Powell flute question for Dave Kessler and Gordon

[MichaelWard]

I was interested to read that Dave Kessler rates the Powell Conservatory
flute highly because I bought a new one recently . I have always played covered hole flutes but am trying to change gradually and with a lot of difficulty to open hole.
My point is that with the "Plug O's" in, the flute is very stuffy, unresponsive and under powered and has a lot of resistance but out ,even with a couple out, it feels as far as I can tell much better.I've had it checked and it's seating fine. Unfortunately I got the Philharmonic head( I didn't know there was a choice ) which I find very difficult to get comfortable on.(I thought I'd get used to it , big mistake )I have to keep getting my 20 year old funky Yamaha out just to reassure myself I can play .
I think the lesson is that maybe an open hole flute is just that and plugging the holes really can't be done.without screwing it up Maybe I should try a Boston head and the Philharmonic's the problem.
Any advice Dave, Gordon ? Thankyou

[Gordon (NZ)]

I don't know the flute concerned.

To my knowledge, open holes have two theoretical effects......
a. Increase venting for the low end of the air column for 5 notes. This, theoretically, if there would be otherwise insufficient venting, would make notes clearer.
b. Cause greater interruptions to the smoothness WITHIN the container of the air column, i.e. an extra step up to the finger, e.g. when playing G there are two steps up to the 2nd & third fingers respectively. This should have only detrimental effects on playing.

......and two practical effects, both negative:
c. The distinct possibility of leaks along the fingerprint grooves, between the fingers and the perforated key cups. This would damage tone and response, worse as more fingers are involved.
d. Considerable extra problems during servicing, because of the less than satisfactory method by which pads are retained. Satisfactory in retaining pads, but unsatisfactory from a perspective of efficiency of servicing, and potential damage & unreliability created during servicing. (This because it can be almost impossible to remove pads for adjustment purposes without crushing them somewhat, which in itself damages adjustment. There is also the potential for leaks past the pad retainers)


If plugging the holes makes a perceptible detrimental difference to the tone, the only reason I can think of is that there is not enough venting - the keys do not open far enough, or the plugs do not seal.

If plugging them makes a difference thus, then that difference could occur ONLY for 5 specific notes of the scale where the holes could affect venting. Bb, A, F#, F, E. In reality, most flute makers have the pads opening far enough that this is not an issue. With such large tone holes (compared with the bore diameter), a far less aggressively vibrating air column, and good venting, this is not the issue it can be with clarinet or sax.

If you think there is a GENERAL change, then I think you could seriously consider that your mind is playing tricks on your mind. The human mind is extraordinarily good at that!

[Ivy]

Michael,

I play the Powell "Philharmonic cut" headjoint and I loved it for the past 2 years. I tried all the other cuts and found that the Philharmonic (most popular cut) suits me perfectly but everybody is different. The "Boston" cut is designed for extreme playing-(20th century music), and the now discontinued "Traditional" cut favors the old Powell headjoints with very high resistance response. The nice thing about Powell is that you can exchange any headjoint that you have for a full year after a new instrument purchase. Every handcut headjoint plays differently. Contact Powell or your dealer about this. It is possible that you have a "dud" head, if so try another one.

I doubt that this is your problem because you seem to have the problem only when you have the plug O's on the flute. The problem could lie on a leak with one of the plugs. Have another flute player who is used to open holes try the flute with the plug O's on and off. It would be a shame to judge the whole flute when the culprit is with the plug O's.

It usually takes a couple of months to get used to a new flute/headjoint.

good luck!

[MichaelWard]

Thanks for the help guys. Gordon you might have something with the mind thing. When I posted I was in a serious funk because of frustration( think knees and bent flutes ) but when I picked it up later it wasn't quite as bad as I made out though I still think I'm having to work way too hard ( as a doubler I don't like that ! )

I definitely think I need to try the Boston head which I've been told by a specialist dealer in London is easily the most popular Powell headjoint here with the opposite being true in the US. I ordered the flute through my local none specialist woodwind dealer who didn't know about the head options but I should have taken more care with such an expensive purchase . Anyway all's not lost Thanks again.

[sebastian17]

I have not tried Powell heads myself. But my friend told me Boston is the most common and normal head, whereas Philharmonic has bigger cut and is suitable only for orchestral players who want bigger volume, but harder to play for beginners.

he doesn't think Boston is for 20th century music only, because if you look at Louis Lot flutes, the EH is much smaller in the old days. And now days, the EH is cut bigger and bigger to give more volume, but lesser resistance and lesser sweetness in tone, especially the American flutes. If look at the overcut of the Japanese EH, it is rounder and sweeter than American flutes, therefore the tone of Japanese flutes are known for their sweetness.

Correct me Gordon if I am wrong.

