bootman's reed drilling process

[kc0199]

i visited the site for bootman's reed drilling process and it says that the site is currently under construction. Bootman, could you post the process here if you don't mind...i'd greatly appreciate it

[Bootman]

Check out the pics on the reed experiment page, the first reed is a drilled reed.

Basically you use a flat bottomed Router bit of 1/4" sizing, drill the reed in the top of the ramp area, not all the way through, leaving a thickness of around 1 to 2mm and then play it. Try it for yourself witha before and after test on a couple of reeds. Let us know what you find.

[kc0199]

where exactly can i find the 'reed experiment' page....it says your page is under construction

[Bootman]

www.bootmanmusic.com there is a link to it there.

[nelsonjohnson]

I did a little research and set up my microlathe with a 1/4" router bit. I set the depth to 1/2 the depth of the reed at the cusp of the rounded area on the reed and made 5 copies on 2-1/2 Rico Royals. The reeds were out of the box. The lower C on down was much easier to play. But I needed to dress the reeds with Vandoren setup to make the reeds less hard.

Then I just dressed the reeds with Vandoren and no drilling. I flattened and polished the bottom of the reed and followed the same pattern of operations on each reed. The pattern was: Use the wand to take about twenty strokes off the back of the vamp to free up the low notes. Take quite a few strokes off the front edge to enhance the high octave. Take quite a few strokes off the rails to make attack better. Basically, the pattern is to create a suitably soft reed with an UNTOUCHED CENTER about 1/3 the way from the tip, for about 3/8" long and oval. Looking through the reed at a light source I see an opaque oval area surrounded by rather light areas from the tip, getting darker around the sides, and less light at the rear of the vamp.

After using this formula I found that the reeds with the 1/4" dents from the router bit were very raunchy at the low end and full of harmonics that were not so easy to control at the high end. The overall range was easy to play, but uninteresting. By "uninteresting" I mean it was hard to get any "soul" out of the reed. I can see how the technique would be great for bar honking as the sound is loud and abrasive with lots of harmonic surprises. So, that is what I will use it for.

However, I felt that the drilled reeds were less "musical." I found it much easier to get resonant, expressive tone out of the instrument with the Vandoren process. I think the BIG secret behind getting poetic and expressive reeds is to think of the reed as containing an ISLAND of untouched area around 3/8" oval at about 1/3 the distance from the tip to the back end of the vamp. I think that what happens has to do with resonances that occur around that "dead" area. It's like a bell, where the top of the bell is less resonant, and provides an anchor for the resonant sides. The "dead" area enables a kind of fulcrum around which the lower end of the instrument's range and higher end can resonate.

In fact, I can literally reproduce the effect by using the same pattern of strokes of the wand without testing the reed. I can see how well I have shaped it by looking through it at a light source.

My setup is a 1924 Buescher True Tone with a Link 7 mpc. The instrument was completely reconditioned with leveled tone holes, trued cups, centered pads, plastic resonators and dents removed. The original lacquer was retained. In my humble opinion the reed is about half of the solution, with a good setup being about 1/4 and the last 1/4 being good intonation. Of course a saxophone is NEVER well intonated, being more like a violin, so embouchure and chops are extremely significant.

The result of my test: The instrument is easy to play with heart and soul and hard to put down. Although I see what drilling the reed can do, I prefer that ineffable subtlety of tone that allows me to play Cole Porter, Gershwin and Norlins Jazz. To say nothing of romantic ballads from the thirties. Still, I will use those drilled reeds when I want to turn up the volume and wail!

Thanks, Bootman, for introducing me to the drilling process, and Vandoren for providing a robust conditioning system!

[toughtenor]

I did this with a couple of reeds and it seems to work, I got some stuffy reeds to play easier and more lively.
Basically drilling is the same thing as (re) cutting a standard reed out of the box. You take some of the material away and make it sound different then before. I used to cut away material at the exact same(drill) spot with a knife. when you drill the spot where you take material wawy from the reed is more centered which means a little diffentrence in effect probably.
I'd prefer reeds where all this is not necessary. cutting away some of the bark can have the same effect too. I 'll try to figure out what works best with what kind of reed with the next box

[Sigmund451]

I drill reeds regularly. I have been for years. I picked up a really cheap drill press, a router bit, and made a jig. It takes just a few seconds. I find it does make the reed a little brighter but it also takes away the stuffiness. Sometimes I need to do additional reed work but between drilling an a little sanding/shaving I nearly never loose a reed.

Thanks to Boot for bringing this practice back to life!

[rleitch]

If you don't have a drill press, but would like to try this out, you can get a reasonable facsimile of Bootman's drilled reed by taking a small flat-head screw driver and spinning it against the reed with your fingers.

Very cool.

Rory

[Jeff C]

I did a little research and set up my microlathe with a 1/4" router bit. I set the depth to 1/2 the depth of the reed at the cusp of the rounded area on the reed and made 5 copies on 2-1/2 Rico Royals. The reeds were out of the box. The lower C on down was much easier to play. But I needed to dress the reeds with Vandoren setup to make the reeds less hard.

Then I just dressed the reeds with Vandoren and no drilling. I flattened and polished the bottom of the reed and followed the same pattern of operations on each reed. The pattern was: Use the wand to take about twenty strokes off the back of the vamp to free up the low notes. Take quite a few strokes off the front edge to enhance the high octave. Take quite a few strokes off the rails to make attack better. Basically, the pattern is to create a suitably soft reed with an UNTOUCHED CENTER about 1/3 the way from the tip, for about 3/8" long and oval. Looking through the reed at a light source I see an opaque oval area surrounded by rather light areas from the tip, getting darker around the sides, and less light at the rear of the vamp.

After using this formula I found that the reeds with the 1/4" dents from the router bit were very raunchy at the low end and full of harmonics that were not so easy to control at the high end. The overall range was easy to play, but uninteresting. By "uninteresting" I mean it was hard to get any "soul" out of the reed. I can see how the technique would be great for bar honking as the sound is loud and abrasive with lots of harmonic surprises. So, that is what I will use it for.

However, I felt that the drilled reeds were less "musical." I found it much easier to get resonant, expressive tone out of the instrument with the Vandoren process. I think the BIG secret behind getting poetic and expressive reeds is to think of the reed as containing an ISLAND of untouched area around 3/8" oval at about 1/3 the distance from the tip to the back end of the vamp. I think that what happens has to do with resonances that occur around that "dead" area. It's like a bell, where the top of the bell is less resonant, and provides an anchor for the resonant sides. The "dead" area enables a kind of fulcrum around which the lower end of the instrument's range and higher end can resonate.

In fact, I can literally reproduce the effect by using the same pattern of strokes of the wand without testing the reed. I can see how well I have shaped it by looking through it at a light source.

My setup is a 1924 Buescher True Tone with a Link 7 mpc. The instrument was completely reconditioned with leveled tone holes, trued cups, centered pads, plastic resonators and dents removed. The original lacquer was retained. In my humble opinion the reed is about half of the solution, with a good setup being about 1/4 and the last 1/4 being good intonation. Of course a saxophone is NEVER well intonated, being more like a violin, so embouchure and chops are extremely significant.

The result of my test: The instrument is easy to play with heart and soul and hard to put down. Although I see what drilling the reed can do, I prefer that ineffable subtlety of tone that allows me to play Cole Porter, Gershwin and Norlins Jazz. To say nothing of romantic ballads from the thirties. Still, I will use those drilled reeds when I want to turn up the volume and wail!

Thanks, Bootman, for introducing me to the drilling process, and Vandoren for providing a robust conditioning system!

I admire the time and effort you have put into this process, but for myself, it just seems ridiculous to have to go thru all that to get a good reed. Would you sell me one of your "perfected" reeds?

[Sigmund451]

You would be surprised how fast and easy the process is. I picked up my press at harbor freight for 27 bucks, a cheap router bit, and used some scrap wood to make a little jig. Yea, it took some time but I like to tinker. Once done it takes me longer to walk to the garage than to drill a few reeds (literally). To me its no trouble. Its a lot of trouble to go through a box to find one that plays well.

[nelsonjohnson]

toughtenor: Great video!

Jeff C: I'd love to sell you one of my reeds, but seriously, I'm sure you can do as well or better with a pen knife. Bottom line - one man's meat is another's poison.

rleitch: Drill presses are cheap and surprisingly precise. Actually, if you just took a router bit an put it in a vice pointing up you could drill down without all the hardware.

To drill or not to drill. That is the question. My microlathe cost $400 a few years back and I do a lot of work on it. You can be very precise with it, but granted, unless you are into micro-machining, the expense is not justified.

Before I bought the Vandoren glass abrasives I used a small pen knife. I think the drilling process is great, and amazing. It really opened up the low end like never before. But I think that came at a price for me anyway. I went back to non-drilled reeds customized by Vandoren's process, which anyone can do with fine grit sandpaper and Dutch Rush, or a pen knife. Bottom line is I can rock with drilled reeds, but the subtle romantic stuff is better with those polished Vandoren prepped reeds.

It's a shame that it's so hard to find reeds that come from the factory ready to play. With lasers and Computer Aided Manufacturing (CAM) one would think it would be easy to produce reeds with perfect dimensions. After all, they can make medical devices and car parts to 10,000th of an inch tolerances, but nobody makes a reed designed to produce known results?

The big thing I discovered was that the reed performs like a bell, with a hard core surrounded by resonant areas. The drilled area is like making the area at the back of the vamp thinner. Maybe the edges of the hole add harmonics? Sanding down the rails (the edges of the reed) does have a big effect too. And thinning the tip of the reed does improve top end response.

Anyway, thanks for getting back to me! Maybe I'll invent a process for machining reeds to precise tolerances so a product line with real reproducible properties can be marketed. Hey, ain't it great to play sax? I have been doing it for over 20 years now and I'm just beginning to learn.:treble::space2::space3::line6::line1:

[Sigmund451]

I use a 27 dollar drill press. Works fine.

[nelsonjohnson]

Agree. I have a $27 drill press too, and it works fine. But I also happen to have that little lathe. Lots of fun! :)

[magical pig]

Just play the friggin' reed for christ's sake...

Victor.

[Sigmund451]

Play? What about reed prep, mouthpiece cleaning, curve measurments, material decisions, neck angles, bores, resonator colors....?

Are you sure we are supposed to play these things?

:D

[Baphomet]

Interesting. I'm always looking for a good excuse to break out the dremel....

[magical pig]

Play? What about reed prep, mouthpiece cleaning, curve measurments, material decisions, neck angles, bores, resonator colors....?

Are you sure we are supposed to play these things?

:D
Yeah, you're right. We should put all our perfect reeds for display in a cold lit sealed glass bell where the environment is sterile and has a constant humidity and temperature level... And keep tweaking the other ones until they're perfect and they can go in there too. ;)

Victor.

[Dog Pants]

Just play the friggin' reed for christ's sake...

Victor.

There's a big difference between 5 seconds to drill the reed and however long it tkes to fiddle around with NelsonJohnson's approach.


The reed drilling process is very quick and very easy. It's not a necessary thing, true, but it is effective and it works for Bootman who is a busy working pro. Gigging, studio sessions, teaching, etc, every day of the week. If there wasn't some benefit, he wouldn't bother with it.

I figure that Bootman probably "just plays the freakin' thing" more than you and I put together.

That said, once the reed is drilled and balanced, you can take all that other fussing around and raffle it. Just play the freakin' thing.

[bandmommy]

Hey magical pig,
Quit being such a little stinker. If these guys like to drill their reed it's none of our business.

If I could get more playable reeds with the responce and color I want by drilling, I'd do it.
What's there to lose except for a few minutes out of your day, and a bit more time playing. So far I've been happy just doing a bit of sanding to get a good player.

[magical pig]

I'm not judging here. I should've used more smileys...
I guess there are two sides regarding reeds and reed care/prep. Those who mess with them and those who don't. I used to sand and adjust my reeds, organize them by quality and response, rotate them etc. Now, all I do is just leave them in a glass of 4/5 water 1/5 alcohol (or whatever kills germs) and it basically works the same. I have no time to waste on reeds.
And... like all things saxophone-related there are the ones involved in a voodoo relationship with their equipment and those who just take it as it is : brass and cane. Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong as what is right or wrong is often a personal matter. But I'm right!:twisted:

Victor.

[dave2sax]

I tried the drilling thing and had marginal results also, but then again sanding, scraping, polishing etc. is also not very effective IMO either.

Sure, by removing material you can soften it up and make it vibrate differently. But no amount of hacking up the reed is going to alter the internal composition of the fibers - there's nothing you can do about that, and that's what makes great reeds great.

I've never found any hacked reed to play as well as one that's great right out of the box. A bad reed that's hacked is still a bad reed, it just sucks a little bit less than it did. Better than it started maybe, but it can never achieve greatness - at least that has been my experience. Now that I'm playing Alexander Superials, I'm happy I don't have to deal with these issues as often anymore.

[cjmdsax]

I've had some years of experience with this myself on tenor sax. I liked the results when I first tried it and for a while I have been drilling them right out of the box before playing.

Lately though I didn't drill and started breaking in some reeds. I realized that there was something in the sound I liked that was missing in the drilled reeds. More of a fullness. Some might call this stuffiness, and I do need to put out a bit more effort to approach the same brightness as the drilled reeds have. But to me the added depth of the sound is worth it. Also, I have no response issues with non-drilled vs. drilled, just a small adjustment in how I use support and air.

So I guess I'm in Magical Pig's camp - I just put them on and play them.

[magical pig]

Let's ban reed drilling. Let's found the "RPC", the Reeds Protection Cooperative, he, he, he... :twisted:

Victor.

[cjmdsax]

Yeah, reeds have rights too! The poor things are shipped tightly packaged, then they are poked, prodded, tested, physically altered, bought, mistreated (not necessarily in that order :) ). They are treated like slaves, I tell you, slaves!!

[jrvinson45]

Lemme see... after you drill the reed, then what? Has anyone tried mounting resonance stones in them?

[nelsonjohnson]

Laugh if you will! I will drill drill drill! Or not. I'm sorry if I'm, how shall I say it, anal about this s**t, but my curiosity has got the best of me. I have this one reed. It's a Rico Royal with the plastic label still on the thing, and it just sounds miraculously good. I have used the reed with a Xaphoon and a bamboo gizmo, and now with my new Buescher TT. I live in SF and I go to a tunnel near Sutro baths. It has holes in the sides where the waves crash against the rocks. I play that reed and people come in there and just listen quietly. To me that is very rewarding. So, I wanted to clone that reed.

I have done more anal probing and used a micrometer on the good reed. I measured it at six points, from the tip to the back of the vamp. At the tip, .01 inches exactly. At about the middle, .04" exactly. At the point where the curve meets the rails, .60. Now that's anal. But it turns out that when I carve another Royal so it matches those dementsions the sucker plays a little stuffier but has the range right down to the low B-flat, very even. So, to brighten it up I take a little off the front, about 3/8" in, and behold, a brilliant sound just like my treasured RR! No holes drilled.

Another thing, if the reed is too stiff to bend to seal to the rails it is very hard to blow. I shave the rails down so that when I press the tip of the reed down it closes the opening. That's the other part of the tweak.

I actually was able to manufacture two other reeds to just about the same as the treasured RR, and tweaked them a little so now I have three clones of my reed.

I've been playing alto for over twenty years, soprano for about 8 and I just started with tenor a couple of months ago. So far it's my favorite, and my family and the neighbors seem to like it too. I play with an old timey band for fun, and they are just relieved as hell that I am not trying to compete with the trumpets. Now that I have a set of reeds, some drilled and some cloned, I am very happy. I just thought I would share my happiness here.

I think you understand, as good natured as you guys seem to be. You know that music is about the heart and the soul, and the brain is just along for the ride.

Now to use those reeds at the Blues Festival!

[Dan_camsky]

It is unquestionable that almost any factor can affect the sound produced by a sax. Reed, mouthpiece, horn (in many aspects), player, ambient in witch we are playing, how much hair is left on our head:D. and so on. Some of these (and many other) factors can affect the sound minimally. Others can affect consederably.
This procedure of drilling sure can affect too. How much and in what way are the questions to answer.

As I am a very curious person, and somewhat scientific, I analised by FFT 3 different notes played with a reed in my Yamaha alto 62 sax (Yamaha 7C mouthpiece). I drilled the reed as proposed in this tread. Then I reanalised the sound of the same 3 notes after drilling. The pictures bellow are the FFT analisys: the upper half before drilling, the lower half after drilling. Take your own conclusions.

Dan

[jbarrera]

It is unquestionable that almost any factor can affect the sound produced by a sax. Reed, mouthpiece, horn (in many aspects), player, ambient in witch we are playing, how much hair is left on our head:D. and so on. Some of these (and many other) factors can affect the sound minimally. Others can affect consederably.
This procedure of drilling sure can affect too. How much and in what way are the questions to answer.

As I am a very curious person, and somewhat scientific, I analised by FFT 3 different notes played with a reed in my Yamaha alto 62 sax (Yamaha 7C mouthpiece). I drilled the reed as proposed in this tread. Then I reanalised the sound of the same 3 notes after drilling. The pictures bellow are the FFT analisys: the upper half before drilling, the lower half after drilling. Take your own conclusions.

Dan

Very interesting, do you have the audio files for these examples?

[cjmdsax]

Very cool. So, it looks like drilled reeds played louder and the partials have different strengths and distributions too.

I'll have to keep a box of drilled reeds handy for louder playing.

[GeneraloftheSaxArmy]

Lemme see... after you drill the reed, then what? Has anyone tried mounting resonance stones in them?

Actually I've put a tiny microphone in the hole so as to amplify the vibrations:twisted:

[martinm5862]

!

Thanks, Bootman, for introducing me to the drilling process, and Vandoren for providing a robust conditioning system![/QUOTE]

Could you give me a little information about the Vandoren conditioning system.
Thanks,
Martinm

[Dan_camsky]

jbarrera:
I didn´t record any audio file while doing the tests. I played a long note and froze the FFT software so I could get each FFT analisys graph.

jmdsax:
I think that the drilling process does not make the reeds play louder. Remember that the vertical amplitude in the graphs are arbritrary units. The graphs only allow relative comparisons between the harmonics.

Comparing the E3 note graphs, we can say that the drilled reed E3 note had more harmonics amplitude than the nondrilled.
The G4 graphs also show more low harmonics amplitude, but less high harmonics.
For ths D5 note, the first harmonic was enhanced by the drilling too.

Dan

[nelsonjohnson]

Dan: The FFT analysis confirms my intuitive take on drilled versus non-drilled. Both techniques have their unique virtues. Drilled seems to have richer, lower harmonics. I find it harder to control the overtones, but the horn really rocks with the drilled reed. Undrilled has a more mellow, even distribution of tone. Drilled is for honkin' and undrilled is for makin' love. Both have their place in life. I must say I will be using those drilled reeds when I want to be heard and shake the rafters with that low B-flat.