A modern C-mel...

[bariman]

I can't understand why the big 4 won't make a proffesional c- melody! It's seems to me that the saxes in concert pitch are really making a comeback, and all we players have to choose from are out-of-tune saxes that were designed to be "bottom-of-the-line". I'll admit some Conns and Martins are great, but the majority of the others are often way out of tune, almost to the point where they are unusable. They were made to fit the budget of the musician-on-the-side, and a cutting edge model never came out. It's been a good fifty + years since a new model was designed! Just think, a Selmer or Keilwerth C-mel, gold plate or silver, with all the best features you have come to live by in modern saxes. Wouldn't that be great!?! What do you guys think?

Bariman

[Dave Dolson]

Bariman: I'm not trying to be mean, but this very subject was completely discussed a while ago on SOTW. I doubt if any manufacturer would go through the drill for a few sales . . . and I doubt if a new C-Mel would generate more than a few sales. I recall we agreed that while it is nice to dream, it probably won't happen. I wouldn't buy one - and I buy a bunch. DAVE

[bruce bailey]

I think that with the number of used ones popping up, it keeps the market (small as it is) down. A new C soprano would make more sense as they sound very nice and would follow the popularity of the Bb Soprano.

[Dave Dolson]

I may have to apologize (slightly) . . . now that the subject of a C-sop came up, I can't recall if past discussions involved C-sops, C-Mels, or both. At any rate, the issues are the same - lots of development and manufacturing prep expenses for few sales. Maybe a C-Mel would sell a little better than a C-sop, but not enough to justify the expenses. MY opinion. DAVE

[bariman]

Sorry, Dave. It was kinda late last night when I started this thread, and I didn't even think to search the forum. As to the topic, I think I was aiming more toward a dream sax more than anything. I was just venting some of my frustration toward my own c-melody (c-tenor). I see what your gdtting at though. But wouldn't it be cool if...

Bariman

[mosplace]

You know, i have talked to Keilwerth a while ago about that. Unfortunatly they are not planning of producing a new c-mel. Eventhough Keilwerth produces some odd instruments as the straight alto and tenor. I´m still hoping they will some day.
if you keep looking at the prices the c-mels cost, recently, you must have recognized, that sales prices are raising for them. Even saxgourmet has changed the estimated prices in his list. The range now on the same level as an alto model.
People want to have these instruments. Industry is reacting and makes modern mouthpieces and cases for them. So mayby the dream will come true.
I cannot say, that the c-mels that have been produced in the past, have had a bad quality. They have been produced with the same know-how, material etc. as the alto and tenor horns. The old vintage alto and tenor have sometimes also a bad time of intonation. So if a c-mel is overhault by a profi and gets the best pads and other stuff, they are very good instruments. People do them wrong, if they say they where no good. That is a lie

[JMac]

I'm aware of the c-mels, c-sops and f-mezzo's, but I am curious if any saxes have been produced in A? Seeing the clarinet 'doubler's case' for Bb and A (concert) clarinets made me wonder.... :?:

[bariman]

I've certainly never heard of one in A.

Bariman

[super20dan]

a c sop is much more usefull than a c-melody.you can at least play oboe parts on a c-sop. i dont miss my c-melody on bit!

[Brendan Muse]

F-Mezzos would be great for school bands, when the director has a weak or non-existent french horn section...

And I'd buy one anyway. :D

[Randall]

I can imagine c-mels possibly being a hit with the legit crowd ...I mean it is well known that a lot of sax teachers sometimes use flute etudes (parts written in C) for their sax students.
I see the c mel as a great instrument for lesson taking/giving. The size and timbre being right between alto and tenor.
And, you can be sure the contemporary Chrisitan bands would latch on to them right away....

Maybe the time has come for one of the upper tier asian makers to make the jump? Maybe even JK....If the price were kept reasonable....

Unison has produced the keyless sax....can't imagine them selling more than a handful of those a year. (I know it didn't cost much to develop it, obviously!) As was previously mentioned, JK makes straight horns and I KNOW they only sell a handful of those every year.

I don't really think it would take all that much to produce a modern c-mel, and if your company were the only one to do it, then I am sure it would be more lucrative than the aforementioned straights and keyless horns.

[fluga]

Greetings !
Actually there was a company that tried to remarket a modern C Melody around 1960. It was Vito. They made around 120 of them if I remember right and they only sold about 18 or 20. They said that it was a huge marketing failure and they scrapped the rest. I read this somewhere on the www a while ago.
I am sure that today a professionally made C Melody would be a marketing hit since the demand has risen and many restorers are restoring them and selling like Cyber Sax for example. So there has to be money in it. Wat I think is very interesting is that nobody knows who actually designed this instrument. Wouldn´t be more logical to make a Tenor in C ? That would be something new - at least I have never seen or heard of a Tenor in C. Any of you guy´s heard of or seen one ?!?!?!
(Decided to add this as a new topic - C Melody reproduced)

[fluga]

Sorry ! Accidentally posted the same again !!

