How to practise Natural overtone

[terrant]

How to practise natural overtone?

I have been practising natural overtone for five months. So far, for pressing the lowest Bb key, I could reach to the forth overtone - high Bb, however, no matter how hard I try, I could not reach to the fifth overtone high D.

Please advise how can I reach the fifth and so on.

Background information: Tenor, mpc otto link 6* and Rico Jazz select No.2 I am using.

Your help is much appreciated

[colibri]

A #2 reed seems a bit on the soft side. Try a harder reed and make sure you're not biting. Roll less lip on top of your teeth and raise your tongue. Good luck.

[Cameron Wigmore]

That is an easy blowing setup, and with a 6* link you might want to try changing to a 2 1/2 reed. That higher partial is easier to reach when one matches it to the actual note. Play that high D and with out stopping or articulating, smothly and quickly change your fingering to the low Bb.
Good Luck!

[Bill Mecca]

Hearing the target tone "in your head" helps, and what CTC posted will help you in that respect.

[terrant]

Thank you for all the advices. Yesterday, I tried to use No.3 Rico Jazz reed and pressing high D key for expecting the sound of the note; and then smoothly changed the fingering from high D to low Bb, however, the overtone - High D hasn't appeared yet.

However, I will keep trying. Once it works, I will report here.

Is the overtone -high D a critical note ? I mean whether it will be easier to blow for the upper notes than the high D after overcoming the high D.

Thanks

[Bear]

Hi terrant! Try the following trick. Finger the low Bb and go up through the overtones to the high Bb. Then, for the D keep the low Bb fingering but add the high D palm key just slightly - and I mean just barely crack it open - and the high D might pop out. This can be repeated for the next overtone but with the alt. or palm F key. If you get a warbling sound instead then I would guess that there is a leak somewhere on the horn.

If the tone is started then you can probably let go of the palm key and hold the overtone with just the low Bb fingering.

The D overtone is important. Yes it will make the rest easier.

[Kevin]

See the thread below on "altissimo, overtone, and tongue position"...

follow the suggestions near the bottom and you should be able to pop those overtones out in a relatively short amount of time, with much less effort.

[Jeff D]

The difficulty with seeking advice from others on overtones is that everyone;s mouth is different.

Some things I have suggested to students with varying degrees of success:
Notice where the air is coming from in your mouth--is it the same for all the reachable overtones?

Notice where the air is directed in your mouth at various points (back, middle, front)--again, is it the same for each harmonic?

If there is a difference, is there a pattern in the air direction?

If there is no difference, do you think there should be? (hint: if it were that easy everyone would be playing 4 octaves)

How could you best describe the air? fast-slow, warm-cool, big-small, red-blue, intense-passive, soild-ethereal

Hope these help
JD

[terrant]

Jeff

Finally I found the fifth overtone (D) of Bb! Thank you for your advices. I have taken about 9 months to find it out. I can reach some overtones higher than sixth or seventh now. Since I have found them recently, I could not control them very well and keep them consistently. However, the most happy thing is that I can find them! Thanks.

I have tried the method of opening slightly for the palm D with low Bb fingering (suggested by one of gentleman in the topic). It works on me also at the beginning. After reached the fifth overtone (D) by this method easily, I though I should not totally rely on this method and I want to using low Bb finger only to reach the overtone, so thereafter, I keep using low Bb fingering only. Finally I can reach it. It is a very amazing experience.

I don't know how to describe that I can reach it by writing. I can only say once it comes, it will never disappear. It is very interesting experience.

Jeff, your advices are essential. Thanks.

[Tears June]

After working on Overtone for 2 moths, each time 5 to 10 minutes. Now, I'm able to use Low Bb fingering to get a high Bb (3rd octave) , or Low B fingering to get a High B pitch (3rd octave). However, I've very trouble for the Low C fingering to get a high C pitch.

2 days ago, I've found if I release my right hand finger just a little bit (3rd 4th finger), the high C pitch is much easier to produce. Am I cheating? Or is it a right way to work on this pitch before I go very straight ?



:cry:

[JS]

Give this a try - start each overtone with the breath and NOT the tongue. Take your time and allow each note to resonate - if you need to, put the metronome on as slow as possible and hold it for 8 counts. If you're having a hard time getting the D to resonate, it may be because you're not "hearing" the D in your head BEFORE you play it - try to sing the D first, and then try to play the overtone - you'd be surprised what a difference that makes!

