The break down your playing

[Dauri]

If you could rank the different attributes of saxophone playing which would be first? How important is a good tone, compared to finger speed, tounging, techniques(altisimo, multiphonics, etc), creativity,?

For me, scince I play a faster pace kind of music tone isn't the biggest factor? At the bar/clubs, private parties I play at, people don't really listen close enough to the music so finger and tounge speed becomes more important than tone. What do you musicians think about the different attributes of saxophone playing?

[Bootman]

Actually I think you will find that it is a combination of all these issues. You need to have good technique, sound and stage presence in order to perform effectively. The only way to learn this stuff is by practise and lots of on the gig experience. There really is no shortcut.

Tone is critical, it is the first thing that an audience of musical ignorami notice.

[Dave Dolson]

Dauri: Tone, tone, then more tone, followed by simplicity, melodic sense and chordal integrity; at least that's how I see it. I've been in those highly amplified environments where everyone is tastelessly blowing into microphones, trying to out-technique everyone else on stage. It is cacophony at its worst. They all seemed to have technical skill way beyond my abilities, yet when I played, sans microphone, the whole place listened, the trumpet player said he'd never heard a soprano played with such strength and presence (there were two other soprano players there, too), and the audience, unused to such a style, cheered. That has happened to me many times. There are many players who can play a ton of notes in one measure, yet say nothing musically. Try not to emulate that school of thought. Good luck. DAVE

[JL]

I second what's just been said. TONE is crucial. As Bootman states, it's the first thing the audience hears and if they don't like the tone quality, they'll tune out everything else you do. Beyond that, rhythmic accuracy (something I've struggled with over the years) is extremely important, since it is also what the audience tends to hear, whether they realize it or not. Then of course, you need good note selection, etc. It's all gotta be there.

[Harrell]

I agree with Dauri. At a bar gig last Saturday night, the bar was full of loud, 1/2 drunk frat boys and no one was listening to the music. Bootman's comment about an 'audience full of musical ignorami' presumes that these ignoramuses are actually listening, which they're not. In most bar gigs, you're just background 'music'. You might get someone's attention if you play something from the top 40 of their time period, or some other well known tune (believe it or not, Yakety Sax is a huge crowd pleaser), but in general, I agree with Dauri on this one.

[Anonymous]

Good tone will get you through times of bad ideas better than good ideas will get you through times of bad tone.

No amount of bad sounding notes can equal a single good one!

To think otherwise is self-deception in a highly developed and very silly form.

[Harrell]

Fudd, I don't believe those were the choices (bad tone vs good tone) that the original poster had in mind. I interpreted his point to be "best tone" versus "averge" or "normal" if there is any such thing. But he wasn't proposing to play "bad sounding notes".

[Anonymous]

What I meant to express is that---Without good tone, nothing else matters very much!

[mostly alto guy]

What's important is that you like what's coming out. And that other people do. People who have money and will trade some of it for a chance to hear you play. And they'll come again and trade more money for another chance. If this is happening, you've found what's important. That's not to say that if you just play alone in your bedroom that you haven't found it, of course.

[JL]

Harrell may have a point regarding the bar full of 1/2 drunk frat boys who aren't listening. But if no one is listening, then I guess it doesn't matter much how you sound, except to yourself and your band mates, of course. In my experience playing on quite a few bar gigs, I've found that SOMEONE is usually listening, even if it's only 2 or 3 patrons who still have their wits about them. Dancers at least listen to the beat and they'll hear you on the sax if you're not drowned out by the drums & guitars.

Also, I've picked up gigs for private parties, etc. from bar patrons who were listening enough to decide they liked the band. So I guess my point is, it's always worth striving for that good sound. You never know for sure who's listening.

