but the longer bell seems to compromise the tone quality of the Bb..

So I have gotta say Bb on this one :)

[Garrett]

I like the way a low Bb horn responds but there is just no way to play "Tower of Power" baritone parts without a low A.

[YAY SAXOPHONE]

The only major difference I have noticed between my low A YBS-52 and low Bb Conn 12m and Buescher TT is that the overtones series is a heck of a lot easier on the Bb horns. I would have to go with low A simply because it feels more comfortable to me and the low A is essential.

[paradimensional]

What about the contrabass? Or the subcontrabass?

Or what if someone builds an octosubcontrabass?

I can only imagine... :shock: