C Melody was reproduced !

[fluga]

Greetings !
There was a company that tried to remarket a modern C Melody around 1960. It was Vito. They made around 120 of them if I remember right and they only sold about 18 or 20. They said that it was a huge marketing failure and they scrapped the rest. I read this somewhere on the www a while ago.
I am sure that today a professionally made C Melody would be a marketing hit since the demand has risen and many restorers are restoring them and selling like Cyber Sax for example. So there has to be money in it. Wat I think is very interesting is that nobody knows who actually designed this instrument. Wouldn´t be more logical to make a Tenor in C ? That would be something new - at least I have never seen or heard of a Tenor in C. Any of you guy´s heard of or seen one ?!?!?!

[saxchado]

The C-mel IS a tenor in C.

Originally, there were two sets of saxophones, the band set (still produced) keyed in Eb and Bb, and an orchestral set (no longer in production) keyed in F and C, respectively. There just wasn't the demand, as the instrumentation of the orchestra was already so firmly established, but the band set remains as we know saxophones today.

[fluga]

Well I do not agree !
A tenor in C would be just like the Bb tenor but only smaller. The C Melody is not produced in that way. The proportions are quite different for example the bell part is narrower. There is a good article on the web on this issue - I will look it up and send you the URL. Just put a C Melody beside a Tenor and have a look and you will see what I mean.

[paulwl]

Jonas, I sure would like to see that article...

The C melody really does seem to be made to be a gentler-toned, "parlor" instrument. The bore is narrower throughout, closer to an alto's then a tenor's, with the expected change to timbre. It was an idea Conn used in their F mezzo-soprano, an F alto proportioned (and timbred) more like a soprano.

As for origins, I always assumed it was likewise Conn who pioneered what we think of as the C melody shortly after 1900. More likely, though, it was a late 19th century French idea that just never caught on over there. Tenors in C and altos in F had been made in very small numbers years before. But I suspect they were proportioned more like the Bb/Eb horns.

[mosplace]

Here is a very nice picture of the size differences. There you can see an alto, c melody curved neck, c melody straight neck and tenor. the pictures down low, show the different loock between a c-mel and a tenor. Furthermore there are some sound samples of c-melodys and c-soprano.The site is in german, but everybody can see a picture or listen to the soundfiles .http://www.saxwelt.de/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=di splay&ceid=208&meid=196

It is the best german saxophone page with a whole lot of infos about all kind of saxophones.

[cmelodysax]

Mo - so that's where my sound samples ended up ! Fame at last :D
Kind Regards, Alan.

[mosplace]

Mo - so that's where my sound samples ended up ! Fame at last :D
Kind Regards, Alan.

Yes, but you know, i have asked you. If you don´t want it anymore, let me know. But i like these files very much :D

[paulwl]

Mo - so that's where my sound samples ended up !
Mine, too. I recorded 2 short bites comparing Buescher Bb and C sopranos (using the same mouthpiece, and to my ears, just about identical thru my cheezy laptop mic).

:idea: Mo, maybe I should record tenor and C mel for you too.

[cmelodysax]

Mo - bestimmt nicht, kein problem, glad to help the C-Mel cause- just embarrassed by the cheesy mic on my PC as well, I really must invest in a little 'portable studio deck' maybe with a little reverb, a bit of compression, a touch of chorus, backing.......... 8)

Did you want flute and C-clarinet samples as well :D Just kidding ! Alan.

[saxchado]

Mo, vielen Dank!
Ein schoenes Beispiel!

Jonas, you will notice upon reading (even if you don't read German) that it is referred to as a C-melody TENOR. If you think about it, the lowest note on the horn is going to be a whole step higher than on the Bb tenor, which would make the horn quite a bit shorter (how much of the horn covers the distance from low C to low Bb?!?) and seem "narrower" as the higher notes would all be a whole step higher as well. ie: The low Bb of the C-mel would only have to be as thick or as long as the tube to the low C on the tenor.

The relationships of the F-mezzo to the Eb Alto, and C-sop to the Bb sop would also be proportionally similar.

[bruce bailey]

I will go along with it being a "tenor" as that is closest to the sounding range, but I don't like to see them advertised as a tenor as too many uninformed people can be misled. When I see a C advertised as an alto or tenor, I always contact the seller to advise in a polite manner. It saves everyone grief in the long run.

