help!

[sure1234]

Basically heres my situation.... Ive been playing for about 6 years and cant count for myself ive played some very hard 4 star pieces and I have no problem, fast tongue good tone etc. but i have a major flaw one that has haunted me for the last year because Ive been in some honor bands and I stick out from the bunch -I can not count- If someone were to give me a piece and it had no sort of tune or rhythm to it chances are i Would not play it in time. I know how many beats to give each note and all that but Im not counting in my head like most experienced players do.... Is this what im doing wrong?... Cuz my way of playing has been going good until lately and I need to learn how to count in my head otherwise Ill never be able to play in time.. I guess ive been switching notes when the guy next to me does and this is not right playing with the flow is not good! anyways give me some recomendations I have whole summer to break this horrible problem. I have a private lesson teacher tooo and he cant even notice and I definitly dont want to tell him knowing him but I dont have lessons with him until another 5 months ... So HELP Me out guys PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

[Kareeser]

In every situation, the longer you put it off, the worse it's going to get.
The more you neglect your timing problem, the worse it's going to get. You'll eventually have to admit it to somebody. Better it be your band teacher/personal instructor today, rather than the leader of an orchestra, 5 years from now, :)

[sure1234]

I do realize the seriousness of situation but what can a band teacher tell me that you guys cant on this forum

[Minatar12]

For one thing, he can work with you for as long as it takes to help you, whereas all we can really do is give you some general advice, especially as we have no way of hearing you.

One thing you might want to try is just getting music and trying to sing it to yourself, instead of playing it. Sing it along with a metronome if that helps you keep a steady tempo. You can begin to automatically understand rhythms and note values if you sing them to yourself (as its a lot more natural to sing than play an instrument) and once you got that down, you can begin applying what you have just learned to the sax.

[bass]

Here's a suggestion from a novice who also is struggling with time.

One thing that's helped me become attuned to the beat is to "conduct" recordings of backing CDs. Use standard conductor's timekeeping. The movement of the arm (as silly as it looks) helps me become aware of the proper placement in time of not only the downbeat but all the beats in between. Combine conducting with singing the music--you have a powerful tool to assimilate the meter into your brain. I think.

Bass

[Gandalfe]

Counting is one of the hardest aspects of being a musician and one that most people ignore to their peril. Try this excersise, have a conducter start a song where everyone just says 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, ... and have the conductor signal for everyone to count for yourself. Don't use your foot and two or three bars later signal for everyone to start where they are. Guess what? Those without an internal pulse will be all over the place but the true musicians will be spot on. They have internal pulse.

To develop a feeling for the beat of a song, use a metronome, sing instead of playing to time sometimes, clap instead of playing sometimes, and try to find and keep the beat to the radio as much as you can stand to. If you do this for a couple of years you will be so far ahead of the masses it will be amazing. And if you decide it's too hard, you will never be a professional musician.

This kinda reminds me of that old joke about two musicians in a filled elevator. When it came to the first floor there was ping and someone said, "What was that?" Both musicians said in unison, "An E." :lol:

[sure1234]

Wow thanks for the help. Right now Im practicing clapping out the beats to easy tunes then i play it on just my mouth and neck of my alto. Then I play it, while im counting in my head the whole time. Im realizing this is gonna take awhile to master. Probally in a few weeks if I work at the rate i'm going ill be able to read some challenging music. By the way by singing the song outloud this might be a ridiculous question but do you just kinda humm the notes. I noticed a few people sing there parts on there piece for there first time and they sing it like it just sounds. Anway how many people have my problem, people think im this great player in band. Yet, kids who suck are doing something I totally missed. Man I should write a book for people with my condition.

[SaxPlayer1004]

you can humm your part if you want, for all of us who cant sing worth a damn humming or whistling helps. but if you can learn to sing pitches (something i can do i just cant sing words properly) then your intonation will improve 100-fold. but i find if im listening to a televised concert i.e. lastnight's "Pop's Goes the Fourth" i tried to keep time with mr lockhart. granted i also conduct and dont have a problem with keeping time, but if you can keep time with the conductor, understand subdividing, instead of 1 2 3 4 1&2&3&4& 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a etc, and use a metronome youll get it in no time. i had the common problem of rushing EVERYTHING when i was in 4th-about 6th grade, then i just practiced and practiced witha metronome, and bam. just stick with it, im sure everyone who has commented on here has had a problem with keeping time at one point, or is still having problems and is trying to correct them. metronomes are the best things since sliced bread for a musician, if you dont own one then i think all of us wills ay you have to buy one. puts you 20 bucks or so down for a digital one but its portable and it works. so a 20 dollar investment will probably pay itself off on your first gig.

