lexicon Effects?

[Alan G]

Ok - so, I posted a question if anyone used Lexicon effects on the old forum - and got no reply :(

Also - I'm learning how this area works...so I gots'ta try post'n.

Sooooo - any one using Lexicon effects unit in a live situation? I'm thinking of getting one of the new MPX110's...or a used MPX100 or other such thing.

And... does anyone else find emoticons irritating? :shock:

[HornDog D]

Alan,

I haven't used the Lixcon but I'm in the process of evaluating a DigiTech Vocal 300 processor for use with a sax. So far it's sounding great. I'm not sure if the Lexicon is similar in the types of effects it has and what you're looking for, but I thought I'd let you know in case it was. The Digitech has Chorus, Reverb, Delay, and Pitch Shift types of effects (and a bunch of others you'd probably never use). The reverb and chorus type of effects sound good, and what I like about the pitch shift is you can set the amount of pitched effect you want, say just a little of 1 octave below to simulate a bari playing along with you.

At Guitar Center you can try something out for 30 days and return it if you don't like it. That's what I'm doing now. I've had it a few weeks and it sounds great at rehearsals through a PA. I've yet to actually play live or record with it though but I think it will sound just fine there too. I'll probably end up keeping it.

[ReedSplitterRev]

Haven't tried the Lexicon or Digitech as the quotes I've got are quite high. I was looking into the Yamaha ST5, but it was very limiting. The music store guys took me over to the guitar department and I ended up with a Zoom 606 Guitar modeler and effects unit. Pretty cool device! I use it to add a bari sax under my tenor and it fills out accurately. Also has a ton of cool stuff like cry baby, wah wah, chorus and a ton others. The built in pedal is great for turning the effects off when moving form the 'section' work to the solo sections. Pedal is cool too for the wah and cry sounds. Very Metalwood (Mike Murley) or Brandon Fields ( Dave Weckl Band) like. COOL!

[Grantibibitus]

Lexicon is the choice of a great many studio engineers. They consistently produce high quality units that are cleaner and more natural sounding than most any other reverb unit out there. That's why they cost so much. It'll do the job on the gig or otherwise. As far as ease of use, well, it's not going to compare with the convenience of a multi-effects stomp box but if you're making a recording at a gig, you'll be much happier with the results of the Lexicon. The other big plus is that you'll be able to sell it easily no matter how old it gets. Much like a Mercedes, it will always be valuable. Honestly speaking though, at a gig, reverb is reverb and no listener will know the difference.

[Media Lint]

Harmony Central User Reviews on MPX 100 (http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Data/Lexicon/MPX_100_Dual_Channel_Processor-01.html)

[ferrari]

I bought the MPX 100 last year, and so far so good. For live use only you might want to go with an equivalent Behringer - less expensive. For recording the reverb on the Lexicon is really really nice: hard to beat for the money. Guitar Center will meet or beat any price, even an internet quote. I spent $179.00

[Hinzaldi]

I ended up with a Zoom 606 Guitar modeler and effects unit. Pretty cool device! I use it to add a bari sax under my tenor and it fills out accurately. Also has a ton of cool stuff like cry baby, wah wah, chorus and a ton others. The built in pedal is great for turning the effects off when moving form the 'section' work to the solo sections. Pedal is cool too for the wah and cry sounds. Very Metalwood (Mike Murley) or Brandon Fields ( Dave Weckl Band) like. COOL!

Hello Reedsplitter,
Does the Zoom 606 work on the mike-signal, or do you need a pre-amp? And how does the wah work. Does it cause any feedback? I have a Korg Toneworks (Pandora), which has an auto-wah, but on sax and flute it's very disappointing, and very sensitive to feedback. I'm looking for a real wah. And does the Zoom have 'intelligent' pitch shift, so it stays in one key?
Thanks :?:

[ReedSplitterRev]

