King Zypher question.

[CK]

Hi folks,
this is my first post, though I've been reading and learning a lot here for a while. I'm looking to buy a good vintage pro tenor, and I've found a 1948 King Zypher tenor. I haven't seen it yet, but I wanted to get some info before I go check it out as I don't have any experience with these.
Can you tell me:
1) Is 1948 a good vintage for the King Zypher?
2) From the photos that I've seen it appears to have a laquered brass body and silver or nickle colored rods, keys, and tone hole guards and covers. Does this sound right? For some reason I associate brass colored horns with silver colored rods and keys as beginner horns...this was normal for King's pro horns?
3) The asking price for the sax is $800. It looks pretty scratched up from the photos I saw, but it is supposed to be in good playable condition with only minor dings. Is this a good price?
4) Any things I should be looking for on this sax, any concerns that are particular to this model or year that I should be aware of?

I've heard good things about these. I'm hoping that this is a good one.
Thanks for reading; any info or advice you can share will help.

Thanks,
Cliff

[bruce bailey]

I played a pre-war Z for a while and even sold my Mark VI as the Z played as well. I am not up on how those models were, but that is a litttle on the high side if it needs any work. Still one of the more desired Tenors and the Baris are good too. I would need to see a phoot to make any other estimates.

[CK]

Thanks Bruce,
that's incouraging. Can you tell me if your Zypher had the silver colored rods on a brass colored body? I'm still a little put off by this as it seems odd on a pro horn. I also found out that the sax is not close enough for me to check out in person (as I had thought), which sucks as I don't really to want to risk this much money on an instrument sight-unseen. I've requested more photos to get a beter idea.
Thanks for your help.

[SAXISMYAXE]

CK,
40's vintage Zephyrs are FANTASIC horns in all respects. Well, built, great sound, projection, intonation, power etc. I've known more that a couple of Pro Tenor players who prefer the Zephyr model to the Super 20. I collect/play vintage CONNS and KINGS in particular, and will tell you that there is nothing quite like the sound put out by the vintage KINGS. They have a great presence, and powerfull tone. You won't find many(if any) current manufactured horns that have the sound this horn does, IMHO.
The Rods appear silver because they are solid nickel silvern, not brass. This is a good thing as it provides added strenght to the rods. Regarding the keywork, Silver and Nickel plated keys were a deluxe feature for horns made before, and just after the war. This was before the 1950's fad of putting nickel PLATED keywork on Student quality horns, this feature had been an elaborate special order finish on PRO horns of pre war vintage i.e. Dolnet, some Conn 30m's etc. Some Professional horns had nickel plated keys well into the 1950's too, such as the Conn M models and some Dolnets had Chrome trim. Zephyrs made around 1948 would still have been considered pro quality, even in the shadow of the new Super 20 models becoming popular around the same time. As a matter of fact, the early Super 20's were nothing more than a slightly more elaborate Zephyr Special. But by the 50's they were marketed as an intermediate horn, having been fully displaced by the Super 20 and Silver Sonic models.
Try to test play it just to be sure of it's condition and what might need to be repaired/replaced on the horn to make it A1. Otherwise, I HIGHLY recommend the King Zephyr model whole heartedly!
By the way, provided the horn isn't damaged and doesn't need a tremendous amount of work done to make it playable, $800.00 is a very reasonable price.

[shmuelyosef]

1) Is 1948 a good vintage for the King Zypher?


1948 is an awesome vintage, IMHO. I have a similar vintage Zephyr (282xxx) and a later super 20 (454xxx), and I prefer the Zephyr by a lot. These later Zephyrs with the more rounded spatulas are great values.

2) From the photos that I've seen it appears to have a laquered brass body and silver or nickle colored rods, keys, and tone hole guards and covers. Does this sound right? For some reason I associate brass colored horns with silver colored rods and keys as beginner horns...this was normal for King's pro horns?

All King's from about 200xxx through ~550xxx (somewhere around there) had nickle rods and brass cups...IMHO the best combination. Really strong unbendable rods and malleable cups to bend for pad alignment. These look spectacular when cleaned up well...see, e.g. http://sjrosner.home.mindspring.com/Zephyr_alto_292XXX/. Make no doubt...these are PRO horns, I have found them to be among the most reliable of any horns that I have owned and/or repaired.

3) The asking price for the sax is $800. It looks pretty scratched up from the photos I saw, but it is supposed to be in good playable condition with only minor dings. Is this a good price?

This is about an average price...really good examples of the 240XXX-300XXX vintage (the most desirable) have been going for $1200 on eBay, but less-than-perfect playable horns have gone as low as $600 and fixer-uppers as low as $400. Specials (e.g. silver-plate military horns, sterling necks...I have one see HERE (http://sjrosner.home.mindspring.com/Zephyr_281xxx/), or 'Zephyr Specials' can go for considerable more).

4) Any things I should be looking for on this sax, any concerns that are particular to this model or year that I should be aware of?

The value of the horns with the sheet metal key guards is less...the features that make these 'collectable' are:

- the kewl three hole strap hook
- the double neck brace that makes a really strong neck that still vibrates freely
- the clean, simple wire key guards, IMO make this one of the coolest-looking saxes anywhere
- modern, very fast, light key action with screw-adjustable G#/Bb bridge and C#/B bridge...rare on vintage horns
- double-sleeve neck (although I have never understood why this is better)

The downside of these horns:
- The LH spatula is very fast action, but requires fairly strong pinkie fingers...particularly the low C# has low leverage, but is direct acting so it never sticks
- They are heavier than other vintage horns, particularly the Conns
- The LH thumb pearl is rounded and uncomfortable to some people. It can easily be replaced. The RH thumbrest is not very comfortable...my Super 20 has a Selmer thumbrest for this reason...I often consider changing my Zephyr thumbrest, but for now it is all original...most techs would replace both with Selmer parts for <<$100.
- They are >50 years old...check particularly for how loose the key action is on the side C, Bb and the palm keys. The tubes for these tend to see a lot of abuse and were a little thin on these horns (although not as thin as the Conns, which often have been swedged so many times they are too thin to hold solid!).
- The pearl holders seem to wear abnormally fast on these, if the horn has been played a lot, the pearls may be a little uncomfortable...this would cost you a bit to fix.

That said, most of the 40s Zephyrs I have seen could be quickly and cheaply placed in pro-playable condition

[CK]

Thanks very much for all of the good specific info. That clears up the issuee of the nickle rods! It sounds like a great horn, I think I'd be reallly happy with one of these. Unfortunately this one is too far away to actually check out. I've asked for more photos. I hope it's a legit, good deal.

Cliff

[bruce bailey]

My Z tenor was all silver plated and my bari was lacquered with Nickel plated keys. Great horns.

[shmuelyosef]

Not a particularly valuable vintage, but still a Cleveland, this Zephyr might just be a great buy...excellent condition with choice case even. Many Super 20 players would pay a couple hundred for this case (I am thinking of bidding for the case myself)