Merits of the High F# key

[Bootman]

Interested in thoughts on the relative merits and demerits of the HIgh F# key.

Does the high F# key add any benefits to the saxophone or is it just a superflous key that gets in the way?

Is it anything more than a selling point?

[Thomas]

Not a fan of the high F# key. I don't see that it adds much if any benefit to the top of the horn or altissimo range and at it's worst can be intonationally detrimental to especially the top of the horn. Downright stupid on a soprano. The F# key was not an option when I started. I have horns with and without it and though I use it when it's there,sometimes, I do not miss it on the horns that don't have it. It would not affect my decsion to get a particular horn.

[Mike Ruhl]

I vote for superfluous.

[Harrell]

I use the high F# key on my tenor. I'm not a fan of altissimo so I appreciate having they F#. Having it takes the high F# out of 'altissimo' range, at least the way I think of it.

[kcp]

I never used the high F# on my first sax (it didn't have any) and I still don't use it on my other saxophones with high F#. Maybe I would be more inclined to used that key if there was one on my first sax? Don't know, but it's very rare that the music I play exceeds the normal range of the saxophone. So my vote goes to superflus

[Riff]

After playing without one for over 30 years I really don't think I need it for any reason but now that I have one on my SX90R I do use it.
I find it does make the high F# more easily accessible during improvisation. I suspect that it was added to the horn for the sake of the classical literature that calls for this note. This is the same reasoning I suspect that a high G key is now being added to some sopranos and altos.

On the down side, I find that if you want to transition from high F# to high G, the F# key actually makes this more difficult. In this situation I still use the "old fashioned" altissimo fingering for F#.

[Cameron Wigmore]

I play a lot of fast jazz lines that run into the altissimo. I never had a horn with high F#, so I don't miss it. I can navigate just fine using front high F to go to a few different F# fingerings, or side F too. It seems easy to me because that's how I learned.

[singlereed]

I would not want an alto without it. Not especially bothered on tenor or sop, but for some reason on alto, the front F/side Bb fingering never speaks that clearly for me, and I have found this on a number of different set-ups. I don't use it for anything else other than F#.

[max]

I used to play a tenor with high F#, but my main horn now doesn't have one. The only thing I even slightly miss is using it for a stable altissimo G (LH1, side Bb, high F#).

Similarly, I used to play a Ser III sopranp with high F# and G. My "new" soprano (without even a front F) plays F# much better as an altissimo note than the Selmer did as a keyed note. (you know, I never tried the altissimo fingering on the Selmer - maybe it would work better...)

[averageschmoe]

on my tenor i use it all the time, and for me the key really helps me to play high g (same fingering max pointed out). i'm not going to trade my high f# tenor for a horn that plays only slightly better with a high f. and at the same time i'd still probably pick my tenor just for the ergonomics (yamaha yts875).

[tomsch]

The funny thing is I use the F# key for G3 but not F#3. I could get along without it but it does make for an easy G3.

[Dave Dolson]

Bootman: I never use it in public. I keep my sops in the mid and low ranges. DAVE

[Andrew]

I've been used to playing w/fork keys for a while...I just got a Series III Soprano sax (the one with the nifty High G key), and frankly, other than just to try out the High F# and High G keys, I don't use them at all. I still revert to my usual fork key. I think it's just habit.

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't want to play an alto or tenor without an F#, is a must have(altho on my old BA & Cigar cutter tenors, just try to get along without it, but would love to have one on these, and sometime may just add F# to these, if i ever get around to it)

* Only way to get a true F#(yes, i know about the other fingerings)
* Best high G fingering i know of uses the F#.
* Also good for trilling, too :)

Sometimes tough to find on the old horns, but still worth looking for...

[Andrew]

High G Fingering w/F# Key? Can you post what that is? I've never seen a fingering for High G using the F# Key. Maybe that key will actually get some use if it's more convenient than the one I use.

[Harrell]

Look up, Andrew. Max & schmoe discussed it.