Hinzaldi,

The Zoom works off either a mic signal or through the effects loop of a mixer. I run my clip mic into a small Behringer mixer, loop the pedal through the 'effects' return and then run the main out to the main PA board. The wah is fairly simple and does not feedback as long as you arn't trying to make you sax sound like Metallica (which you can with this pedal). I had to spend a bit of time getting the settings right, but once that is doen, you can store the patch and recall through the foot switches. As for 'intelligent' pitch shift, I'm not sure how it is defined, but it does not jump keys...I guess the answer is yes. The music store where I purchased it was very accomodating, as far as if it wasn't what I was looking for, they would give a refund. Email me if I can help more! reedsplitterrev@hotmail.com

[saxboy]

The Lexicon Effects are all very good. If you don't have any effects, anything will be cool. The cheaper Lexicons have had a reputation of being noisie, but if you set them up right, they work fine. You want to drive them as hot as you can without peaking (red lights), and turn the effects up to 100%. Run them into a small mixer and bring the return up just a little, until you have the amount you want. This keeps the noise to effects ratio down for any unit.
My Lexicon is a MPX200? i think... and works great/sounds great.
Also had a mid priced TC Electronics M1 that had great reverb and effects. Have a Rocktron/RSP Technologies Intelliverb and Intellefex that smoke.
Used Digitech, Alesis, Yamaha, Roland ect...
They all work pretty good if set up right.
They all add 100% improvement for live playing since you can give a PA your desired effects and are necessary in studio recording to make the sax sound natural.
The guy that did the teaching write up on effects here at Sax On The Web did a great job so check his article out too.
I don't advise anyone trying to play straight thru an effect due to the tone change on so many. That's why I always use a mixer as others have stated above.
You can use effects to make your amplified sound more natural or to totally change it for cool and/or strange effects.
I always use effects live and have for 20 years now for all pop/commercial settings.
Hope this helps.
SAXBOY
www.gregvail.com

[ferrari]

saxboy; What effect do you use on the Lexicon for reverb? Not too heavy, not too light, just very warm and natural sounding. I know this is a fairly vague question, but I'm still trying to find the right effect for what I perceive is MY sound.

[saxboy]

I use a med/lrg plate reverb with a pre-delay set at about 50. I use it most the time, but do have other settings for more aggressive tunes or traditional songs which are settings with less reverb length or turning the mix of reverb down a bit.

The 200 has a input volume on the front and I do turn it up or down some to fit the type of song I’m playing. On a ballad, I would turn it up or change to a longer setting.

I have used more than 1 effect at a time but have been playing around with this thing to see what it can do, so it is the only effect I am now using.

The pre-delay adds the effect of a delay without actually using a delay. It works pretty cool so far.

SAXBOY

[garyinla]

saxboy, what kind of output cables are used by the Lexicon? Is it two XLR cable connections, ie mike cables?

You put in a mono mike, and the output is stereo?

Also do you use a compression unit too? What else is needed in the rack other than the LExicon?

Thanks.

[saxboy]

You can make these racks huge and very expensive and cool too. My tour rig in 95-98 was 2500.00 in just custom wiring and set up. 2 4 space racks all hardwired with ... who cares. Sounded amazing and was, but travel expense involved as a sideman had it home most the time and eventually pulled apart with a few tears. 10-12 Grand at purchase to get together.

Then there was the rig I used 1 time with Peter White before it was stolen. Wireless mics and wireless in ears; it was sounding great and I could hear myself everywhere, all the time, in stereo with great effects. Now gone too… 5 Grand pulled out of my trunk and gone.

So what is really necessary?

I have a little 3 space short rack this week. It has a 1 space, 6 channel mixer with 2 band EQ, effects and Aux sends and Pan on every channel. Very basic and about 300.00. I have the Lexicon MPX200 ? effect in the rack and that’s it.

Set up?

I have channel 1 on the mixer set for Phantom Power to use my clip on AT mic on. I have been just leaving that channel alone because the clip needs phantom and a very low gain since it is a very hot output.

I have channel 2 set for a standard mic input – vocal, bari sax mic, or other.

Channels 3-4 are open now but I did have a Alesis Quadraverb in the rack at first and used these channels for…

Channels 5-6 are effects returns for the lexicon. Mixers do have returns for effects but you only have control over volume if you use them. Channel controls allow adjustment of volume also, but also Pan (are you going stereo or mono, 1 or 2 cables into the PA) so you can turn a knob from stereo and mono. EQ lets you fix the sound of the reverb on the spot. The verb sounds to bright tonight, turn down the highs on the channel instead of trying to reprogram on the lexicon on the gig.

