F alto/mezzo soprano ?'s

[GregK101]

I saw a buescher horn today, i believe it to be an F alto. I didnt get a chance to compare it directly and ive never seen one in person. It did say "true tone" and "low pitch" on it by the serial number. It looked nearly identical to my conn c melody, except of course for its size. The key arrangements and design work was nearly identical. The stencil looked like the one on my conn even, except it said buescher. Finally the case was almost the same as the one for my conn, size being the only significant difference again. So that leads me to my questions:
1. Is this indeed a stencil that conn did for buescher or vice versa?
2. Is it probably an F alto or an Eb?
3. Is it probably worth buying and for what price?
EDIT: forgot to add, as it would apply to my last question, the sax will definetely need a full repad, recork, new cup protectors, resonators, and possibly springs. Overall the body and keys are all in excellent shape however, i did not find any dents or major scratches.

My horn identifying skills are weak, so any help would be very useful. Thanks!

Greg

[bruce bailey]

Look to see if it is labled "High Pitch", "H", or "HP". IF so it is a high pitch A=457 or worse and is virtually unusable. What makes you think it is an F? The ones Conn made looked quite different and they had the bell keys on the left.

[GregK101]

It definetely said low pitch on it. It seemed to be a bit smaller than a normal alto, like the neck seemed to be a little shorter. Is there a sure way to tell that it is an F alto w/o playing it? It said patented 1914 by the serial. I forgot the serial so i couldnt check the date it was made on my own.

Yea i think the bell keys were on the right on this one. There was just so much that was similar. I guess now that i think about it, instrument makers copied each other a lot back then. It was all silver body, polished brass inside bells and chrome keys.

Greg

[bruce bailey]

An F is quite a lot smaller. Measure the body without the neck and post.

[paulwl]

I saw a buescher horn today, i believe it to be an F alto.
[...]
My horn identifying skills are weak

The first step in learning anything is always admitting what you don't know, Greg. :wink:

I'm sure this is an alto in Eb. Buescher never made one in F, because Conn laid a great big egg doing it. Most of the F horns wound up guinea pigs in repair school. :(

[GregK101]

doh, id like to find an F alto, but this would be a really nice Eb to have as well. The only thing i dont like about it is it didnt have rolled toneholes.

Greg

[paulwl]

No way around that with a Buescher - you'd have to get a Conn (or Keilwerth). Anyway, the big advantage of RTH is longer pad life. Even shot pads can seal pretty well on them.

[bruce bailey]

There's a Conn Mezzo on ebay now for $4,995 BiN.

[GregK101]

There's a Conn Mezzo on ebay now for $4,995 BiN.

Yea i just checked that out. It is an amazing instrument for sure, if only i had a spare 5 grand hehe....at least for now i can drool at it :)

Greg

[bruce bailey]

But once you play one, you know why Conn quit making them!!!

[paulwl]

:o Now what the F is that supposed to mean?!!

[GregK101]

Yea really is there something wrong with the conn mezzos?

Greg

[bruce bailey]

They appear to be the ONLY f mezzos made. The ones I have played, one of which is a top line collector's horn, seem to be like a C soprano as far as pitch. If you are willing to make a lot of adjusting, they can be used, but the tone (and pitch) are not too centered. I look at them as a novelty more than a horn to be played. I used one for playing some English horn parts but ended up transposing on an Alto.

[paulwl]

You're missing something, Bruce...I can't think of another saxophone that has quite the same tone quality. To my ears it's a unique cross between alto and soprano: more liquid-y and lyrical than soprano, yet rounder and more "ringy" than alto. Anything but not centered. Could be that your ear expected an alto or soprano (or English horn?) sound and was let down not to get it.

The tuning issues I can't explain, except to say I don't notice them. It might not be much use to the "working player" whose goal is to fill chairs in ensembles, but it has a individuality and expressiveness (still largely unexplored).

[Paul Cohen]

Of the many F mezzos I have played, including the three that I own, all have had excellent intonation, assuming proper regulation. But only if played on an F -mezzo mouthpiece. An oversized soprano mouthpiece, which can fit, will skewer the pitch all over the horn.
Also note that there is a difference between the Conn F-Mezzo, and a 19th century F alto (one of which I also own). The Conn F-Mezzo is leaner in bore, and higher in tone quality. An F alto from the 19th century will sound more like an alto, and can use alto mouthpieces.

Paul Cohen

[bruce bailey]

Possibly the mouthpiece was to blame on the one I used. When I see the owner next, I will try to examine the one I was using. I see that Babbit has one now.

[saxtek]

I was able to do some extensive modification on a Claude Lakey alto mouthpiece to make it play reasonably in tune on my Conn-O-Sax. It also works, of course, on the F Mezzo. The best F Mezzo mouthpiece, by far, is still the original Conn F mouthpiece. The Babbitt is also very good but lacks the depth and charm of the old Conn mouthpiece.

I tried the modified Lakey only to cover a loud big band in live performance. The band, which has recently evolved into the new Jaco Pastorius big band, was very good but highly electrified and very loud. The Lakey did the trick, but the Conn-O-Sax began to sound more like an alto.

