Bought a Gemeinhardt 2SP 3 Weeks Ago....I'm in LOVE!!!!!

[FrankB2]

I bought it new from an ebay dealer ($269!!!), and after a
few days of embouchure work, I absolutely love this instrument!
In fact, I think I like it better than sax :shock: !

The flute speaks well all the way down to low C, looks fantastic, and
has an unbeatable price. I played a couple of $1,600 Yamaha and
Sonare flutes today, and while they did sound nice, that's pretty
pricey. I've read all the flute doubling posts here (almost), and
I'm thinking of maybe buying a Gemeinhardt 2S (solid silver, plateau),
and giving the 2SP to my niece. Any opinions???? Other contenders
include the Yamaha YFL321, and YFL421. I'm trying to stick with the
plateau keys, but the Sonare I played with an offset G was very
comfortable. No way I'm paying $1,600 for a Chinese flute, however.

Frank
P.S. Lots of B foot flutes out there, but I don't see the need(??).

[Jack W.]

Hah! We've converted someone else to the Dark Side! :D :twisted:

But seriously, the Gemmys have been criticized to some extent for their construction and longevity, but I'd still have to say that they are my pick of the mass-produced American-made flutes. For what that's worth.* I played a 3S for close to 15 years, with zero problems, and should have kept it, but fell victim to the "greener grass" mentality.

You may find it hard to find a plateau key intermediate Gemmy or Yamaha, because of the preference in the US for open holes on all but student flutes. But in any case, the 2S should play very similarly to the 2SP, except have a silver headjoint and body tube. There have been comments about whether the silver or silverplated headjoints play better, but I confess to being an agnostic on the whole thing. If the headjoint is cut well, it should play well, whatever its composition (within reason of course).

As for the Sonare flutes, I gave my review of the model I think you played (Powell headjoint, silver tube, silverplated keys, offset G) in this thread:

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=12029

But I know their model with just a silver headjoint goes for more like $1000. Dave Kessler would know. For the same price point in the Gemmy line, I prefer the KGB Special and 3KSB models.

If you look to the Asian flutes, don't discount the Yamahas of course, or the Jupiter/Dimedici line. I have given my favorable review of these elsewhere too. I have a Dimedici 1011RBS that has had a fairly rough life for nearly five years now, and apart from the G# key getting bent once, it has given me no problems. Basically, the advice would be as for saxes -- try all of them that you can! :)

Usual disclaimer: all of this is just my opinion, your mileage may vary, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. 8)

Keep enjoying that flute!

Best wishes --
-- JW
(erstwhile occasionally called "Flute Boy", by Mike R. and others)
*About 15 cents American (plus tax)

[FrankB2]

Thanks for the Sonare info Jack. I played an open hole Yamaha with
an inline G, and hated it. The Sonare was pulled out, and had an off-set
G which was VERY comfortable. The Sonare was a bit bright and LOUD,
and it was really a toss-up with the Yamaha. I have no doubt that
the Chinese are quite capable of making a fine flute, I just have to wonder
who gets the lion's share of that price ($1600).

Is it worth moving up in the Gemmy line??? I can get a Gemmy 2S
solid silver, plateau for $650 new. I can't find any slop in my 2SP, but
there can be a bit of hiss that Gordon (NZ) noted in another thread.
A bit of focus takes care of that, but the Sonare and Yamaha didn't have
any detectable hiss. Thanks again!

Oh yeah...My son and I know the salesman (went to HS with my son,
awesome sax player, and now a student at Berkley SOM), said that
the Sonares are big sellers.

Frank

[paulwl]

I can get a Gemmy 2S solid silver, plateau for $650 new.
You can do a bit better - I got my 2S for $450 new on eBay from Rayburn's in Boston.

[FrankB2]

That's a great price Paul! Are the Gemeinhardts worth moving up with?
Like I said, I read Gordon's post about hissing and so-so mechanical
workmanship, but my 2SP seems fine. Thanks again!