The only problem using channels for effects returns is possible feedback. If you have the FX send on the Channel turned up on the same channels you use for returns, that will cause feedback. That’s one of the reasons I like to put the returns on the far end of the mixer so I don’t screw up.

The lexicon uses ¼ inch cables in from the effects send on the mixer and ¼ inch effects out that go into 5-6 on the mixer. Some effects have mic ins and outs but smaller mixers don’t support it so it does not really help anything.

My mixer is a Ross. It does not have XLR outs so I did buy a pair of DI Boxes to send the PA an XLR signal. You can use little adaptor cables but I don’t really trust them for durability, sound or proper signal matching.

If this sounds too hard or confusing, a quick recap.

My rack has a little mixer and the Lexicon 200. I plug my sax into the mixer and mix effects by using a couple of channels on the mixer. This is the most basic, cost effective sax set up that gives you control over your sound and the effects before plugging into a PA System.

Feel free to post again with further questions raised by these comments.

SAXBOY

[Alan G]

Thanks Saxboy-thats helped me work through some ..er.. stuff.

Quick recap - I had posted that I tried the TC Electronics M300 - and finaly ended up with the Lexicon MPX110. Unfortunately - that post died in the great crash. And I'm not going to go through my review and travails again! (unless someone replies and begs)

However - I have been having some trouble in getting the right amount of gain from the effect unit - to get a decent amount of effect - it would clip. That, BTW is what sold me on the Lexicon - the clip noise was not offensive (the M300 had a horrible clip).

My rig is an old Crate 100watt Keyboard Amp head - that has effects send AND returns - which is how I have the MPX110 hooked up. So what I could do is take the output from the MPX110 - and dump it into an unused channel (its a 4 channel head). EUREKA! I can get massive output - with out clipping the #*&#($*&#!!! MPX110.

DUDE - Thanks!


(of course - I knew that - just forgot........ :wink: )

[saxboy]

Now, if you want to also be able to feed a PA with your effected sax, a DI will go in and out with 1/4 inch cables and give you an XLR out to send to the PA. You can add a little volume or just use your amp as a monitor and turn up the PA channel.

Glad you have it working now! Continued blessings in your quest...

SAXBOY

[garyinla]

Thanks for the info saxboy.

Here are some more questions:

- do you bring your own monitor to gigs where you are put through the PA and they have monitors with the house feed anyway? THis would be kind of anal, dont you think?

- what do you suggest and would would you use for your own monitor in such situation?
I am thinking of a JBL 15" EON powered speaker. I tried a Lexicon through that in a store and it sounded real good. The store advised it has much better sound than a Roland Keyboard amp and I agreed.

- if you were playing in small clubs where one 15" amplified speaker would be more than sufficient, would you skip the output to the PA and just use the amplified speaker as your source of sound? Have you played using just an amplified speaker, what do you think of that? (at a large venue the speaker cabinet could be miked into the PA also but I dont know the point of that rather than using a line out, it wouldnt seem to make much sense.)
That might **** off the sound guy on the house PA board.

- when you use a rack and you have a line out to the PA, do you go MONO to the PA or stereo? I was playing in a rock club last night and the house sound guy said he thinks stereo input from a rack from a sax player would be unnecessary. HE would prefer a mono input. He said he would only recommend stereo input from a PA from a keyboard that was using some sort of reverb (maybe like an organ sound.) As he explained to me he can adjust the position of my sound in the house stereo mix, using my mono input, by turning a knob. An advantage of going mono would be if you walk into a place and they have a mike set up for sax, and you want to use your own rack, you can just plug that XLR mike cable into your rack as a mono input to the PA, rather than ask them for a second cable. THe house PA board may be some distance from the stage so asking for a second cable may seem a nuisance to the sound guys.

[saxboy]

Really good questions.

You asked, “do you bring your own monitor to gigs where you are put through the PA and they have monitors with the house feed anyway?”