[Bootman]

For me it is a Superflous key, a waste of space. I suspect that it is a selling point used to con younger players.

The F# key is useless for transition from F# to higher altissimo playing. I play fast and well into the altissimo all the time and have never needed a high F# key. The older horns without this keywork seem to play and speak more cleanly into the altissimo. I have noticed this across all the saxes. It is a key I never use and would happily have it removed from any of my modern horns.

[max]

My solution has been to simply remove my modern horns altogether. :wink:

I don't really notice a difference in altissimo response between my two tenors (vint w/o and mod w). I do notice it between my two sopranos (and I will sell the Ser III in a few weeks...).

My main beef with it -- epecially on the sop -- is all the added plumbing. The Ser III is just dense with rods and posts and all sortsa stuff to support the high F# and G keys. Just more stuff to get out of alignment, and another place (or two!) to leak...

[JL]

I don't have an F# key on any of the horns I play, and I play high F# regularly (you know how all those guitar players like E concert which is F# on the tenor), so I guess I'd call that key superfluous.
For F#, I use octave key, LH 1,3, RH 1 and Eb key. Hits it every time and in tune. By the way, does anybody else have to pick up the horn to write out altissimo fingerings? It's funny, I can't think of them very well unless I actually pick up the horn and finger the note in question.

[madav]

it's most useful for the high G which becomes a LOT easier. Not really superfluous, more a nice extra.

I don't really subscribe to the theory that horns play better when they don't have the high F# since the damned thing is cloed most of the time !

[singlereed]

Could it be that the F# tone hole actually makes it harder to play F# with front F and side Bb? I have heard that some people prefer the sound of Mark VIs without the F# key, because the hole sits at a node and degrades the tone. I'm not sure, as surely other holes on any sax are on a node aren't they?

I wholeheartedly agree that use of the F# key gets in the way when you are going higher up, which is why I practice playing alto with front F/side Bb, however, it resolutely remains difficult on my serie III and JK altos, it was also difficult on a Mark VI (no high F#) that I had on trial, and on a Couesnon I used to own. For some reason it's as clear as a bell on my daughter's Yamaha student horn, and was also easy enough on the old YAS 25 I started on and on a Buffet S1 I used to have. I've never had any trouble at all with this note on tenor, soprano or bari. Perhaps I should quit messing with girls' horn, eh Bootman :?

[Bootman]

Definitely stop using the tiny horn, play the same parts on Bass sax. This will really impress people.

[KJ]

I use it all of the time for high G. The fingering that works best for me is lH f spatula key (by itself) and the high F# key. very stable and predictable- although it only works on tenors....

[Cameron Wigmore]

As I said b4, I don't have a high F# on my axe, but I pop out high G easily enough.
LH 1, LH 3, RH 1, RH altf# trill key. you know, the key we never use. I sneak into G by playing High F# with the fingering above, but with out the third finger on the alt f# trill key, (it's the pad by the thumb rest).

[JL]

Hi G is kinda difficult and if you can get it with the F# key, that may be a reason to have one. However, with some practice, I now find G3 to be pretty easy, using front F and side Bb. That gives me a G, not the F# that singlereed seems to suggest. I'm speaking about tenor. The key (no pun intended) for getting G3 is not to overblow. You need just the right voicing with throat, tongue, etc.

[JL]

Just tried out Cam's fingering. That one works pretty well, also, but not quite as strong as the front F, side Bb, at least on my horn. By the way, I use that alt F# trill key quite a bit, lol.

[Bootman]

Tenor fingerings that work across a whole range of different brands are

F#3 OK, Front F, side Bb, RH1 (F key)
G3 OK, Front F, side Bb

These fingerings work on Conn, Selmer, Yamaha, Yanagisawa and late Martin Bari's as well. For the Buescher and Martin Handcraft models you need to use the F# fingering above and for G3, OK LH1, side Bb (LH3 is optional).