Frank
P.S. $450???? Man that cheap!!!!

[Jack W.]

Wow, that really is a great price on a new intermediate solid silver flute!

I forgot to comment on the B foot earlier. The B foot is useful to me for playing in church, what with all the songs in E major and similar keys, so that I actually would find myself using it quite a bit. I also feel more secure knowing it's there if I need it, since flute is my main instrument and I do run into orchestral or show tune situations where the low B pops up from time to time. Beyond that, I have to admit that there is no real advantage, and if you are not planning on putting yourself in the position of actually needing a low B, I'd say forget it. The B foot does make certain third-octave notes more difficult also, although the "gizmo" on the low B roller is meant as a C4 facilitator, and generally works well.

If I were stepping up in the Gemeinhardt line, I'd move past the intermediate flutes to the KG Limited or 3KSB models. Although these are open hole and may or may not be available with an offset G (which I'd also recommend unless your hand is shaped in such a way that the inline G is more comfortable). If you're willing to get open holes and plug them, you should be able to get a 3SH for around $450, or a 3S for around $600, if you are patient. (Prices are approximate and without checking current listings.) Although, if you like the 2S, I think it's a steal at $450!

Whether the Sonare is a good investment, probably remains to be seen, once we have more information on their longevity. But if Dave Kessler is right about the arrival of the "age of the disposable musical instrument" (see the thread I linked to previously), then the future of student, intermediate, and conservatory level flutes is in Asia. The exception would be the smaller makers of big ticket handmade flutes, such as Powell, Haynes, Brannen, and Burkart. Many of these makers are in the Boston area and I think there will be a demand for their flutes for the foreseeable future. Even at 8-10 large bills and up, in US currency, per shot! :o

[paulwl]

That's a great price Paul! Are the Gemeinhardts worth moving up with?
I dunno...my flute playing isn't going anywhere since I bought this guitar... :?

[Gordon (NZ)]

From working on and playing many student Gemeinhardts and a few higer models, it is my impression that a silver Gemeinhardt is a student Gemeinhardt made from different metal, making little difference to the rather fuzzy, limited-volume tone.

A high quality flute needs many minute acoustic details attended to, not just a different metal. I have never played a Gemeinhardt that convinces me that Gemeinhardt has ever produced a model that is in the echelons of the pro-standard flutes.

It is also my impression that very few, if any, accomplished players play Gemeinhardts, which seems to back up my impressions on their quality.

I find them to be suitably robust for rough student handling.

Am I really missing out on something?

[FrankB2]

Thanks Gordon. I read your post about the Yamaha YFL311, but that's
not available in the USA. Any other recommendations for an intermediate
in the under $1,200 range? The Yamaha YFL 321 *looks* nice on paper,
but there aren't any around to try.

Hey Paul, I've been doubling on classical guitar for the past 3yrs, but
I've let that slide for the past few weeks due to the flute. I'm playing
guitar, but not nearly as much. I also play flamenco guitar. Lots of
instruments to juggle!

Frank

[paulwl]

Don't juggle your instruments. You might break one. 8)

Gordon, please don't take my purchase of a Gemeinhardt as a knowledgeable endorsement. I still don't know my @ss from Thursday about flutes. I basically like it 'cause it's shiny and doesn't feel like a cheap piece of junk (even if it is one). When I get to the Serious Doubler stage, I have a couple of '20s Conns waiting for a repad...

[FrankB2]

Beside the beautiful sound, I love my flute because it's so
easy clean and carry. I like the shiny look as well Paul.
Sax is easier to carry than guitar, but takes more effort to clean,
and my $2,000 French classical could split in the wrong temp and
humidity. Flute is ideal!

Frank

[Gordon (NZ)]

"...The Yamaha YFL 321 *looks* nice on paper,
but there aren't any around to try. "

A pity about that. I suppose you could order from Australia or NZ.
Just joking.

