Future of the Saxophone

[Woodwindswins]

How do you feel about the future of the saxophone as we move forward further into the 21st century? Do you think that technology could replace them with smaller creations? :shock: Will the world of the computer be a factor for it,say an example of a computer chip insert making your tenor sound like a flute,your bari sound like a clarinet,Etc....? Do you think the players yet to be born will be making our jaws drop? Will world music be even more of a factor than it is now? Or would you bet that the sax and its unique world will pretty much remain its good ol' loveable self for generations to come? Any thoughts??

[Kareeser]

Computer generated sounds would be impossible. There is only one standard for music on the net, the MIDI. We all know how terrible the MIDI sounds. Saxophones are tinny, Horns are too hollow, etc.

If we wanted to take an actual french horn (for example) and have that sound played on a sax, then we'd have to get a recording of it. With this, we get lots of arguments, because one person might like something else changed, blah blah blah.

I firmly believe that the acoustical part of the sax will stay for many years to come.

[Mike W]

Interesting thread. Some questions:
1) Will some parents have their children genetically modified to be musically talented beyound ordinary humans--like Bird to the tenth power?
2) Will electronic music systems that make MIDI look like a cave man's tool be developed?
3) Will atrifical intelligence develop and make all of the music?

Stay tuned Sci Fi fans, perhaps some of us are young enough to find out.

[prodigal]

Midi is already out dated, and has been for quite some time. It's just so universal, that it's impractical to switch over to something newer......

[HC]

One of the instruments that has undergone the most technology changes is the piano/keyboard. Think about player pianos, very expensive clavinovas in which you can literally make a whole band arrangement on it. Also look at very expensive keyboards (don't know much about them though.) I think this is argueably the instrument that technology had the most effect on, speaking from a consumer standpoint. Judging from what your saying, an old acoustic grand piano is worthless now, but its definetly around to stay.

I know this is MIDI and it probably sucks, but judging by what your saying, the Yamaha WX5 Wind MIDI Controller in theory should be able to make saxophones obsolete. But like any well-made instruments, it is here to stay. The number of people playing it would vary though.

[Kareeser]

... 3) Will atrifical intelligence develop and make all of the music? ...

I read something about Sibelius that was quite suprising.

Apparently, they are working on a computer algorithm that will take 8 bars of music, analyze it, and then output 8 more bars of music similar to the original eight bars.

Is it the beginning of computers writing music using math with a small infusion of actual creativity? You decide, :)

[Eulipion2]

This might sound a little odd, but two things I'd like to see happen to the sax are:
1.) Saxophones become more widely recognized as a classical instrument, with more orchestral music written with sax parts (it was, after all, originally intended as an orchestral instrument by Mr. Sax!)

2.) Saxophone becomes less popular/other instruments become more popular. There are a lot of saxophonists out there, and it seems like the other wind instruments typical of jazz are less common these days (trumpet, trombone, etc.) I'd like to see these horns get a little more prominence in the jazz and popular genres. Not that I'm anti-saxophone or anything, but I like a little balance. The saxophone has been THE instrument in jazz for some time now, and I'd like to see even a small shift toward other instruments.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I believe that one of the big advances not too far away will be a sax far less subject to damage (metal that is much more reluctant to dent or bend), yet far lighter (metal that is much stronger for its weight - twice as good as titanium alloys), a lot cheaper to make (metal parts can be cast with extreme accuracy, almost as easily as plastic), having a pleasant, non-corroding surface without surface coating or plating, and highly scratch-resistant (harder than tool steel).

This would come about by the use (for keys and perhaps body too) of a new metal alloy that is amorphous, trademarked "Liquidmetal". No, don't be silly... It is not a liquid in the lay sense, only in the same sense technical sense that glass is.

The Liquidmetal web site: http://www.liquidmetal.com/

It has been discussed in another thread, but unfortunately the thread was corrupted by a lot of silly 'interruption' from a guy who thought he knew everything but didn't.

Other thread: http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=7360&highlight=liquidmetal

[stevesklar]

I'm curious if other ppl think that with all the advancement, computerized tube molding, etc. if alot of saxes (like Taiwan horns) have become a "sterile" sound? Using bronze/red brass has certainly helped the sound. But they sound sterile to me ... can't think of a more descriptive word than that.