Richard Elliot does in huge concert environments. He has a 12 inch 2 way and a set of house fed monitors on either side. He obviously decided he wanted the control. I don’t have anyone moving my gear for me so I check out the situation first. If there are monitors on stage and I am sure to have my own mix, then it should be fine. If it is a big venue that has concerts all the time that is cool too. I will check and even call the sound company if possible to see what they think.

If it is looking safe, why bring a ton of extra gear? I don’t bring monitors if I have a mix of my own.

You say “house feed” – If that means the same mix as the main speakers (concert mix) I would bring a monitor to hear ME better.

On Monitors – I don’t need much other than me in a mix. When I was out with Peter White I used to ask for 60% me, 20% of the Boss, 10% keys, 10% vocals. Even on huge stages, the drums, bass ect are loud enough on stage or even too loud. The less you have to put in a monitor the longer you will have ears. If you can’t hear the subdivision from the drums, get a little kick and hi hat.

One thing to note: you don’t want to **** anyone off; other band members or the house guys. You need to keep the attitude very helpful and make others jobs easier. You want to make sure the gear you bring is working right and you know how to use it too. You just don’t want to **** everyone off because you brought all this stuff in that made the gig hard for them. Set up your rack, know how to use it and be ready to fix a problem or bypass the whole thing for the good of the whole.

You asked, “what do you suggest and would would you use for your own monitor in such situation?”

EONs are good and easy to use. I tend to like 12 inch rather than 15 inch speakers because the sax does not need a ton of low space; not even a Bari. A 12 Inch speaker should be more friendly in the Mid Frequencies where most of your sax tone and range is found. I think the EON 15’s might have more power which could help. It is a matter of your ear. You want a monitor to encourage, not discourage your playing. Either would be a lot better than a keyboard amp.

I have lots of gear around the house so I have options when I go out. I bought some great sounding monitors made in So. Cal. from A3. I have been using them with a power house QSC amp; mid-line and around 700 watts a side. I am very happy but this stuff was damn expensive and sounds like it. If I want to go light, I bring the amp and a set of small Ramsa speakers and put them on stands behind me.

You asked about small clubs with an EON.

I do have my own sound in most jazz clubs. I make my job hearing me. I give a feed to the club or band leader and let them do what they want with it. It might not be the issue of needing more volume but just needing to cover around the room. Your 1 speaker ‘could’ make for sax hot spots and not spots.

You asked about micing a speaker cab.

You really don’t want to do that unless you are trying to amplify the tone/sound of the cab. Guitarist do it because it is their sound. Bass players do it when the XLR out on their amp is not working and a mic is the next choice.

You asked about mono or stereo feed to the house PA.

I just ask the sound guy if it is a mono or stereo house mix first. It will also depends on how many channels are available. I give him the option. In a big room there will be a sweet spot and many will hear one or the other side so I trust him to know what is best and just give him the option. As far as cables, I carry a few extra just in case.

You asked some very good questions. I hope this helps.

SAXBOY

[garyinla]

Thanks, I am encountering these issues so that explains the questions.

Carrying an extra cable of your own may work often, but if it is a big venue and the sound board is far away or if the cables are covered or permanently installed in some way, then your extra cable won't work. How long are the extra cables you bring? (If you are playing some festival, you dont bring 200+ foot cables do you?)

I am used to playing in little places with no monitors or else maybe main monitors with house feed, so as long as I can hear myself at all I am happy. I am not used to the luxury of having monitors where I can hear myself loud or have my own feed. I am lucky if I have any power to ask the sound guy to change my mike level.

One reason I have been particular about what sax I play is that I want to hear myself playing well in these difficult situations. If the sax doesnt have a big sound and doesnt resonate well I cant hear myself well. I may have been wrong to think that the sax was the key to these rather than monitors. But I traded away a relacqoured King Super 20 alto for this reason that I felt played thin, and I play Martin and THE MARTIN and MarkVI altos now. I have been messing aroudn with reeds and mouthpieces for the same purpose too.

This is all just low level stuff I am doing but I am advancing a little so I need to know about this stuff.

Richard Elliot I think plays on LA Saxes so I think he would need all the help he can get with monitors.

