New nasty (not nasty as bad) sound for Bari

[triplebsaxman]

I just first off want to say i am 16 so talking about the evolution of the saxophone might not be my strong point, but it seems to me a lot of the gigging and profesional bari sax players go for like a Dennis Diblasio or Bruce Johnstone or even the guy for big bad voodoo daddy (sorry i don't know his name) type sound. Almost like a more nastier funky sound instead of the Gerry Mulligan or harry Carney smooth pretty sound.
Why has the modern Bari player evolved into having this kind of sound? and is anyone like me who doesn't really prefer it over the classic sound as much?

I don't mean any offense by this but it seems that the new bari sound is limiting to a lot of players. It seems like they are stuck doing bass work and the accational solo instead or being like a front man Like Gerry mulligan where the Bari is the voice not the support.

and also i know a lot of Pop and Latin songs require that nasty (not nasty as bad but nasty as powerful) sound so i understand the whole music change out of swing but i was wondering if there are any other reasons?

Thank you a lot

[OnyxSax]

I think your answer lies in why so many soprano players want to have that "duckish" tone like Kenny G. It's the popular sound...

I think it also has to do with the manufacturing process. The players you describe used Low Bb baris, not Low A baris. Mulligan, in particular, was very loyal to his Conn Chu Baritones. The older vintage baris, up to the Low Bb Mark VIs were designed as melodic instruments. Newer baris seem to be designed more as accompaniment instruments.

The comparison paralells the soprano. Pick up a modern soprano and compare it to a vintage one. The vintage horns don't have that "duckish" tone...they are warmer and more rounded than their modern brothers.

[hornstar]

triplebsaxman, I also prefer the more complex sound you describe. the so-called modern bari sound, I think, is the result of horns that play with a good solid consistent core, teamed with mouthpieces that cut through, they work well for horn section and electric settings where tone and nuances tend to be buried in the mix. however, I find that they just don't have the character and pathos of many vintage horns, where each individual note is rich with color and tone, something I want when the bari will often be featured melodically. you may not have the years of experience, but you've got good taste, go with it.

[electricninja]

I dunno, soft and smooth just doesn't sound good on this Jupiter. But hey, it could sound as wow as Barry White, I'll just never know until I trade my left nut for a Yamaha.

[gspiegel]

I think the best sound depends on what you want to do. If you want to play funky, you don't want to sound like Harry Carney. You need to find out what you want to say, and then you can focus on the right sound. Listen to both Carney and Nick Brignola play "Sophisticated Lady." Two great players with different conceptions and different sounds.

Mulligan is at the extreme light end of baritone sound--almost like a big tenor, since he tends to play fast and high up on the horn--good for small ensemble playing. At the other extreme are maybe Brignola, Ronnie Cuber, Gary Smullyan, all great players but with more of a "cutting through" kind of sound. Listen to Brignola if you want to hear how rich and complex that kind of sound can be. For that matter, if you want to hear another different sound--shy and plaintive--listen to Cecil Payne.

Horns make less difference than people say. Sure, your sound may be a little bigger on a Conn or brighter on a Yanigasawa, but you make the sound. :D Once you know what you want to sound like (not easy) you'll sound like yourself on any instrument.

Glenn

[altoman50]

I can't believe all this bari sax talk and not one person mentioned to me the greatest bari player besides pepper Adams,Nick Brignola.Check him out kids you will be glad you did.Some of you will make lamps out of your bari after hearing this monster.

[altoman50]

Sorry gspiegel,I saw your reply after I posted mine.Thank you,you did mention my dear friend Nick Brignola.I miss him so much.
Thank you

[MPL]

No doubt about it - Brignola is one of the monsters. I have a couple of his recordings that illustrate how different he sounded on different baritones.

The earlier recording is "On a Different Level," where he used a Yamaha Custom low A baritone. Not sure what mouthpiece and setup, but he gets that very edgy, "cutting" sound throughout, even on softer tunes. On the uptempo stuff, look out - that sound could slice through concrete.

Now on "Flight of the Eagle," where he plays a Keilwerth low A bari...the sound is quite a bit different. Nowhere near as much edge, although when he kicks into high gear you can hear traces of it. It's not the lighter Mulligan/Serge Chaloff sound by any means, but it still sounds great and it sounds completely different than on "On a Different Level."

Mulligan's approach to baritone was different as well - not as aggressive an improviser as his contemporaries Pepper Adams, Sahib Shihab, or Cecil Payne, so his lines didn't have those "cutting" shapes either, and you're hearing a lot of that as well. A lot of his concept was rooted in blending with the ensemble - how many times did he record with other saxophonists where they were both playing simultaneously? - so that was probably another reason he stayed away from an edgier sound.

[BayviewSax]

triplebsaxman, if you really love that classic sound, check out Tate Houston. He isn't on much, but I believe he recorded with Donald Byrd (available on the Mosaic set) and he's on Yusef Lateef's EASTERN SOUNDS. Absolutely beautiful, warm, unmistakable tone. Pat Patrick is another one. I like both styles, but have always gravitated towards the Pepper Adams sound because Pepper was such a bad MF.

[danarsenault]

The answer is Jan Konopasek, former bari player with Woody Herman. His sound was almost all edge, and it started to tip the balance to edgier tone

[Beck]

Very interesting and thought provoking topic!

I once heard Gerry Mulligan live, performing with only piano, bass and drums and I was amazed at how big his sound was. At that very same jazz festival Nick Brignola performed on the very same stage, and also in a quartet setting. Neither of them was miked. Brignola played brilliantly as he always did, but I did not have the impression that his sound was any bigger than Mulligan’s. In fact (this was back when he was playing on a yamaha and a strathon mouthpiece) there were times when I had the impression that Mulligan’s sound was actually more resonant. This surprised me since every recording I had of the two gave the opposite impression. Not many players can or could control the baritone like Brignola and one need only listen to his artistry on ballads such as “Spring is Here” “Darn that Dream” or “Lush Life” to answer the question of whether or not he could play supplely and sweetly. However, I never really heard Brignola push his dynamic-range without it having an edgy effect on his tone, especially in the mid to upper register. At these times he seemed to apply the “gutsy” or “edgier” tone color that one hears in his bebop playing. I always thought that this was due more to setup than to taste or concept, but I may be wrong. I did hear him on a number of occasions say that Paul Desmond was a big influence on him and his playing.

After that festival I started hearing Mulligan’s playing a little differently, and I hear him doing more with his dynamic spectrum without influencing his basic tonal timbre than Brignola did.

I am not making a qualifying judgment here. Both players were tremendous artists who left the musical world better than they found it.

@Altoman50: I miss them as well.

Beck

[DD]

For some recent Bruce, check out his work on this site, particularly "Down with Love" - tending toward edgier but still fleet and facile. Good players all on this one, which speaks well for a "local" effort.http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/lydiamarks