[mossite]

Greetings !
...... Wat I think is very interesting is that nobody knows who actually designed this instrument.

That is not quite true. Adolpf Sax designed and manufactured the first Saxophones in the key of "C". He produced the first somewhere around 1856-1886. At least 4 of them still exist today. 1 in Russia,1 in Frankfurt and 2 somewhere in the States.

[Randall]

Concerning the Vito C-mel....Has it occured to anyone else here that because it was Vito, maybe that is why it was a flop?

H think a JK or a Cannonball or Unison c-mel would be a hit....
But then again, price would make the difference in sales, I dare say.

[JMac]

In trying to answer my own question on the horn in A, I came across this tidbit written by our own Paul Cohen back in 1980: http://www.classicsax.com/asi/falto.pdf .
In support of mossite above, the brief history section indicates "Originally, the saxophone was conceived in two families - orchestral (F& C) and band (E-flat and B-flat). The very first saxophone - the bass - was in C, and was the instrument used by Berlioz in his Hymne Chant Sacre of 1843 (transcribed for instruments of Adolphe Sax). The first orchestral use of the saxophone by Kastner in 1844 ( le Dernier Roi de Jude) also used the C bass."

Regarding the "A"- horn - "...Conn made at least on(e) soprano saxophone in A, in addition to developing g the Strobe-O-Conn."

I would highly recommend reading the article if you have the time, it gives an excellant overview of early saxophone history, IMHO.

[paulwl]

[quoting Paul Cohen] "...Conn made at least on(e) soprano saxophone in A, in addition to developing the Strobe-O-Conn."
Ralph Morgan, whose dad worked at Conn in those days, is sure it never happened. It was probably confused with the "stretch 18M" Bb sop. This had such a total redesign in bore and tonehole placement that it plays nearly 1/2 tone flat (though not in tune with itself) with most mouthpieces.

[Pete]

... additionally, Paul Cohen, in several different Saxophone Journal articles (for instance, Spring 1986, Vol. 11 #1), says the A sop. is a myth:

The myth of the A soprano is one that continues despite the overwhelming lack of evidence to support its existence.

Yes, I know that later the Saxophone Journal prints a picture of an alleged Conn A sop. in the Summer 1985 issue, in the article entitled, "Rare & Unusual Saxophones in New England". Odd that it looks exactly like the "stretch" 18M :).

fluga, I believe the company was Yanagisawa, not Vito, that made the "modern" C horns. They also made a low A soprano for awhile. Keilwerth prototyped a few low A basses. There have been a couple different sopranissimos made by several different companies (Eppelsheim, currently) in several different keys: Bb definitely, but I believe there were a couple prototypes in G or D.

(By the bye, please don't cross-post. Its against the rules :wink:.)

EDIT: back on topic, I asked Benedikt Eppelsheim, the creator of the glorious Tubax contra/subcontra instruments (as well as a whole host of others), if he would make a modern C melody, C soprano or C sopranissimo. Answer: No market and too much supply of fairly decent vintage horns.

It is possible -- and quite expensive -- to retrofit any C body with modern keywork, just as it's possible to make a straight C melody out of an existing horn (see Wade Walker's C Melody Page).

I dunno. I love the sound of the C instruments. I'd love to play a factory Selmer S80III C melody, for instance, but I doubt that'll happen.

(Don't count out Jim Schmidt's C Contralto design, tho :))

[fluga]

Greetings !
...... Wat I think is very interesting is that nobody knows who actually designed this instrument.

That is not quite true. Adolpf Sax designed and manufactured the first Saxophones in the key of "C". He produced the first somewhere around 1856-1886. At least 4 of them still exist today. 1 in Russia,1 in Frankfurt and 2 somewhere in the States.

Well That I did not know. But are these instruments with the same bore and bell length as the Conn and Buescher saxophones ??

[fluga]

Fluga I believe that it was Yanagisawa not Vito

Well I am sure that I read that it was Vito since the person who wrote this article did state that mr. Vito told him personally that this was a complete marketing failure. I will try to find this article and post it since it was very interesting.

Sorry about the cross posting :? I am new 8) here on SOTW and learning slowly :oops: :oops: :oops:

[bariman]

Aren't Vito and Yani closely related, marketing wise?

Bariman

[1st SaxDude]

The Vito & Vani Horns are marketed through the LeBlanc Company.

[bruce bailey]

There were Vitos for decades before the Yana horns and some were made in the US (Buescher?) and others in France probably at Leblanc or one of its companies like Noblet (who made C Clarinets and F Basset horns).

[Pete]

Vito was made in the States for quite awhile, actually, and not by Buescher.

The French-made Vitos are actually quite decent horns and were produced by Beaugnier, a company that Leblanc summarily purchased. The major issue with Leblanc-made saxophones is that they have some very odd keywork design: hinged plates and odd springs. The patents look great, but I think they were a bit cumbersome to use, in practice.

