Same intonation issues - different horns

[Gange]

Hi,
I'm having issues with my intonation on bari. The reason I ask here is that I have the same issue on two different horns, my own -65 Mark VI to low Bb and a borrowed -55 Mark VI low A. I play the same HR Berg on both which I do like the sound of. It's an old (vintage?) 85/2/M, which I think is more like a 95. I have tried to measure it (cruedly) with a slide calliper. Reeds: Rico Royal 3, Hemke 3,5 or Rico selects 3M, depending on daily mood.

So the problem:
In the second octave, d - g#(lower "octave hole"), I get quite sharp. They are in tune in the first octave. On both horns. Is this a "factory standard" of Mark VI baris?

Of course there are other tones that need adjusting to but since this pattern repeates itself on two different horns I got curious and want to know if someone else has experienced the same thing.

Could it perhaps be a mouthpiece thing (I read the post by mr Coats on mpc chamber size vs pull/push intonation the other day, which I found very interesting btw)?
On the -65 I'm very sharp on third octave E and above, but on the other I'm flat up there, from the d and up. Very flat.

Yes, I do practise long notes, so I'm very well aware of that it might be chops problem (se below). :-)

One more question:
Previously, and on my other horns (soprano/alto/tenor) I'm prefer using mpc:s with medium short facings, and thus not too familiar with mpc with long facings. What could I expect from getting a mpc with a the SMS facing? Soundwise, intonationwise and in flexibility (changing registers, altissimo etc)?
I really do like the sound of my current mouthpiece but I'm having slight problems with the flexibility. I have just started experimented with the altissimo but I think it's comming alright.

[Bootman]

I would be looking at your key height on both Baris, also look at how tight your embouchure is at this point. Most mk vi and low A Baris in general are sketchy intonation wise in the upper end of the second register. Also the best way to play intune on any sax is to hear the note, then play the note and adjust your intonation as you would if you were singing the note. It is more of a throat/ air thing rather than embouchure adjustment.

A lose embouchure is the default on Bari, not tight. A good way to test this out is big drops, 2 octave drops and greater. If you can do this without moving your embouchure then you have it sorted out properly, if not then learn to use more air support and lessen the grip from the lips. Try the exercise in reverse, going upwards too.

I also note that your mpc is very small by Bari standards, I use around a 125 to 130 tip with a 3 1/2 reed. The biggest difference apart from increased air requirements is the fatness of sound in all registers and ease of altissimo control. Iwould suggerst looking into a different mpc and see what other option syou have out there. I can bury trumpet players in an acoustic situation on my tranny 12M with this set-up. It is also able to whisper and subtone the bottom end.

Basically what I am saying here is, speak to your teacher, learn more about air control versus embouchure control styles of playing, try the big drop exercises, try the subtone exercises, try different mpcs and see how it fares after a couple of weeks.

Best of luck sorting it all out.

[Gange]

Thanks Bootman,

I will take my horn to the dentist... repair shop I mean some time during summer. It was not playable at all when I bought it so he has done the major work with it so far and wanted me to get to know the horn before starting fine tuning. I will talk with him about the key heights.

I have been practising intervals up to octaves and have problems particular with fifths, but I will try larger intervals as well.

I have been thinking about seeing a teacher for the last six months but never really got the time/guts to do it. I haven't had a teacher for the last ten years now. I think I could need it. There are not many dedicated bari player around here though...

I also made some phone calls to the major shops here trying to find some other mpcs to test, and sadly there does not seem to exist one single bari berg for sale in whole Sweden! :shock: I was offered Meyers, Links and a HR Lawton. Ah, yes, Rosseau (jdx 8 I think) as well, but I have tried rosseau before and found them good, but a little too timid. I want that grumpy sound. I browsed through your homepage and listened to your sound samples and I liked the ones you have on the selmer horn the best. It had more... guts... _I_ think. :-)
I will try some other mpcs as soon as possible. I guess anything would work to rule out my current mpc being the black horse, right?

Are you, or someone else, familiar with the HR Lawtons?
Shall I aim somewhere in the 100-110 range do you think? For more background info, I kind of like pretty small opening on the other saxes.

[Bootman]

The Conn Tranny and Chu were much louder than the Selmer or Magna Baris. In a band situation, the Conn is the better choice. Drop me a line via email, I may have a mpc here that will help you out.

[triplebsaxman]

i found that the way to get perfect intonation is to play like David Sanborn. Put the Bari mouthpiece in your mouth like a Clarinet player would put the clarinet in their mouth. in a angle like this /. Also when doing this don't let the Saxophone touch your body. I find it works for me. I am 16, i have played the Bari for 4 years the alto for 8 and i have near perfect intonation. Oh yeah and try to put your mouth all the way up on the pholcrum point (not sure how to spell it). In other words put you mouth over the point where the reed meets the mouthpiece. The Baritone saxophone i find is to be one of the harder saxophones to get in tune. I hope this might help you out

[Gange]

Hi again,

The horn has been at the tech now and everything seems fine. Very interesting to play the horn when it's in tune. He worked on it almost a full day and it was absolutely amazing to see him work.
He attacked the octave pip, making it a little longer and with a bigger hole (I think), and he also changed the sizes of som of the tone holes.
Soundwise the horn really opened up as well.

So if someone is in need of a _very_ good tech, give Lohff & Pfeiffer in Copenhagen a call. Very nice people as wel! Check out: http://www.woodwindexpert.com/

The search goes on for a new mpc...

[HC]

On my Buescher True Tone bari, The E and F plays very sharp on a Berg. I got a different mouthpiece (Meyer) and the problem went away.