[saxchado]

I'll agree, Bruce, that care should be taken not to confuse an un-informed person. Imagine the frustration of some poor kid (with a brass player for a band director who doesn't know any better) trying to use a C-mel to play Bb Tenor parts all year! :lol:

[bruce bailey]

Pull out!! pull out!!! DUDE, pull out!!!

[mosplace]

Mo - so that's where my sound samples ended up !
Mine, too. I recorded 2 short bites comparing Buescher Bb and C sopranos (using the same mouthpiece, and to my ears, just about identical thru my cheezy laptop mic).

:idea: Mo, maybe I should record tenor and C mel for you too.

We are gratefull for every help.

By the way, i can recommend you a realy great Micro. They are called "Soundman OKM" These little mics are awsome. If anybody would like to get some, contact me. The recording quality is incredible. I record with my minidisc player.

Maybe you can send me some pics of your c-soprano with info of Serial etc. The only c-soprano that is gonna be on this page in near future is my beautiful King. Over here you hardly can find any c-soprano.
By the way, how can i get your book?

[goodsax]

One factor impeding the popularity of the c-melody and a possible resurgence of its manufacture is the lack of band/orchestra parts written for c-mel. It's a kind of Catch-22 in that composers don't write parts for c-mel saxes because there aren't enough of them to make it worthwhile (I suppose), and there aren't that many of them because there are no parts written for them.

[cmelodysax]

A lot of C-Mel players are established sax/clari players who are well used to transposing 'concert' music for Bb or Eb instruments. Seems only fitting that we should now 'reverse transpose' Bb and Eb parts back to concert if needed !!

But there's normally a 'master' or conductors score kicking around somewhere with everything frequently written in concert pitch. In this technological age of scanning and image manipulation, it's no problem to extract specific parts in 'concert' pitch. Where there's a will there's a way.....

Regards, Alan.

[goodsax]

A lot of C-Mel players are established sax/clari players who are well used to transposing 'concert' music for Bb or Eb instruments. Seems only fitting that we should now 'reverse transpose' Bb and Eb parts back to concert if needed !!

But there's normally a 'master' or conductors score kicking around somewhere with everything frequently written in concert pitch. In this technological age of scanning and image manipulation, it's no problem to extract specific parts in 'concert' pitch. Where there's a will there's a way.....

Regards, Alan.

I agree with you, there are a variety of methods available for producing c-melody sax parts. But, my point was that ready-made c-melody parts are not available as they are for the other (SABT) saxes.

[Roger Aldridge]

I suspect an answer to Goodsax's question is that for practical purposes the c-melody has been considered to be an obsolete instrument since the 40's. Thus, it probably hasn't occurred to composers or arrangers to include a c-melody in their score. It's only been in the past few years that more sax players have rediscovered the c-melody. Our numbers are growing but we're still something of a sub-culture.

It's been my feeling that if some of the top jazz arrangers -- someone like Maria Schneider or Bob Brookmeyer -- would begin to include the c-melody in their ensembles (as a double) and write for it, it would help to generate more interest in the horn. I can only dream what might have happened if Gil Evans included a c-melody in his bands while he was alive!

However, there's also a catch-22 here. Many published arrangers often write for fairly typical sax sections and doubling due to constrains placed upon them by their publishers. Thus, scoring for a c-melody might make it harder to get an arrangement published as a publisher wouldn't think that too many high school or college jazz ensembles have a kid who owns a c-melody.

But, in the meantime, it's up to US to to use our c-melody in our music ensembles however we can. I normally play clarinet in our community concert band. But, sometimes I'll sit in with the sax section and transpose the 2nd alto sax part for c-melody. It's not that hard if you know bass cleff (ie, think of the 2nd alto part as being in bass cleff and adjust for the accidentals). I've had a great time playing c-mel in concert band. I also use the c-mel sometimes in the big band I play in. This is in addition to using the c-melody extensively in my 6-piece group.