[Kevin]

I am not sure what the point of venting the harmonics are...as you go up the horn with the fundamental fingerings (Bb to B to C) it gets harder and harder, but the most important aspect is hearing the pitch first. Getting the actual C to speak is less important than focusing your ears and refining the subtleties of your embouchure. Even if it never speaks, the effort taken to work on it will benefit you.

When you say third octave C, do you mean the C above the staff (normal range), or the altissimo C, which is C4? If you are referring to C3, then your embouchure will develop without the need to vent anything. If you mean C4, that is very high and only good reeds will work for you.

[terrant]

Tear June

I totally understand what you mean because I had the same problem of yours (Please reference to the latest message of mine).

Provided that you will not totally rely on the "tricky" way to reach overtone in future, why we couldn't use this method at the beginning if this is an effective method?

In this few weeks, after overcome the 4th overtone, I could reach 7th overtone. I am very happy to keep practising overtone because it is like a challenge of myself and it can make my voice better.

Keep practising, Tear! Good luck. If you could reach higher and higher, welcome to let me know in here.

By the way, it said that reaching higher overtone is dependent on the quality of reed which is one of the important factors. I am wondering it is true or not. Someone told me to change the reed No.2 (soft) to No3 if I wanted to overcome the 4th. However, I found it is not a case for me because I could reach the 4th even higher overtone using reed No.2.

Any comments?

[Jeff D]

Reed strength is moot once you have the air control in line. For those still trying to get beyond the 2nd octave a firmer reed does help since the tendency is to increase the volume of air without concentrating on the shape, direction, impetus of the air.

To break into the higher partials, you really need to change your approach to playing. Many players try to muscle out the higher harmonics. That can be counterproductive. Try to think of the air/tone as a lump of soft play-dough that you are trying to draw from a ball into a snake (by pulling not rolling). If you force it, it will tear and you need to start over. A player needs to gently pull the vibrations up to the next partial while continuously monitoring every aspect of the air column for tears.

On the issue of C being more difficult:
There is a reason Mr. Rascher used a horn with no tone holes to demonstrate harmonics. The low Bb acoustically is what the instrument is designed around. It is the pitch with the least amount of air turbulence in the bore of the instrument. As you open toneholes the amount of turbulence increases. The big problem with any saxophone design is the bow area around the low c and c# tone holes. At this point (due to the 2 90 degree turns) the air does not know which direction is the optimal way to vibrate. In poorly designed or poorly maintained instruments this results in a gurgle on the low d and c.

The higher you go in the harmonic series on a saxophone the narrower the "slot" for each note gets. Also, the higher the fundamental is the more out of tune the partials are. Many players with good ears have difficulty because the pitch they want to come out is not responding. Let them be out of tune until you establish solid control. After you know where they naturally want to be on your horn you can play around with trying to get them in tune. This is not necessary to get the benefits of harmonic control, but it sure gives your face a workout. (Overtone scales in the back of the top tones book with a tuner is a killer!)

JD

[Tears June]

terrant

Thanks for your encouragement. Until last night, I can reach to C# pitch. Which means by using low C# fingering to make a 4th octave C# picth.

Unfortunatley, only Bb & B is stable. For C & C#, I need to release some of my fingers very slightly to get the right pitch. Have you using this tricky way when you start ?

You said you can reach to 7th overtone. Is that mean you can use a low Eb fingering to get a 3rd octave Eb pitch? No need to release any of your finger ?


:cry:

[saxboy]

This overtone thing is why Saxes have great response on not for me. It is also why the newer horns kill me. My Yamaha's have a great series. I find the better a Saxes overtones, the better the tone, because the tone contains that basic series of overtones too.
The real test is off the low C, C#, D.
It gets much harder to play all the partials from higher fundamental notes. A lame sax will have little to offer in findable overtones at all. The better the Saxes overtones, the better the sax for my money, the more options you will have from more fundamental starting notes and extended series partials.
There is a lot more to it than just that, but you-all have covered everything else already...

SAXBOY

[terrant]

Tears, to respond your first question - Yes, I have used the tricky way when I was trying to reach an overtone which I have not reached before. However, after a few practising and reached the overtone, I would not use it because I could reach it directly. For your second question, I am sorry to mislead you. I means I could use low Bb fingering reaching the 7th overtone of low Bb - Ab. Now I am trying to make overtones stable. Reaching higher overtone and making overtones stable are both important so I am prasticing those. Actually in a few days, I have reached 9th overtone (C) of low Bb fingering. I think it may be high enough for me and now I will prastise to keep the overtones stable. Good luck and have fun in your practise.

[saxboy]

This overtone thing is why Saxes have great response or not for me.
Posting too late again
SAXBOY