For Alto
F#3 OK, Front F side Bb works on all brands that I hve tried, old and new.
G3 OK, Front F, side Bb and RH1 (F key). It even works on Selmers although OK, LH1, 3, side Bb, RH1 is best on Yanagisawa and Selmer models.

For Soprano with a Front F key, the alto fingerings work well.

For Soprano without a Front F key
F#3 OK, Palm key F, LH1, LH2, side Bb, (RH1 is optional)
G3 OK, Palm Key F. LH1. side Bb, Rh1 (F key)

Note that none of these fingerings use a high F# key, they all work well across all brands of horns, some with and without Front F keys, some with and without high F# keys.

[David A.]

I think that it's a great thing for students who aren't advanced, and even sometimes for advanced students it would make sense to use it if getting the fork F# is too difficult. But once you start working on altissimo scales, and such, then I think that it should be avoided as much as possible.

[KJ]

well if you're that much of a purist, I'd imagine that you wouldn't condone the use of the front F key either....

[Paul Coats]

The high F# key, to me, is a valuable addition. However, I don't use it in combination with the other palm keys for the palm key high F#. That is a very useless, dead end fingering.

High F# is easily played on soprano, alto, and tenor, using the normal fork F fingering, and adding the high F# key.

For G3 on soprano and alto, Octave key, front F key, RH1, and high F# key.

For tenor G3, Octave key, LH1 (the B key, not front F), side Bb, high F# key.

These fingerings are easily played in combination with fork E and fork F fingerings.

[GHawk]

I've had MkVI's without a high F# (tenors). I have an SA80II tenor now, and the high F# is indispensable. I use it for F# and G3. It makes life a lot easier when playing that formerly pesky G3.

[Joseph Boucher]

I came into sax playing in the mid 50s. My earlier horns didn't have this feature. I learned to play without it. My newer horns have this feature but I am not used to using it and the type of music I play dosen't call for it. Therefore the high F# key is something that dosen't get used. Some players who improv or play legit may need it, so if horns come with the F# feature it dosen't bother me. Joe.

[1saxman]

I'm the same as Joseph; Learned to play without it, and just don't use it on my newer horns that have it - alto and sop. The high F# is a liability on a Mk VI tenor, because the horn was designed without it. The F# was continued as an 'add-on' option as it had been on the earlier two models. The first tenor designed with the F# was the Mk VII, and we all know how wonderful THAT was. Perhaps the Series II and III have it right, but I still don't like the look or weight of the extra linkage for a key that I don't use anyway. I'm one of those who believe the tenor sounds, responds and plays better without the high F#. I use several alternate (old) fingerings for it and do okay. I was fortunate in finding a very nice Mk VI tenor a few years ago without the key. This is my third Mk VI tenor, and hopefully the last tenor I'll need. On the other hand, there are many famous players who use the key and won't have a horn without it, so I guess it's just a matter of preference.

[Razzy]

I learned to play without it, and my only horn that has it (and coincidentally my only horn made in the last 20 years!) is my soprano, a Yamaha 675. I don't use it on that either. It's just extra, and I've never come across a soprano part in classical or jazz music or anything that required this key. Nor would I want to use it in improvisation either!! I rarely go even to D3 when I improvise on the sop, and my listeners always thank me for it :wink: But, for example, on bari, I regularly go to the high G in improvisations. It sounds really cool especially if I'm in the key of A.... ah yes that wonderful fullbodied b7, the G3 on bari... how I long for thee... I mean...

[kevvieg]

MY earlier horns didn't have it, though my current alto, soprano, and bari all have the F# key. I play the F# using LH 1&3 and RH 1. To go to G I just overblow a B natural on bari, and use the front F alone on alto and tenor. Soprano altissimo is superfluous in and of itself. 'nuff said.