I personally would like to see and try a sax made of a titanium alloy. Of course, the price may be a little up there but i'm curious how it would sound ???

As for a computer chip, I play keyboard and I love the ability of changing the tone to specific items. But those tones are a 8, 16, 32, etc channel representation of those sounds and are not 100% exact (I'm not technically proficient at how it works so don't jump on any or all inaccuracies). Yamaha has come along way since the early days and it sounds fabulous. But I'm not sure how you can replace piano wires, such as 8foot or even 4 foot long with it's resonance, tone, etc with a little speaker. You can make the sound kinda match but you loose the resonance and depth of that tone. And with the sax and other overtones it's becomes more complicated. IMHO

But then, the military does have those electronic bugles now http://www.findusat309.com/articles/electronic_bugle.html I just horribly imagine an orchestra with electronic plugs holding a concert and not really playing ....

[Kareeser]

You were right... lots of ignorance in that thread.

I didn't understand most of the scientific concepts, in both the topic and in the liquidmetal website. What actual advantages would there be in a liquidmetal sax (whether it be keys or body)?

Stability?

[sopsax]

Hey, I'm completely outa my depth here, but have heard that carbon nanotubes are reasonable candidates for a material that is stronger than steel yet much lighter, and can be molded or shaped. Resonant too? Dunno.

As I understand it (courtesy of WIRED magazine), the stuff is made of pure carbon, with the atoms arranged into unique cylindrical molecular structures. Current sample batches contain molecules of two different sizes; supposedly, if you could create or select out uniformly sized carbon nanotubes, you'd have a material that's stronger yet.

Now will somebody who understands molecular physics please do a better job of explaining this? Thanks.

[Gordon (NZ)]

What actual advantages would there be in a liquidmetal sax (whether it be keys or body)?



I thought I already listed them. Stronger, lighter. cheaper, & lasting appearance. POSSIBLY acoustic benefits, but I am forever the sciptic. But for mouthpieces - Hmmm! Who knows. It could even be the ultimate reed material.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Hey, I'm completely outa my depth here, but have heard that carbon nanotubes are reasonable candidates for a material that is stronger than steel yet much lighter, and can be molded or shaped. Resonant too? Dunno.

As I understand it (courtesy of WIRED magazine), the stuff is made of pure carbon, with the atoms arranged into unique cylindrical molecular structures. Current sample batches contain molecules of two different sizes; supposedly, if you could create or select out uniformly sized carbon nanotubes, you'd have a material that's stronger yet.

Now will somebody who understands molecular physics please do a better job of explaining this? Thanks.

Somebody is already making a pure carbon mouthpiece probably based on nanotubes or Buckeyballs. He didn't deny it when I asked.

http://www.gis.net/~schwartz/moving/move.htm

[Martin]

The sax of the future will probably come with a disclaimer engraved on the bell which excuses the manufacturer if the buyer fails to sound like the then geriatric and decrepid Bootman.

Written guarantees will come with each new horn outlining the maximum altissimo achieved in pre delivery testing and a list of testimonials from drunken punters at seedy sax gigs.

A further disclaimer will apply if non- standard mouthpieces are used and altissimo claims are compromised.
You have the right to remain silent.

Creative endorsements by sax manufacturers in the future will see horns with Golden Arches and funny little ticks on them.

" Sax Playing....just do it."

[larry]

What about Aerogel (http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/aerogel.html)?

Imagine a clear sax with no weight? I wonder what it's resonant characteristics are? I wonder if I can get a gov't grant to find out?

[BrassaxMan5]

I for one say the sax is definetly not dying.
But, as technology changes so often, so does culture, so I imagine will the sax world.
I had this crazy idea that you could make a saxophone out of wood, like a pine saxophone

[Kareeser]

What about Aerogel (http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/aerogel.html)?

Imagine a clear sax with no weight? I wonder what it's resonant characteristics are? I wonder if I can get a gov't grant to find out?

I see a saxophone collapse into mist in your hands before you even get to play... :lol:

[Mike W]

Finally we are back to air saxophone?