[MichaelWard]

Thanks Ivy and Sebastion . I really think the head could be my problem. It has a broader ,more angled plate than I'm used to and I find it hard to centre my emboucher consistantly .I've played the flute for quite a long time mostly on Yamaha and Pearls and never had any problem centering before but the Philharmonic's not for me, although when I get it right I can hear the amazing quality and potential in the instrument .it's just difficult to relax when you are uncomfortable. I'll try the Boston.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I really don't think one can generalise too much about what head is for what music, other than to say that in some situations certain heads just don't have the volume.

On a head capable af high volume, I'm quite sure any capable player is capable of playing quietly and sweetly. On the other hand perhaps one could say that a head INcapable of high volume 'defaults' to either soft and 'sweet' (are they actually synonyms, I wonder?) with no effort from the player.

And I certainly would not like to generalise about Japanese made heads. The Yamaha catalogue alone gives options of 9 different heads for its high end models. I know that Sankyo also has a wide range. I doubt your friend has tried all of these.

Personally, I have experienced a wide range of tone variety on high end Japanese flutes, and perhaps a smaller range in the American flutes, but I have played only about 15 American ones.

The size of the modern embouchure hole certainly has a bearing on the volume available, and there are undoubtedly several other factors that contribute.

Regarding resistance: This word is bandied around a lot, but what EXACTLY does it mean? Does it mean anything other than the instrument's reluctance to respond the way a player wants it to respond, such that the player has to put in more effort? In which case, why would ANY capable player seek an instrument with resistance higher than necessary? Wouldn't that be like a driver of a car having a governor on the speed, or a time delay on response to the accelerator being pressed.

I can understand a responsive instrument 'scaring' a beginner, but I cannot imagine why a CAPABLE player would seek it.

[sebastian17]

:lol:

[bruce bailey]

One of the main factors in the Powell heads is the roll-off of the front (audience) side of the head. You may want to experiment with rolling in or out a bit as the outside resistance may be different from what you were using before. Is this the model 2100?

[MichaelWard]

No Bruce it's the model that's replaced it , the Conservatory.It's a handmade flute with drawn tone holes .The next up is the Custom with soldered toneholes.

[MichaelWard]

No Bruce it's the model that's replaced it , the Conservatory.It's a handmade flute with drawn tone holes .The next up is the Custom with soldered toneholes.

[bruce bailey]

It must be the one that has the key kickers that hit the rib rather than the body (has a wood case). These blow pretty well and I think the head is worth spending some time with as many of my customers have gotten good results. The heads I make tend to be more resistant and a little harder to control, but I think the Powell head will work out with time!

[MichaelWard]

thanks , I'm going to try a Boston head as soon as I can get down to London.

[DaveKessler]

Sorry I hadnt posted earlier... I actually just found this thread today! :)

We prefer the Boston cut. We find it brighter and more responsive for our likings. However, the Philharmonic cut is no slacker. We have been very impressed with both cuts.

I think that you may not be putting enough air in to really get comfortable with the Phil cut. It does require a good amount of Power and if you are finding your Yamaha easier to play, I think that helps support that theory.

Also, there is a good possibility that your flute is not properly setup. Just like Selmer, sometimes Powells need a good amount of setup before they play right. Sometimes, they are perfect straight from Powell.

Also, with the Powells, make sure that you are having a flute specialist adjust it. The Powells use Straubinger pads which are really tricky to work with. I have seen some really sad work done on Powells by non specialist technicians on Straubingers (like techs trying to put deep seats in the pads). This can lead to HUGE problems.

Overall, my guess is that it is either one or both of those issues. Have a good tech look at it first. Then try the Boston headjoint.

[Michael Ward]

Thanks Dave for your reply. I'll follow through with your suggestions.

[bruce bailey]

Straubinger pads won't take heating to seat. The material under the pad skin is just too soft and will go really quick when heated. I agree that you need to have these done by an expert. I just took in a Powell that was repadded in 2000 and I had to change all of the pads as only 2 were still skinned. A Powell really can't be adjusted by the "sight, light and might" way of repairing and must be in the hands of a player-tech.

[Michael Ward]

I've really persevered with playing my Powell open hole and I'm down to just one plug in the D key , It's been incredibly frustrating having played closed hole for a long time and my right hand still needs correcting often but when it's good it's an amazing instrument with a huge sound and potential. Plugged it's nowhere near as responsive and I've given up trying to fathom why but open it's a truely superb instrument. Thanks for all the help.

[transversed]

Being sax players, I won't expect you to know this... (I'm a flute performance major in my junior year of study)

It sounds like either the headjoint cork is leaking or the solder of the chimney (the walls of the hole you blow into) is leaking. To test this, plug the end of the headjoint with your right hand while holding it with your left, and with your mouth, suck some of the air out to create a vaccuum, and stick your tongue in. If the vaccuum seal holds for five seconds, your headjoint is not leaking. If it loses vaccuum, you have a problem with a broken seal somewhere. Good luck!