[Warder60]

I would try running scales with a metronome varying the pattern. You would have to come up with ideas, like start with something (ascending and then descending) like:
quarter eighth eight quarter, etc and go to more stuff like
tri-pl-et quarter quarter, etc (if that makes sense)

[saxchado]

The Rhythm has always come naturally to me, I've never struggled with it, but I've had many students who have, so I've been forced to know how to help people with rhythm. One of the best things for my students has been to make sure that there is an outward expression of pulse, TAP YOUR FOOT!!! Many of us can now "count in our heads" as you said, but most, if not all, of us started by tapping our toes. Listen to the radio, tap the beat, turn down the volume for a few seconds, turn it back up, and see if you are still on target, make it progressively longer intervals with the volume down.

Start with faster pulses ie: at least 100-120 bpm. Studies have shown that it is easier to keep a faster pulse. If you want to know who really has internal pulse, have a group of people clap the first of every 4 beats, at a tempo of about 40!!!

Singing is a good start because you don't have to worry about your fingers. Who cares if you sing the right notes, that's not what you're working on, get those rhythms!

Also, use a metronome when practicing something like your scales, where you don't have to think about notes, and can concentrate purely on pulse, when you are spot-on with that click, vary the rhythms as mentioned in a previous response. Just don't give up, and don't get ahead of yourself.

It's way less embarassing to do something outwardly to help you keep pulse than it is to get lost and mess up the lick. One of the keys to sight reading that any pro will tell you is to get the rhythm right. People won't always notice if you miss a note, but if you miss a rhythm, you stick out like a sore thumb.

Good luck!!

[sure1234]

i can get the pulse...i tap my foot and i can count this problem is kinda wierd for me cuz i stopped counting for awhile and i make an educated guess cuz i know how long the notes last but i should be counting in my head anyways and sometimes i do guess so its basically training myself to count in my head

[sure1234]

I just re read my post and I dont think it makes any sense.... What I was trying to say is I can get the pulse from a song and I can tap my foot and kep to the pulse but Im not converting the pulse im getting into music...Because Im not counting in my head. Instead of counting im just guessing with an educated guess of how long a quarter note eighth note and sixteenth note last, even though I have a tendency to be right. I should be counting independantly and not have to guess or switch when my neighbor plays. Im working on solving the issue right now. Im using a metronome while going through music and clapping outloud and counting 1+2+3+4+ out loud repeatdly for the music. I have yet to sight read 16th note music while doing this exercise but I realize im gonna need to spend more time. ANyways Ive gotten some great help off this forum and from aim people.

[SaxPlayer1004]

good job man. havent seen you online to check in but it seems like u were doing the right things. metronomes are the musicians bible. without them we would die. not really, but oh well it sounds cool. just remember to keep playing everyonce in a hwile.

[sure1234]

AT first I was really determined now im noticing that im slacking off and not doing what I should be doing. Seems like I want to talk more about my issue then strive to fix it lol.. Summer can be to distracting :twisted: i need to be doing this :shock: with my eyes but instead im acting like 8) in an attempt to be :) while my sax skills are :( .

[sure1234]

i wish i could edit that post i sound really stupid

[SaxPlayer1004]

you can edit that post. lol click the edit button. and write something completely random

[welsh888]

I used to have a very similar problem 8)

The problem here is your playing the music - your not 'feeling' the music. Sorry to be touchy, feely - but its true.

You need to start thinking more about the mathematics behing music and the logic of the rythmns.

I found reading poetry helped - because it teaches you that the mechanics of music and beats, work equally well in the spoken word.

Find a song / tune you really like and try to think about the mechanics behing it.

hope this helps a bit - i sort of know what I want to tell you - but am finding it difficult to put into proper words. :?:

[sure1234]

I agree man, I wasnt feeling the rhythm like I should. I was just sitting there focused on other things. I tried out YAS 62 II today, holy crap what a difference in sound. Never have I wanted anything so bad in my life. I loved it. Well my counting problem is getting better. I cant get myself to count for harder music. But just need more time and practice

[SaxPlayer1004]

i prefer the older 62's over the new ones, just my preference and the 875's are pretty much over priced for the same horn. neways, good job with the yamaha and counting. it does take time to get an inner rythm, doesnt happen over night.

[sure1234]

Heres an update on me. My counting is slightly impriving im counting at rest but still am not feeling it. Still dont know what I should do... I need to keep working I guess.. Heres link for new sax I had still having problems if you guys have any recomendations dont be afraid to tell me thanks!

http://www.saxontheweb.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=21587&highlight=

[Joe Linux]

I would suggest playing very slowly using a metronome. Particularly with a metronome that can indicate the counts such as the Korg M-30 which is rather inexpensive. Also claping the rhythm with Play along CD's might help. Sometimes you can be playing in time, but still drop an entire beat. Thatls why you need a metronome that keeps track of the counts.