For those who are interested, the backbore of the Lakey has a sleeve installed to fit the smaller diameter neck, and the extremely high Lakey baffle needs to be filed into a "bullet" shape in the throat, similar to a Berg Larsen. Otherwise, the baffle almost obscures the opening into the neck of the F Mezzo. Intonation is not as good as a real F Mezzo mouthpiece, but it is flexible and it works, with practice, and it's a screamer.

It just isn't as much fun as the stock setup.

[GregK101]

I just want an F mezzo becuase i like having things that arent common, partly. I also love the fact i can just pick up guitar music and play it w/o transcribing or anything. My brain is to slow to transcribe on the fly lol, and im too lazy to write it out... So C and F horns make more sense for me. Of course i could just learn the actual notes on a Bb or Eb instead of the names of the fingerings, but again im lazy hehe. Anyhow i do like old instruments, theres a certain quality to them that is lacked by any modern instrument. Old instruments are neat because they have character, dents and scratches and everything that happens during regular use. I often wonder if anyone famous, or even good at any level has used my conn straight neck before me. To me the fact that its something no longer made makes it even more fascinating.

So basically, the bottom line is I like the C and F sax's becuase their cool, whether their considered "pro" or not. It really doesnt matter to most regular poeple listening to the music. Most people that would be hearing me play would have no idea of the difference in me playing a Mark IV or a 100 dollar horn i got at a garage sale, complete with dents. Anyway thats just my two cents :)

Greg

[paulwl]

The best F Mezzo mouthpiece, by far, is still the original Conn F mouthpiece.

I actually bought a second mezzo just to have one with a stock mpc! I had no trouble unloading my first one. Well...not just for the mpc. My first one was a relacquer and this one is original silver with factory added custom keywork, so that influenced me as well, I suppose.

Mine also came with a really, really strange non-stock mpc...white plastic, sort of grainy finish like the Rico Royals, with that same wedge baffle and stepped table. At first glance it appeared to be a soprano piece, but it's waaay longer than any other I own. Stranger still...it tunes like a charm on the mezzo and gives it a funky, snappy tone. What have I got here?

[stuka]

I wonder what it would take to convnice Conn or another company to take another stab at producing FMez's and Cmels. I personaly think the time is right. One of the big reasons the FMez didn't go anywhere is because of the stock market crash of 1929 -- the first year they were produced. People who couldn't afford to eat couldn't afford to buy FMez's..... the scale fingerings in the common keys (C, G, D, A, E, F) are sooooooooo much more intuitive on F and C instruments than the Eb and Bb's. I think that there would be a whole lot more sax players out there if there weren't such an awkward transposition factor.

Matt

[carguy1]

I don't know much about F saxes, but I have to disagree with one comment. I don't hink transposition could be any easier then on a Bb instrument. just my opinion. Ok, I'm done.

[cmelodysax]

I've had to explain many a time, the situation to parents with several children
learning different reed/wind instruments, why it is that the children have problems practising together at home.

With Bb clarinets, Eb alto's and concert piano/flute frequently in the loop, it's not surprising confusion reigns. I know some tutors and music books are available with C/Bb/Eb parts, but it's not the norm. They can't even work out the notes of a simple tune together without the added burden of, "well, if it's a C for me, it's a D for you and an A for him....." Grrr...

[ukebert]

The advantage with f saxes that i see (apart from their unique tonal charactaristics), is that if you use G whistle (clarinet lower register) fingering, you play in c, e.g. the notes that you finger will come out the same as if you played them on the piano.

So '6 fingers down' would play G, and so on.

Anyone want to give me an F horn for further experiments?

:)

ukebert

[Pete]

Some extremly illustrious names have posted in this thread.

I should do an F sax FAQ at some point, but the primary "reasoning" behind an F saxophone was to use it in an orchestral setting. Not primarily because the horn's got a sweet tone, but because it could play F instrument parts: that's generally French horn.

I've played for many an orchestra and they wanted me to play "saxohorn" parts because they were either short of French horn players or their French horn players just weren't all that good.

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Smart Music Tricks:

ukebert, if you use low register (whut, that's "throat" and "chalemeau", I think. Been awhile since I've used clarinet terminology) clarinet fingerings on an Eb saxophone, you have instant transposition from Bb to Eb. As an example, fingering 123 would be a C on a clarinet and a G on a sax, both of which are concert Bb -- that's the correct transposition.

Additionally, if you get a bass clef part and throw 3 sharps in the key signature, erase the bass clef and put a treble clef in there, you can play the part on an Eb instrument.

Yes, there are some small things you occasionally have to change.

========

It would be useful to have a sax that had a keyed range from low concert C (like your better bass and contrabass clarinets) to altissimo concert C. That would be a bit unweildy on a sax, tho. The low A on an Eb instrumnet, concert C, is actually a good idea.

[KenK]

Low A on an Eb alto would allow it to cover viola parts, the lowest note being an open C string.

- Ken

[Steve P]

Well, that is how the Low A Mark VI was born! Marcel Mule loved to play a certain viola concerto, but couldnt play the open C, so he asked selmer to make him an alto with a low A... and from there, its history!!

Steve P