[Riff]

When I first got my Series III alto I found that G3 was rather difficult to achieve compared to my Mark VI.
A year later I got my SX90R tenor and discovered the same thing.
Considering that both new horns have the high F# key while my Mark VI doesn't makes me wonder if the F# key somehow makes G3 more difficult to obtain than on older horns that don't have that key. (I also find G3 easier on old Bueschers and Conns)

On both the Series III alto and SX90R tenor I had to adjust (relearn) my embouchure technique to get into the altissimo. On the other hand, the fingering of OK-LH1-side Bb-high F# works well for G3 on both the new horns. But, as I mentioned ealier the use of this fingering for G3 makes the transition into the altissimo more difficult. That's why I found it easier to adjust my embouchure and use my Mark VI fingerings for this transition. The only change I made on the SX90R is that G3 is more in tune without the octave key so I just use front F and side Bb for G3.

I have to admit that I'm somewhat surprised that many of you seem to use the front F key for E3 and F3. I find this fingering to be stuffy sounding and out of tune. I literally never touch the front F except for 4 altissimo fingerings- F#3, G3, D4 and D#4.

[hornstar]

The F# key does give a solid G3, and a nice trill between F# & G, but I find the notes TOO stable for my tastes. Fingerings which rely more on control of embouchure, throat, and harmonics give me more possibilities for pitch and tonal control; less stable means more flexible.
My favorite F#3 & G3 fingerings, below, allow me to trill easily using the Bis key: F#3: LH: AltF RH: side Bb
G3: LH: AltF Bis RH: side Bb
These provide me with wide latitude in pitch and tonal color variations. I can also get the stable note, sounding as if keyed in the normal range, with more focused embouchure.

[sessionsax]

I use it for altissimo high G on tenor. It makes the G a little brighter and less muffled. I don't use the key on alto or soprano though.

[hodges1]

my own opinion is that the high f# key is set up wrong and is more of a hinderance than a help. it prevents us from learning the natural way of playing the f# and falling into place with the rest of altissimo. i have some horns that have it and some that don't. what is further amazing is that at the factory during manufacturing is that they don't apply a huge amount of cork or manufacture the key so that it only opens a slight amount so that it doesn't go out of tune. the key is poorly designed and the small hole when the key is naturally pressed, opens too widely, causing the key to go out of tune very easily. in the short term, this can be alleviated by having a nice piece of corked applied by a repairman on the lever of the key so that the key does not open as much, only slightly.

[Big Nick]

Another way to put this discussion, of course, is to say:
Who believes that saxophones reached perfection in the 30s/40s/50s (or whatever) and no further innovation should be attempted and who believes that research should continue into making the instrument easier to play, more in tune, etc.?
I've got high F# on all my saxes and use it. I know there are fingerings that don't need it (which I also use) but I like the choice and variety of sound qualities that it brings.
Why pick on F# anyway? Since all the palm key notes can be covered using harmonics you can get rid of all of them! :lol:

[Riff]

Why pick on F# anyway?

'cause he's the new kid on the block? :lol:

I've got high F# on all my saxes and use it. I know there are fingerings that don't need it (which I also use) but I like the choice and variety of sound qualities that it brings.

I agree. This is what I meant when I said in an earlier post that I use it during improv. I think it's a much better sounding F# than the usual altissimo fingering and if I just need to pop off a quick F# during a solo I'll use this key. If I'm continuing on further into the altissimo I use the front F/RH1-Bb fingering.

[Anonymous]

I've found that a folded matchbook cover stuffed under the key, pretty much makes this a moot point!

For those who prefer their moots a bit rounded, you could just glue it shut!

All these suggestions assume, of course, that the key is located in a place where a great deal of furious musical activity takes place, thus cramping the technique of the non-user! My personal style just ignores it's existence...maybe it's the Zoloft!

[MojoBari]

I only have it on my alto, so I have to think about using it. I recently played a show that had some palm key repeated lick that went up to F# a bunch of times. Something like Eb-F-F# repeated fast. I ended up using the F# key but I would have figured out how to do it without it. Its just another aux key. Good for web forums.

[Bootman]

I prefer to be a ludite where the F# key is concerned. If you're horn is stuffy without using the F# key, time for an old horn.... :lol:

I like Fudd's approach, ignorance of this key is usually how I approach it..........