[FrankB2]

Hi Gordon, I can order a YFL321 locally, but I didn't know if your
endorsement of the YFL311 extended to the YFL321. TIA!

Frank

[FrankB2]

HMMMM.....I started this thread by saying I LOVE this flute, so
why am I looking any further :shock: ???? I'll keep this, and
buy my niece another 2SP. I like them!

Frank

[DaveKessler]

I think I might chime in a little here.

Under a $1000, there are 2 flutes in our opinion that Really stick out.

Sonare 5000
Armstrong 800B

I personally prefer the Sonare but some people will not like the fact of the body being made in China. However, as I stated before, the flute is made so well that if I dont tell people that the body is made in China, they wouldnt know. In fact, Sonare/Powell was smart in having the flute say "Made in Beijing" rather then Made in China.

The 800B is a new model released by Armstrong back in August of 2003 at the NFA convention her in beautiful Las Vegas. It is a big step up for them. It replaces the 80B in the line. The 80B (especially with the Thinwall body) was our favorite flute in its category and was our best seller. The improvements on the 800B over the 80B are mainly:

Improved tuning scale - The 800B is set at A442 which is where the major handmade guys do it now.
New "WS" style headjoint cut - The new headjoint cut features more undercutting and less overcutting compared to the 80B models standard P4 cut. The WS cut is MUCH more powerful then its predecessor.
Filed Tone Holes - Oh I LOVE this improvement. By filing the tone holes level, the flute is setup easier and stays in adjustment better. Plus, straight from Armstrong, they now come setup better then ANY flute in its range (which is where Gemeinhardt, in my opinion, falls WAY short).
Thinner Body Ribs - Having a lower profile of body rib means that there is less metal soldered onto to tube allowing it to vibrate better. When coupled with the .014" thinwall body, this is an extremely powerful and full sounding flute.

There are other improvements but those are the main ones. I still prefer the Sonare personally because I find it to be more powerful but the Armstrong is definately the best Major Name Brand flute in its category.

Hope that helps some.

[FrankB2]

Thanks Dave....Now I'm back in shopping mode LOL! The Sonare 6000
series I tried was a powerful flute. The "Made in Beijing" did take a bit
of the sting away. Is the head made outside the PRC???

I'll have to look into the Armstrong flutes as well, especially the 800B you
described. Thanks!

Frank

[DaveKessler]

The headjoint on the Sonares is made in Boston. That is an actual Verne Q. Powell handmade headjoint. Seperately, that is an $860 headjoint. It is the identical headjoint used on the Powell Signature Series flutes (Retail: $3995, sale: $2995).

Thats what makes those such good flutes. Especially the 5000. You are essentially getting the body of the 5000 for only $135.00

[FrankB2]

Thanks Dave. That does sound like a deal!

[Gordon (NZ)]

Hi Gordon, I can order a YFL321 locally, but I didn't know if your
endorsement of the YFL311 extended to the YFL321. TIA!

Frank

The 300 series will all play similarly, except perhaps the 313, 383, & 383H, which are catalogued as "professional" models (but with nickel silver body).

BTW I am not familiar with the Armstrong mentioned, but there have been some reports of disappointment in the mechanical standards of the Sonare, on flute web sites. If the body is not so good, then you will be left with a good body-less head, and if you buy a good body to go with it, will you have to buy a new head with that new body?

Another option - Save for a Muramatsu EX, perhaps second hand. Every time I play one I am very impressed. Galway has stated that he uses one for his practise flute.

[DaveKessler]

I agree that early Sonares had mechanical/body issues.

When Powell first released the Sonare (model 6000 was the only model offered) we evaluated it (this was over 4 years ago). We were not impressed. In fact, we thought the Armstrong 80 and both diMedici models outplayed it. The unique thing about the Sonare setup though is that Powell has more of a direct control over the Asian facilities and regularly goes to China/Taiwan to improve, train & inspect.

We didnt start carrying them until August 2003 because it was at that point that we fealt their flute really hit where it needed to be. The current model 5000 is a difinitively better flute then the original Sonare we sampled 4 years ago.