[Dave Dolson]

JL: Right on. DAVE

[Razzy]

I'll have to echoe that tone is the most important thing. Fortunately for us musicians, unlike models, beauty of music can be attained and worked at and improved! Everything else is important too, but tone is the foundation. If you have bad tone, or even mediocre tone, no one will want to listen to you, no matter how fast you can play that Coltrane or Parker lick!! Or whatever else it may be :roll:

[Keith Ridenhour]

I would put rhymic integrety right behind tone. I heard a sax player in an RnB band at a bar years ago. His command of time and phrasing stood out like a sore thumb. I pestered him for a lesson (50 bucks for an hour) and it turned out that he had been the music director for a casion in europe for a few years. He actually liked my RnB tone better than his own but he (during the lesson) told me time and time again to simplify my phrasing and cut out alot of crap. Stick to the minor pentatonic and stay in key center 90% of the time and really pay attention to the melody/rhytim. Got about the same advice from another good player I took some lessons from. His comment on his playing was that he was a better musician than a sax player. (He's on tour currenty with the Eagles) He would play a short phrase over a v7 chord and it was soooo much more musical than the fast , flashy crap I was attemping. Anyway, I paid all the money so you can take the advice from these teachers. Time and phrasing. Tone is important but I've heard a good local player sound from great to mediocre depending on the soundman and the stage. You can have a great tone in the practice room and all that makes it out the mains sometimes is your phrasing. Anyway, my 2 cents. K

[Bootman]

If you play well then you can make an audience of non listeners listen to you, it is your sound and what you play that gains their interest. Something to consider when playing a gig and you feel nobody is listening. You can always make them listen, it is part of the stage craft of live performance. A goiod sound is critical to impressing a crowd of supposed non listeners in a Bar gig.

[steve]

I have to agree that tone is first....when I started playing again with a blues band,after many years away, we recorded our gigs...while I thought I sounded pretty good live, the CD's told the truth...I was not satisfied with how I sounded That's when I decided to concentrate on tone improvement...long tones. I agree that a less than fine tone will get you by for some types of music ( we all have heard the sax solo in "Wooley Bully"), but I suspect your expectatons are higher or you wouldn't have asked the question.

[Harrell]

If you play well then you can make an audience of non listeners listen to you

I really don't believe that. It's idealistic doublebabble. Last Saturday night the gig was in a sports bar. Big screen TV, loud drunk frat boys hooting at the game on TV - one or two partons would applaud the 'band' on occasion. Jesus himself couldn't have made the audience listen.

[max]

Why on earth do they even have live music then?

I agree that you can get non-listeners to listen to you, but obviously it's going to be next to impossible in completely ridiculous situations like you're describing.

[shortwhite]

Always play as if someone is listening. You never know..............
I was playing one of those Sunday brunches, you know, look pretty, play softly, don't musically offend anyone.........live muzak. Had a late gig the nite before. 3 hours sleep. Been doing the gig for several months. No one listening. A waiter comes up with a request written on a napkin. "Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Orleans?". Nice tune. We play it and take a break. Waiter returns saying that the gentleman that requested the tune would like to buy us a drink. We go to thank him. Go over to thank him. It's Dr. John! He's in town doing a session. He's very complimentary and asks for a card. Says he's already got a sax player for the session but if it turns out he needs another he'll call!

Never got a call but Dr. John aked for my card!

No one's listening huh?

[Troy]

Dauri: Tone, tone, then more tone, followed by simplicity, melodic sense and chordal integrity...There are many players who can play a ton of notes in one measure, yet say nothing musically. Try not to emulate that school of thought. Good luck. DAVE

Can I get an AMEN!!

[Dr G]

Sure, I'll give ya a hearty "AMEN!" "Go for the tone" has been my mantra for many years.

On the other hand, if one is playing in a ska band where the sax is more a percussion instrument, perhaps rhythm rules.

Nah!

Go for the tone. :borg:

[ferrari]

Harrell; I love your posts, but come on man, what do you expect from a bar in South Dakota!

[Dauri]

The reason why I ask this question is that during my upcoming years playing, I was obsessed with how my tone sounded. But now I feel that the focus or the ability to match my sound in with other instruments and to compliment the musical plane that the group creates.

It's one thing if your playing lead saxophone in a band that plays slow ballads. Tone becomes the most important thing. I play with an merengue tipico where I was tought double and triple tounging before even learning a minor scale believe it or not( it was during my first six months of playing alto).

Secondly: I believe that no one who has been practicing for over a year or two has a "bad tone." I do agree that their is such a thing a a great tone, but not really a bad tone. Of course thier are people who CHOSE a tastless
sound for themselves.

