Double Tounging

[RiehlSax]

Not the Ta-Ka, Da-ga, or what not, I just need to know what to do with the back of my tongue or whatever to get it right. Just any tips will be happily accepted.

Thanks
Tom

[sadist]

i am always having a problem with double tonging... sure i'll need some suggestions...

i heard it ain't easy on reed instruments

[Grantibibitus]

Patience is the key to working this out. It will take months but you'll get it. As I recall when I was first learning to double-tongue my lips would loose their grip on the mouthpiece everytime I made the "kuh" sound. Air would escape and the tone would cease. It was like my cheeks were involuntarily puffing at such speed that I'd loose my embechure instantly.

It turns out that what I needed was MORE air support, or something to that effect. I worked it out by just starting a note with the kuh sound rather than starting with a regular tongue articulation. It sounds trivial but it makes a huge difference. Practice it backward like this for a while. (kuh-tuh, kuh-tuh, kuh-tuh) After some time you'll have your air set to begin notes with kuh. Then you can turn it back around and begin evening things out. It's quite difficult to get the kuh to speak on time so keep after it and don't give up.

As a side note. You'll notice I use "tuh-kuh" rather than "ta-ka". It's for a reason. The ahhh sound requires your mouth to open a little bit, compared with uhhh. In my case it caused difficulty. Just thinking the ahhh vowel sound in my head while playing was altering my embechure.

A drummer hipped me to a little trick once for evening out double strokes. I use a modified version of it for double-tonguing and it works great. I tongue an eighth note triplet followed by a quater note. Try it two or three times single-tongued to get nice and clean. Then double tongue the figure but not the way a trumpet player would tell you to do it: play tuh-kuh-tuh-kuhhhhh (not tuh-kuh-tuh-tuhhhhh.) Work on the reverse of this as well (kuh-tuh-kuh-tuhhhhh.)

Best of luck to ya,
-Grant

[paulwl]

Anybody use (or has anybody tried) "tuddle tuddle tuddle"? I've been getting some success with it as triplets: "tuddle-duh tuddle-duh." The trick is getting the sound to stay strong and not "wow" in pitch when the tounge is in the "dle" (backstroke) position.

[David A.]

Tongue regularly, and for the "ka", bring the middle of your tongue to the roof of your mouth to cut of the air flow. After enough practice, you'll be able to do it well enough to where it sounds like single tonguing.

[AMASAX]

try using syllables 'tea' & 'key', so that the tongue is high in the mouth, and the syllables are produced very far forward, as much towards the tip of your tongue & right behind the ridge above your front teeth. Focuses the air better, also allows for minimal tonge movement

[paulwl]

Tiki tounging...tuku tonguing...tuddle tonguing...
not to mention dugu, lala, yaya, and gurk (Gurk?)... :D

[paulwl]

Tiki tounging...tuku tonguing...tuddle tonguing...
not to mention dugu, lala, yaya, and gurk (Gurk?)... :D

[Bryan Kendall]

If you want to hear fast tounging .....unbelievably fast tounging and clean as a whistle and beautifully musical......then just listen to one of these two guys.

Rudy Weidoft who played C-Melody Saxophone in the 1920s during the saxophone craze. One of the greatest virtuosos of the instrument, ever.

Ted Hegvik who devoted his life to the study and playing of Rudy Weidoeft. His CDs are advertised in Saxophone Journal and in each issue of the catalog. A great virtuoso.

Their tounging will blow your mind. Absolutely incredible.

[Grantibibitus]

Regarding paulwl's post:

Yeah, if you're doing what I think you're doing, I've always called it doodin tonguing: where you touch one corner of the reed with your tongue while the other corner remains vibrating, and when you release there is an articulation.

It can be used for all sorts of things but mostly I use it in order to accent a note on the down beat. A teacher had me play a major scale; starting at the tonic, ascending to the ninth, then decending. The whole phrase was swing eighth-notes (no quarter note to begin.) The articulation instruction was as follows: doo doo-ooh doo-ooh doo-ooh-in doo doo-ooh doo-ooh doo-ooh-in doo (the second lone doo is the ninth.) Rather than just tonguing all of the off beats and slurring the downbeats, the "in" functions as a way to ghost an offbeat and have your tongue already on the reed ready to tongue, and thus accent the downbeat. I use it like this almost any time I've got to accent a downbeat in doubletime licks.

I hope this helps. If I'm talking about something totally different from what you are, let me know. I'm interested in any and all methods of articulation.

-Grant

[Bluemilk262]

i actually went around doing the double tongue stuff w/o my horn. like if im watching tv and stuff. and it helped w/ my double tonguing w/ a sax. also i can whistle louder for some reason. i think its from circular breathing.

[Tim Price]

Try Playing 16th note exercises with just using the ka syllable, and focus on getting it to sound as clean as your single tongueing. Eventually, you should work to play 16ths at 120 beats per minute, then you should have no problem double tongueing.

[Vortex]

I've done something similar to this before. If there's a riff that I know I can't tongue fast enough, I do a sort of "throat stutter" where I just stagger my air flow to make it sound like a tonguing. I can't think of any real syllables that express this, it's almost like a really fast giggle (maybe not, people laugh differently). But it works well, especially in fusion.

[paulwl]

I sometimes do that. I call it "diaphragm articulation" (I do it more or less from the "vocal seat" down thataway). It's very hard to do reliably - it really makes a kind of choking bwap noise at times. And if you think syncing tongue with fingers is hard, try syncing your inner body cavity with your fingers!

[smusax]

"try using syllables 'tea' & 'key', so that the tongue is high in the mouth, and the syllables are produced very far forward, as much towards the tip of your tongue & right behind the ridge above your front teeth. Focuses the air better, also allows for minimal tonge movemen"

Let's modify the syllables slightly. In addition to tea...key use tik..kit for a more pointed sound.

[singlereed]

I go for D-G-D-G... myself and its one of those things you just need to practise. I find now I can practically use it. Not everyone needs double tongueing - I talked about this with Rob Buckland on a workshop and he says he never needs to use it as he has a short tongue that is naturally fast. My daughter's recorder teacher has an astonishingly fast tongue. Lots of us don't, and it's worth learning some strategy for fast tongueing. Be aware there are many actions the tongue can make, each of which has a slightly different contact on the reed, and a different effect on sound and speed. D, G, K, L, N, T are all possibilities. I found in general use, I get a better result with 'D' than 'T' and D-G or D-G-D, D-G-D is better for me for double/triple tongueing than T-K-T.

[Alex]

Anybody notice that RiehlSax said ---->NOT<----- the ta-ka or da-ga kind? Just curious.