I concur that the Muramatsu flutes are good as well. Our only real complaint with them is that their tone holes are inconsistent. They could learn from Armstrong's lead and file their tone holes and they would be Much better flutes.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Are you saying that they are filing ROLLED tone holes? This is hardly recommended!
Or are the tone holes unrolled (and therefore Sharp and damaging to pads), or are they soldered on.

Soldered tone holes are a mixed blessing when the solder starts failing and causing difficult-to-trace leaks. Attend to one and the heat involved is likely to compromise the adjacent soldering.

By 'inconsistent' do you mean non-level? I find that almost always, non-level rolled tone holes can be manipulated into level.

[sebastian17]

The headjoint on the Sonares is made in Boston. That is an actual Verne Q. Powell handmade headjoint. Seperately, that is an $860 headjoint. It is the identical headjoint used on the Powell Signature Series flutes (Retail: $3995, sale: $2995).

Thats what makes those such good flutes. Especially the 5000. You are essentially getting the body of the 5000 for only $135.00

Hey, my friend who played flute seriously for 14 years (but poor) just bought a Sonare 5000, he said the same thing as you did. He said he is virtually getting the body for nothing because the supreb Powell Signature Head alone worths the price! (He did a careful 3 month research and testing before purchase) However, he said the mechanics of 6000(assembled in Beijing) is much better than 5000 (made in Taiwan)!!!

[DaveKessler]

However, he said the mechanics of 6000(assembled in Beijing) is much better than 5000 (made in Taiwan)!!!

Both the 5000 & 6000 are made in Beijing. Only the 7000 is made in Taiwan.

I can just about guarantee that it wasnt the actual mechanics of the 6000 that he like better but the feel. This is because the 6000 uses gold wire springs vs. the 5000 using steel wire.

Gordon,

The tone holes are a soldered rim atop of a file tone hole riser. Yes, soldered rims can present a problem later on if they were not assembled well to begin with. We hope that isnt a problem later on but as they come setup from Armstrong, they play Great.

It is always a toss up. The Muramatsu tone holes have been quite unlevel in our experience. Yes you can still make a pad seal to it but it takes longer and also requires the hands of a good technician (which most areas of the country seriously lack). Once this is done, the Muramatsu's are GREAT playing flutes. A little too dark for my liking but still exceptionally good.

[sebastian17]

Thanks for your info. I have tried both with him. I found 5000 keys are much too stiff.

Hey, darn you guys, I am saving for a long time for a Muramatsu DS - which my flute teachers and flute friends highly recommended, now you guys tell me my dream flute has uneven tone holes!! My dream shattered. @#$^&*()

How is Altus, Sankyo and Miyazawa compare to Muramatsu? (my budget is $6000) I find Altus has alot of potential in controling the timbre, but very breath-taking (especially when you try to control the timbre and explore its potential); Sankyo has sweet tones, but very simple in tones; Muramatsu is easy to control, to blow, sweet, warm, good timbre, safe to play with, but not as potential as Altus in making different variation of tones; Yamaha is too easy to make sound, but dynamic range is too narrow, simpleton; haven't tried Miyazawa. Above are my own opinion after trying them for hours.

[DaveKessler]

Out of those I prefer the Muramatsu the most. However, Personally, in that price range I prefer the Powell Handmade Consveratory with a Boston headjoint more.

I find the Powell to be bigger and sweeter playing while the Muramatsu is darker, richer sounding. Personal call but I prefer the Powell myself.

Yes, the tone holes can be uneven, but that can be true for almost every flute maker out there. The trick is to have a GREAT technician to adjust your flute for you. Make sure as well that you get it from a GREAT technician so that you can be assured it is setup prior to you getting it.

[Ivy]

I was talking to Tim Bisiar (one of the most respected flute techs in the Bay Area), and he told me as certified Straubinger pad tech that the Muramatsu flutes are perfect for Straubinger pads because their tone holes are consistently level. Level tone holes are absolutely necessary for Straubinger pads to work.