[sax_appeal]

I think the future of saxophone will be some what reflective of the future music. While new types of music are introduced and some forms evolve so will music for saxophone. I expect that some of the music we today call standards will become like classical- ie. only a few players will play them and the new sax music of today will become standards.

As for the actual instrument? Makers will find ways of making proper intonation and altissimo easier to achieve while at the same time increasing the agility and smoothness of the mechanism. We might even expect to see computer chips in the saxes to identify them, like a digital serial number.

The future of reeds perplexes me though. I think that synthetic will become more popular, but climate changes could have either a positive or negative effect on cane reeds.

[tubbycub]

Liquidmetal....reminds me of T1000 in Terminator 2.

Imagine a sax that can morph into any of its SATB members anytime you like, we wouldn't need to pay for more than one horn!

[paulwl]

This might sound a little odd, but two things I'd like to see happen to the sax are:
1.) Saxophones become more widely recognized as a classical instrument, with more orchestral music written with sax parts (it was, after all, originally intended as an orchestral instrument by Mr. Sax!)

2.) Saxophone becomes less popular/other instruments become more popular. There are a lot of saxophonists out there, and it seems like the other wind instruments typical of jazz are less common these days (trumpet, trombone, etc.) I'd like to see these horns get a little more prominence in the jazz and popular genres. Not that I'm anti-saxophone or anything, but I like a little balance. The saxophone has been THE instrument in jazz for some time now, and I'd like to see even a small shift toward other instruments.
For saxophones to really get accepted as classical instruments, I think listeners and programmers are going to have to embrace modern day composers far more. Not just in orchestral music, but in chamber music as well. Too many people's tastes simply stop with the 19th century.

For other instruments to get more of a profile in jazz, listeners/programmers again are going to have to step out of the familiar groove. Winds, especially, have too few accepted contexts as solo instruments.

[paulwl]

Liquidmetal....reminds me of T1000 in Terminator 2.

Imagine a sax that can morph into any of its SATB members anytime you like, we wouldn't need to pay for more than one horn!

An idea I wish would come true is Fax-A-Sax. A special 3D scanner reads the contours of your preferred model of horn. Any vintage sax can be copied, or a basic model with or without custom features can be programmed into the scanner by CNC technology. The scanner sends signals to a fax machine that deposits layers of metal one by one to literally form the instrument (in parts or unibody) at your local dealer. Pads, cork, springs etc. are installed on the receiving end and presto, there's your sax.

[Dentarthurdent]

Human beings are remarkably traditional in outlook. I suspect that there will continue to be small incremental improvements in things like intonation but nothing too radical. Look at the violin for example - hundreds of years old but substantailly the same instrument. No one is making carbon fibre violins as far as I know :wink:

[Gordon (NZ)]

I've heard that some carbon fibre bows are well respected by those not too steeped in tradition.

[sax_appeal]

Now we're comparing saxophones to violins?

Saxophones are quite a new instrument compared to the violin, and have evolved much faster. Violins have improved slowly over hundreds and hundreds of years, but in quite a short time saxophones have improved drastically.

Do you think we'll ever get to the stage when you can get 3 good reeds out of a box? And will there be a reed that will last forever?

[sopsax]

Well, you can get three good reeds out of a box today -- if you buy two boxes, find the three good reeds, put them back into one of the boxes and take them out again.

A perfect, indestructible reed will never be offered for sale -- because you'd never need to buy another one. Same with razor blades.

[tubbycub]

A perfect, indestructible reed will never be offered for sale -- because you'd never need to buy another one. Same with razor blades.


Is it possible to make metallic reeds out of razor blade materials? Could this be the ultimate indestructible reed? Just a thought.

[vick]

It could be made (I remember a post about titanium reeds sometime back), but the point is no company will want to make it as it's not sound business, aka there will be no repeat customers and they will go under. Look at cars, modern vehicles are actually engineered to break almost permanently after about 150,000 miles, that way you have to come back and buy another one.

[tubbycub]

This is sick...those mercenary businessmen :evil:

I believe that not everyone will be able to keep them in good working condition forever, unless they are so careful that they never break anything. Since these metallic reeds need to be made thinly to function like normal reeds, accidents like bumps will definitely destroy them and render them useless. Careless people like me will definitely purchase more than one. There is still room for business out there.