In the late 60's (I'm too lazy to look up the actual date), Leblanc went on a buying spree which eventually ended up with the purchase of Martin, Beaugnier, Noblet, Holton, Vito and a couple of other companies. They also entered into a contract to market the Yani horns -- and some of the Vitos produced in theses years were Yanis (not very high quality Yanis, mind you, but Yanis nonetheless) that looked an awful lot like a Mark VI.

Aside: I seem to remember a rumor about Yani or Yamaha actually purchasing the Mark VI tooling from Selmer. Heimer/Parker did this with the SML Gold Medal tooling and proved that good tooling + bad craftsmanship + bad materials = junk horn.

Mr. Vito Pascucci was the former president of Leblanc. He died recently.

Noblet was a completely seperate company until Leblanc purchased them. They had a seperate facility.

[bruce bailey]

Thanks for the info! Do you know who made the US Vitos? As far as the Mark VI tooling, I had heard (from a Selmer salesman in 1980) that the US AS100 was made with the Mark VI tooling and it did seem similar, but you know how salesmen are!!! When I worked in retail in 1970 we sold King, Leblanc and Olds saxes and each one had its merits but I liked the Olds the most and it was $235 vs. about $400 for the others. I remember we had some of the Leblanc Paris models with all of the keywork foibles and I kind of liked them but the price was about 20% higher than the Selmer. Vito the man was quite an individual and at Christmas, he bought expensive tailored suits for the buyers at the big dealers. He was a great supporter of the school music dealers and really put some nice products and accessories on the market. When he walked into a room, it was like seeing a movie star as he had such a charismatic way.

[AbrahamFackle]

[quote="fluga"]Wouldn´t be more logical to make a Tenor in C ? That would be something new - at least I have never seen or heard of a Tenor in C. Any of you guy´s heard of or seen one ?!?!?!
[quote]

A C-mel IS a C Tenor.

[Stacey]

I actually have three tenors -

1. A Bb tenor made by Cannonball in 2003
2. A C tenor made by Conn in 1919

3. And an ultra-rare Eb tenor made by Selmer in 1980, which plays an amazing step-and-a-half higher than my C-tenor.

[bariman]

:lol:

Bariman

[AbrahamFackle]

I have a piccolo tenor which plays an octave higher then a standard one.

[Roger Aldridge]

I'm not meaning to drudge up an old discussion that some of us had about the name "C tenor" versus "c-melody". But, it's important to understand that the c-melody has a bore design that's very different from that of a Bb tenor. The length of a c-melody bore is close to a tenor's. But, it's diameter is much smaller. In fact, it's close to the diameter of an alto's bore. In this respect the bore of a c-melody is unique among the other members of the saxophone family. This is one of the reasons why a c-melody has a different type of sound than a tenor or an alto. With this in mind, I pefer to call the instrument by the name c-melody rather than C tenor. Truly, my old Conn c-melody simply doesn't play or sound like a tenor.

[Roger Aldridge]

PS,

Abraham, I'm confused by your reference to a "piccolo tenor". Are you talking about a soprano saxophone? The Bb soprano (straight or curved) is pitched an octave higher than a Bb tenor.

[bariman]

Right over his head!!!

Bariman

[tensopbass]

And I play contra-tenor!!!

BTW I have a Chu melody that plays better than a modern horn

[Randall]

And I, sub-contra tenor! :lol:
I also play a manually operated pitch approximator (MOPA).... :wink:

[cmelodysax]

Stacey - I just read your posting (quote) "an ultra-rare Eb tenor made by Selmer in 1980, which plays an amazing step-and-a-half higher than my C-tenor"

My alto - in Eb - plays a step-and-a-half higher than my C-Mel. I'm now confused, are you saying Selmer made (effectively) an alto sax shaped like a tenor.. ? Or a tenor sax based around an alto, is it 'April first' already..?

Regards, Alan.

( By the way, I have a 'sort of' tenor in Eb. I bought - very cheaply - what I thought was a stencil C-Mel on ebay, for spares. It looked slightly funny in the photo's, turned out to be an alto with a curved C-Mel neck !! Worth the small price for the neck alone..... :) )

[bariman]

I think what she means is that she has an alto. Man, you guys wouldn't see a joke coming if it walked up and slaped you in the face!

Bariman

[Roger Aldridge]

Stacey's a dude, man. :lol:

[bariman]

My mistake! Ok, then...

I think what he means is that he has an alto. Man, you guys wouldn't see a joke coming if it walked up and slaped you in the face!

Bariman

[cmelodysax]

Bariman - at least we can tell 'male' from 'female'....

Anyway, Stacey's from Arizona. Folks from Arizona don't have a sense of humour, especially after overhauling a Conn C-Melody :D

Hiya Stacey !

[bariman]

That little mistake is gonna haunt me...

Bariman