[saxboy]

I only carry 30 foot extras. Sounds like any control you can get over monitoring your sax will be a huge improvement. Just work towards getting a working monitor situation for yourself with a clean feed to the house and you will be a lot happier.

You are on your way...

SAXBOY

[Tim Price]

Greg, way cool..I think you saved a bunch of us major headaches 8)

[sessionsax]

Saxboy, that last setup you mention is almost identical to the rig I use live.

Ross 6 Channel - 1 Channel phantom powered for my hardwired Pro 35
Alesis Quadraverb
AT UHF Wireless
2 AT Pro 35 Clipons -- on hardwired with XLR the other with mini XML for wireless transmitter
Power Conditioner
Rack Bag
Small yamaha powered floor monitor - 150 watts or so.

My set up is almost exactly as you described.

Works great for me.

[saxboy]

That's great!
If it was just me, many might blow it off.
It is really easy to plug a sax into some old guitar stuff you get from friends and you can get some pretty cool effects.
But a simple set-up like this, compatible for Vocals - Sax - just about anything - is going to have cool, weird effects available along with a fat, solid sax sound with self monitoring easily available.

EXPERIMENT...
Dedicated Guitar effects, certainly older processors and most stomp boxes tend to have very limited frequency range. The low end is less an issue than the highs. If the effect cuts off too many highs, the sax tone will be dull.
I used everything I could get my hands on when I was a young guy. The experimenting is great fun and I learned a lot about electronics on sax thru that process. I encourage all young players trying to stretch the sax into new ground to get into it and post your ideas here for us all to read.

MAINSTREAM...
This is another great little rack. Probably pretty easy to use and hear on stage too.
Thanks SessionSax

SAXBOY

[chappy]

If you crazy kids are looking for an easy to use, fairly cheap, multi-use effect, try using the Line6 DL4 Stompbox. (The green one)

Here is a link if you want to see what it does.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--LINDL4.

I have been using this for almost 2 years. It runs for $240 new but you can get them on ebay alot cheaper.

Some fun features I like are
-14 second loop delay
-tap tempo control
-versatile pre programmed effects

It is no TC Electronics but it more than does the job for me.

I am also playing with multiple other "guitar effects" that really help me create the soundscapes I like to use.

[sessionsax]

I just picked up an Alesis Quadraverb 2 in a trade -- and it sounds better than the original Quad and has much better presets and sound than the Lexicon Alex that I have as well.

[philly_sax]

saxboy, sessionsax, garyinla, and all others, – Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to work up a gig configuration based on all or some of the following equipment:

Tenor sax (used on most songs), bari sax, (used on some Motown stuff), Yamaha WX5, w/ VL70m tone generator, which is wind-synth friendly. Use for a variety of voices from trumpet to steel drum, with some Patchman patches. Need to hear this through my own monitor. (Also have Yamaha MU-50 tone generator).

Digitech Vocalist Performer for harmonies (Yeah I know it's limited)
w/FS300 footswitch
SM57 instrumental mic
SM58 vocal mic
Yamaha ST5 with hard wired clip on mic.

Samson Airliner wireless clip on woodwind mic.

Shure PS5 wireless in ear monitors

Galaxy Audio Hot Spot powered monitor

Behringer Eurorack MX802A mixer (4 mono channels, 2 stereo channels, 2 aux sends, 2 stereo returns, 3-band EQ (fixed), and low cut filter)

I do some backup vocals, and have not been using the SM57 with any effects because I find there is less risk of bleed into a clip-on mic. Would love to use gate to also keep out bleed, especially if using digital effects.

Ideally, I'd like to feed the dry signal into the Behringer submixer, have the effects looped in though effects return, and hear a mix off the main mix monitor and whatever is coming out of my mixer going to the main. But, with the ST5, the mic goes directly to the ST5, so that's an issue. I'm a little unclear on the effects return looping thing, and mindful of the admonition to not **** off the band or house, know how it works and be prepared to fix or bypass any problems.

If no one wants to take the time, I understand, as I am weary of thinking about the options myself.

[Jazzer]

I just picked up an Alesis Quadraverb 2 in a trade -- and it sounds better than the original Quad and has much better presets and sound than the Lexicon Alex that I have as well.

What presets do you find you like on your Alesis?