[Razzy]

Michael, plugged flutes are inevitably less responsive because you are interfering with the internal bore of the instrument and throwing it out of tune. Unless your "plugs" are somehow paper thin and imitate what the finger does to cover the hole (i.e. only work into the hole a fraction of a millimeter), then yes, the response is going to be affected negatively.

I started on a closed hole and it took me about a week to get used to the open hole, probably because I always practiced with the intention of one day moving to an open hole, paying careful attention to keep my fingers centered in the keys. I treated it as if holes were present.

I had been using an older Powell headjoint on my Yamaha 561 flute for a while, since that is what I was allowed to borrow from a friend at the time. I always struggled with volume, particularly in the lower register, and the headjoint felt "resistant" as is mentioned above. I switched to a Yamaha CY headjoint and my volume in the lowest register immediately improved twofold, with the rest of the flute ringing a bit more true, also. Have been using this headjoint ever since and I get good results with it. Pales in comparison to the Drelinger I am waiting on, however. I also really like the Goosman headjoints, but the Drelinger won me over in the end. May want to give those a try if possible.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I tried some upper level Yamahas about 20 years ago. They were pretty unresponsive. They did not seem much improvement on the student model. My older Muramatsu head was unresponsive too. However I am very impressed with the responsiveness of both Muramatsu and the upper level Yamahas more recently.

I assume that the design, especially the (standard) head, has evolved over the years, even when model numbers did not.

I wonder if your Powell head is the same as the current model(s).

[fluteragious]

Dear Michael,
I also play on a Powell. When choosing a headjoint I almost picked the Boston cut but then changed my mind after trying several other heads and picked out a wonderful Philharomic cut. The newer Solisist cut is also very nice. In my ipinion the Boston is more free blowing and the Philharomic uses more resistance and can be a bit harder to play if you are a doubler. The Solisist I would rate in between the two as far as playability. I mostly play on a David Williams head and it works really well for me on my Powell. You may consider looking into a different brand of headjoint as the Powell heads don't work for everyone. When I tried out Japanese brand of heads on my flute they did not mix very well. They tend to through off the scale of the flute. When trying out different cuts of Powell heads, try out as many as you can even of the same cut as they all vary and no two play alike. Good luck with it!

[JButky]

Also, there is a good possibility that your flute is not properly setup. Just like Selmer, sometimes Powells need a good amount of setup before they play right. Sometimes, they are perfect straight from Powell.

Also, with the Powells, make sure that you are having a flute specialist adjust it. The Powells use Straubinger pads which are really tricky to work with. I have seen some really sad work done on Powells by non specialist technicians on Straubingers (like techs trying to put deep seats in the pads). This can lead to HUGE problems.


I would agree that this is probably the source of the problem. This flute's predecessor, the 2100, probably had the worst straubinger jobs known to mankind (and that flute key cup design was partially designed aroung the straub concept.) The powells nowadays are not at all like the older ones. Straubingers in general are problematic since many of the even "straub certified" techs can't get around the design flaws inherent in the pad. It seems Powell hasn't managed to get it right either.

Have someone who knows what they are doing check that beast for leaks..Get that thing on a magnehelic and have the leaks rung out of it and setup and eliminate that possibility (it's my guess those straubs need to be fully re-setup as well). If you can go back to your yammie with no problem you should not be this frustrated with either the Boston or Philharmonic cut...

Joe B

[Michael Ward]

Thanks for all the imput. I thought this thread was dead. I sold the Conservatory Powell a while ago and bought a closed DS Silver Muramatsu. I am however experimenting with various Powell headjoints which have superior response to the supplied head. At the moment I have a Boston lip silver head at .014 tube thickness that plays very well but I'm looking to try some at.016 for a little more resistance. I don't like the tonal response of the Arumite( Gold/Silver ) models I've tried preferring silver.

[JButky]

Powell headjoints which have superior response to the supplied head. At the moment I have a Boston lip silver head at .014 tube thickness that plays very well but I'm looking to try some at.016 for a little more resistance.

Depending on how much resistance you want, try the .014 silver tube with a gold riser if they have one. It'll add to the price, but well worth it, if that's the amount of resistence your looking for.


Joe B

[Michael Ward]

Thanks if one is available I will. Do you yourself favour that combination?

[JButky]

Do you yourself favour that combination?

I favor all gold myself. <G> But If I couldn't afford all gold, I'd go for at least a gold riser.

Gold risers are all the rage now. They certainly add some warmth to the tone and a bit of resistance. Platinum risers even more so...(and more money...)

Joe B

[bruce bailey]

About 95% of the flutes I make have gold risers. It really adds depth and only adds about $100 to the cost of the flute. More resistance though which is takes some adjustment. Like going to a more open sax mouthpiece or a harder reed.