[goodsax]

Excellent recap, Roger. I know you've been a c-melody advocate for quite some time from your active participation in the c-melody forum at another site, to your informative posts on the subject here. I always find them very interesting. I just may go out and buy another c-melody now to do my part for the campaign. I think it would be easiest to begin by playing one in church where solos and duets are music du-Sunday where I go.

[fluga]

Check this item on eBay - 3743521729 - . A fifteen year old C Melody from Brazil ?!?!? Strange but still very interesting. I wonder if the key mechanism is modern and comfortable.

Jonas.

[goodsax]

Check this item on eBay - 3743521729 - . A fifteen year old C Melody from Brazil ?!?!? Strange but still very interesting. I wonder if the key mechanism is modern and comfortable.

Jonas.

It's sold - $401. It does look interesting, but too late to get in on the action.
http://i14.ebayimg.com/03/i/02/52/47/5d_1.JPG

[saxcurious]

Interesting.
It is made by Weril by the looks of the bell.
www.weril.com.br does not currently list anything of the sort.
There is another one listen in MercadoLivre.com.br (the brazilian equivalent for Ebay) without pictures, and also pictures posted from a Bb tenor saxophone in another ad that looks very similar.

[cmelodysax]

Rob, I wasn't being that naive as to think that the C-Mel could make ever a major impact on standard 'section' scoring, but it would be so easy to incorporate an extra 'C optionally scored' part on all those little specials - e.g. where a sax joins an orchestra for something a bit exotic.

Being right in the middle between alto & tenor, the range wouldn't be a problem (we all play some harmonics, at least to High A, to cover alto - and the bottom two tenor notes are a bit of a rarity in scores). Plus a 'gentle' C-Mel would sound great playing solo soprano sax parts....

The C-Mel will probably never ever become an integrated part of a sax section, certainly not until sax players include a decent one as a standard 'double'. Personally, I wish I'd done that decades ago to cope with any music thrown at me in 'concert' notation. Same goes for my C-clarinet, too late for me now I'm retired, but it/they would have made work a lot easier in the past if I'd not just been focussed on the Bb/Eb options, frequently having to put my 'transposing hat' on.

Regards, Alan.

P.S That Brazilian C-Mel looks interesting. Apart from the more modern key-guards etc., did someone maybe get hold of some old Elkhart tooling - like with the 'Polski Fiat' cars ? Pity the pics aren't high enough resolution to get in close for a look.

[goodsax]

<skip>
Being right in the middle between alto & tenor, the range wouldn't be a problem (we all play some harmonics, at least to High A, to cover alto - and the bottom two tenor notes are a bit of a rarity in scores). Plus a 'gentle' C-Mel would sound great playing solo soprano sax parts....
<skip>
Regards, Alan.
<skip>

I agree that this makes an attractive hypothetical, and that having one available for concert key parts would be convenient. I'd like to hear a c-melody soloing, or just blending, in a concert band, or included in an ensemble. How about starting sax quintets - SBATC? Dreaming aside, if I bought a c-melody now, I think playing it would by default be solely for my own enjoyment, outside of any organized group, because of the negative stigma it suffers, whether or not justified. I'm still threatening to buy one - at least it seems threatening to my wife to think I'd buy yet another sax - and maybe try to exert its influence in a small relatively informal group like our church orchestra, and switch to it when I'm asked to play a solo or sax duet for some special occasion.

[cmelodysax]

Rob- understand all you say, but just think, you could sit in on string quartets etc. with no transposing...

And, happily, I'm just a tad over 5', so a C-Mel looks like a tenor on me, and makes me look taller (until a Bb tenor player stands beside me :( ).

Regards, Alan

[Roger Aldridge]

Rob,

I sometimes use my c-mel in the sax quartet I play in (in addition to the big band and community concert band that I mentioned in my previous message). I typically transpose an alto part. It's really nice hearing the sound of the c-melody in a quartet setting. As I mentioned on another thread, I have several Ralph Morgan c-melody mouthpieces in different facings and each one has it's own tonal qualities. This enables me to fine-tune my sound for the particular ensemble I'm playing in -- brighter and projecting for big band, darker and more focused for sax quartet or concert band. In particular, I get a great feeling playing my c-mel in the big band and hearing how it holds it's ground with the other horns. Revenge of the c-melodies! ha ha ha :lol:

Roger