[Bootman]

Having a great flute tech is a must, they can even make average Flutes stand up and perform wonders. Admitedly a good head joint and a hand made Flute add further dimensions to the sound that can be achieved from a Flute.

Muramatsu's tend to be favoured by those who are of greater physical stature, the brighter daintier sounding Flutes sound great in small ensemble situations but I have noticed that the big powerful, hard to get ringing (in terms of extra breath support) Flutes are better in a louder sonic environment, be this electric or loud acoustic settings.

The best FLute I have ever played was a hand made Lehner solid Gold Flute that was purchased by a lady in Korea, at nearly $40K AUD, it would was too much flute for me, but the sound, the richness and complexity of the tone was something else.

When buying a Flute, approach it the same way as looking for a sax or a clarinet, play everythign you can get you hands on. Fall in love with the sound and response of the most expensive or second most expensive Flute available, check you bank balance and buy one that is in the upper middle area. This is after spending far more than you thought you would spend initially, The world of Flute prices is a very terrifying place, it makes brand new saxes look like chicken feed (price wise).

Best of luck hunting for a Flute. Condolences to your wallet in :roll: advance! :roll:

[sebastian17]

>The world of Flute prices is a very terrifying place, it makes brand new saxes look like chicken feed (price wise).

Hey you got that right, Bootman, my son's flute teacher(a lady graduated from Paris Cons) suggests me to get my son(9 yr old) a flute no less than $6000 or I would be wasting my son's talent. Gee. And I am using Altus 907($1500) & Yani S992($3000) only..............

[sebastian17]

She further suggests me to get my son an at-least 9K Gold FLute if he advances a higher level in future. That is $14,500 at least! Darn, Sax is like a chicken feed your right.

[sebastian17]

One of these days, I'll be getting heart attack if I see my son accidentally drops his flute on the floor.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I think she is talking absolute rubbish.

Perhaps this is her way of trying to impress.

Perhaps she is simply not aware that there are fabulous flutes a lot cheaper.

But that is only my view, based on my personal learnings from playing a great number of customers' flutes, and also hearing their views, and quite a few of them are superb players. (Personally, I am a little rusty now)

[FrankB2]

Just as an update since the first post in this thread, I'm STILL
in love with flute. It could be the 2SP, or any other flute. The
2SP can be hissy like Gordon said, but a good embouchure
pretty much eliminates that. Guess I'll really sound fantastic
when I buy a *dream* flute! Funny thing is, the C on the staff
can be the weak note, the same way it can be on alto sax(???).

I bought "Moody's Mood for Love" yesterday. Jazz flute is
pretty cool in the way it can float above the rhythm section like
a bird, where a tenor sax might come through like a snow plow.
Sort of like Toots on chromatic harmonica, although he can
plow a path when he wants to!

Frank

[Gordon (NZ)]

With the fingering on a sax, there is a REASON for it being a bit dull or weak.... (next tone hole closed after the end of the air column - likewise D)

On a flute I have never noticed this C to be weak, and I cannot think of any reason why it should be. E in the second octave (and maybe its neighbours) is often weaker - Something to do with head compromises I think, but not really a problem on well designed flutes.

[FrankB2]

Gordon, You're right as always. I think my impression of a flabby
C/C# was from the first days of holding the flute. I figured my
embouchure improved, but it's more the way I'm holding the
flute now. The D# on the staff IS a bit weak, at least when I play,
but the E on the staff seems fine.

[Vortex]

I've been trying to develop my flute playing for a few weeks now, and I think I'm getting somewhere. I'm playing a well-adjusted Gemmy 3B, and I had the lip-plate gold plated. I'm really happy with it, especially the sound - I'm learning how to work the embouchure to eliminate that airyness. Admittedly I probably know as much of anything about flutes as paulwl, but this flute is doing what I want it to, and thats what counts.