Now 99% of in the jazz world those who spend the time to achieve a good tone are better musicians than those who just focus one speed. But I know musicians in D.R. that have that "good but not great sound" and musical genius's". Their incredable use of speed and tounging just complements their core musical genius. And I'm sure that there are those out their who aquired a good tone but have no sense of musical originality or charisma.

I'm still very interested on what people have said and will say on this issue. Thanks for you views.

[Andrew]

This is how I would rate them (I won't go into Creativity)...

Tone over Technique

I would MUCH rather hear someone sound sweet and NICE, as opposed to someone who could play tons and tons and tons of crazy licks but sound absolutely disgusting. I mean, of course, they have to both meet in order to have a suitable musician, but come on...I've heard cats out there that could just blow the socks off of so many people, but their tone was just so obviously ugly and immature. If they can spend the time learning the licks, then they can definitely spend some time playing some longtones. That's all it takes! LONGTONES...jeez...ugly sound = a player I won't listen to.

[JL]

Dauri, I think I see what you are getting at (man I wish I could triple tongue!). But I think what most of us are talking about when we speak of tone is the overall sound quality. Ability to blend with other instruments when it's called for, to play with a clear or raunchy tone depending on the situation, to growl or bend notes, to play with a striking tone quality that just sounds good.....that's what I mean by "tone." And it really is what the listener hears immediately.

But, as you point out, tone is not enough by itself. I'd say rhythmic accuracy and good phrasing are equally important. What Keith Ridenhour said above is pure gold....I feel like framing that one!

[Anonymous]

Easily 75% of ALL (tenor) sax players I have ever heard in a long, and musically oriented, life have bad tone. Beauty is , in this case, in the EAR of the beholder.

If you accept less and less, you will appreciate more and more, until Plas Johnson, tenor tone incarnate, resides on the same pedestal as Johnny Paris of ...and the Hurricanes fame.

This may be perfectly acceptable to you and, of course, your perogative, but, Jumpin' Gee Whillikers, do you listen to these people?

[Dippledorp]

i really dont like mics because I feel they alter my sound. but then if i wanna play unmiked then i usually have to play louder, which can depending on how loudly i have to play, it can sacrifice my sound also. What do you do in this situation?

[Gandalfe]

Pick your gigs as carefully as possible so that you can enjoy the experience too. It's not all always about the money, you can say no sometimes. Start practicing now. Say no to the every one out of three offers. It can be very liberating.

[hornstar]

TONE & TIMING

First thing I notice is tone, regardless of the instrument. It's why so many of us will pay a premium for the magic horn, mouthpiece, etc. I'm not always sure how much to credit the player's technique versus their instrument & setup, but awesome tone makes heads turn. Some years ago I was part of an outdoor big band gig in downtown Buffalo when this young cat on trumpet hit a long note to begin his solo. His tone was so awesome and cool that every musician on the bandstand turned their heads to see who it was, and everyone walking around on the streets stopped what they were doing and turned to listen. I don't remember what ideas he played in that solo, but 10 years later I can still hear his tone in my head.

I agree with Keith, phrasing/timing/rhythmic sense is a close second, if not immediately equal. And for me, it's a greater measure of the player's ability and confidence.

[Razzy]

Tone definitely has a lasting effect. I've been working on my tone on all the horns for some time, using long tones, harmonics, pitch bending (like say, finger a B2 and play A2 perfectly in tune), and all that good stuff. It's paid dividends. Also, I find that the more I practice in general, keeping in mind correct and consistend voicing in the oral cavity, correct articulation, breathing, and support, the more my tone improves and stays that way, and then gets better!

This doesn't mean I haven't also been working on rhythm, technique, and phrasing too! It's all a big equation... just imagine, though, that you're playing for the person you love, and you're trying to woo her and you have one note to play. If you have poor tone, sge might scrunch up her face in disgust! But, if you have good tone, perhaps begin the note very slowly, then add a touch of slow vibrato, increasing the speed of vibrato with dynamic, then tapering off to nothing over about 7 seconds... man, she'll feel the emotion coming from you, and maybe, just maybe, develop a hint of attraction, eh?? :wink: