Vintage Buescher Soprano - Curved vs. Straight

[SuiZen]

Are they typically equal in timber and intonation, all else being generally equal?

Bill

[Dave Dolson]

SuiZen: I've played both but only owned the straight versions. Others here rave about the curved model but the ones I've played weren't any better than my straight models. Plus the opposed bell-keys on the curved models reduced the right-hand finger space, thus allowing my fingers to constantly come into contact with the right-side bell key. I found that distracting. My curved Yanagisawas have their bell keys on the left side of the instrument and I experience no finger-interferences with the Yana sops.

Unless the player records the two and listens during play back, it is difficult, if not impossible to hear differences. The player receives a distorted impression of how each horn sounds. That is because the bell of a curved soprano projects right back at the player while a straight sop projects outward (at least that has been MY experience). It really is hard to tell, from the player's perspective, which one sounds better. AND, the differences may well involve factors other than the curved/straight nature of each instrument. It could be the normal variations that exist among ALL horns. Don't mean to offend the lovers of curved Bueschers, but that's been my experience. DAVE

[paulwl]

I own both curved and straight Bueschers and Conns (so I'm either unprejudiced or just undemanding, depending on who's reading this). I agree with Dave that the tonal difference is most apparent to the player.

Also, Dave, it's hard to "offend" the curved-B bloc when they don't really care to explain why they use this horn. It's really nobody else's business, of course, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that when they tout that darker, fluider tone, it's from their own perspective in back of the horn. And who's to say that that isn't important in your playing?

Another thing to consider is that you can monitor your tone and volume a little better with the curved bell more "in your face." This must help in blending in quartet and ensemble.

I'll add that in my experience, the curved B does have more stringent tuning/mouthpiece issues than the straight. It seems to go flat and sharp at the typical places for curved B saxes of alto/C-mel/tenor size. That's best addressed by careful pad regulation, mouthpiece trial/error, and intelligent interval/voicing practice.

Conservative mpcs help, but they need not be ultra conservative. This is a versatile and capable horn in the right hands, and incidentally, its palm key register is probably the easiest speaking of ANY soprano I've played. (The straight Buescher's is a very close second.)

[SuiZen]

Dave,

I think you've answered my question about tone.

I'm not clear on the bell keys. I have a Conn curved soprano. Is the issue the same?

Bill

[Dave Dolson]

SuiZen (Bill): I once owned a curved Conn - it had one the worst scales I'd ever experienced (I say one of the worst because I've had a few sops, straight except for the Conn, that were equally bad). As I recall, the Conn also had opposed bell keys (low B on one side, low Bb on the other side of the bell, just as are the bell keys on my vintage altos) but I don't recall my fingers touching the Conn's bell key - but that was years ago.

In that horn's defense, I sold it to a fellow trad-jazzer who was head of Disney's music-editing department, or so goes the story, and he made my Conn curvy sound great. Hmmm . . .

Paulwl: I agree with everything you wrote, except maybe the conservative mouthpiece issue, but then again, I don't have that much experience with trying various mouthpieces on various horns to solve a horn's problems. When I find a piece that plays for me, it will almost always play on anything to which I affix it. Then I become used to that piece and to play anything else just to match a certain horn's individual characteristics makes it more difficult for me to play.

Overcoming that obstacle has never seemed to be worth it to me when considering that I have other horns that play just as good as one with problems. I ask myself, "Why bother?" and go about playing those horns that play well for me. The struggle to solve one horn's problems is a waste of time, in MY opinion. Others may enjoy the challenge. I'm not trying to be flippant here, just stating what winds my spring and what doesn't. DAVE

[paulwl]

That's perfectly cool, Dave...no flippancy detected on this end.

I guess I had a teeny bit of an agenda in wanting a curved Buescher myself. I'd been told so often it was unsuitable for this or that application, and that it was the very best for others - often by the same people! - that I wanted to see and hear for myself. And after getting to know it, I found there was a lot it could do, and very little it couldn't. And it IS now a very easy-playing horn for me - all it needed was a modest upfront investment.

[Paul Cohen]

             There is a measurable acoustical difference between straight and curved sopranos. In an experiment I conducted some years ago, I took a straight and curved Buescher soprano with very close serial #s (manufactured less than a year apart from each other) from my collection. With a very accomplished soprano player (graduate student) playing both instruments using the same mouthpiece and reed, we measured the number and strength of the harmonics on each note from low Bb to high F. We found that the curved horn dampened several of the mid to high range frequencies that resulted in a less bright, darker, less nasal sound in comparison to the straight model.

           Add to that the very real psycho-acoustic dimension of how the player relates to the sound emission from the bell (closer and more direct with the curved bell), and the changes that the player can initiate just from that relationship, then the significant tonal difference between the straight and curved sopranos becomes even more apparent.

Paul Cohen
PaulC135@aol.com

[retread]

Well, there goes the neighborhood. Scientific method injected into a perfectly subjective debate. Is nothing sacred?

[Roger McWilliams]

Paul, I've done some spectral measurements on straight sopranos and on tenors. If you are able to send me some of your data, I'd be most appreciative. The particular interest will be in the upper formant differences you remark. I'll send you my e-mail address privately. My acoustics intuition as an experimental physicist feels you may be right in your observations of the tonal differences between the curved and straight sopranos. This is supported by my observations between straight and bent-neck sopranos, which goes part way towards your work's direction. I also imagine these differences are relatively small in common perception so that listeners usually would not be able to tell the difference, in that a change of mouthpiece/reed/ligature might give a simlar tonal range change. In other words, I think both you and those who have not noted a significant difference probably are right. And players are likely to notice some differences when they are attached so close to the horn.

And just to throw some gasoline on the fire, it has been my observation (via blind testing of numerous subjects) that generic listeners cannot even identify the instrument playing a note if the attack and release parts of the note are deleted from the sound. That is to say, most people cannot tell a trombone from a trumpet from a clarinet from a flute from a saxophone (much less whether it is a tenor or soprano, and even much less what variation in mouthpiece or neck properties) unless they hear the attack and release of a note.

[Harrell]

That is very interesting, Roger. Someone else told me not long ago that the trombone spectrum is very similar to the tenor one.

I would like to try to identify the instruments sans attack and release parts of the tone. My mental concept of a trombone tone is w/ attack (a little pffffaa before the tone actually sounds). So, I'm wondering if my brain would be confused if that part were missing. So, could a brain learn to recognize the tone differences without attack and release? and if it doesn't initially, is it because the brain is tricked by a part that is missing that it knows to expect?

[Gandalfe]

I gotta say, in the jazz band I was playing in we were missing trombones during the practice sessions so my bari really stood out. On the day of the concert, my director brought in some ringers to cover the bones parts. It was amazing, since the bones music was usually the same as my bari, I just felt like I disappeared.

I tried jumping on some of the parts and my son, who also plays bari and was in the audience, sez that he could rarely hear me. And I don't play too softly either. It wasn't that the bones were that much louder, it was more that we were at the same frequency (and I pride myself on my intonation).

[paulwl]

your observations of the tonal differences between the curved and straight sopranos [are] supported by my observations between straight and bent-neck sopranos [...] I also imagine these differences are relatively small in common perception so that listeners usually would not be able to tell the difference, in that a change of mouthpiece/reed/ligature might give a simlar tonal range change.
Interesting points, Roger. Paul, did your project involve different mouthpieces, or was it just intended to measure the baseline, stock setup? Or some other setup?

Also, what conclusions do you draw from your results? Would you make any rough musical guidelines for the use of these instruments from the frequency analysis? (For instance, do you think Buescher straight sopranos are usable in classical music at all? And if so, why is no one using them that way?)

[Bootman]

The difference between Curved and Straight is exactly the same as Paul Cohen has stated. The Curved horn sounds smoother, less nasal and blends better to my ear than does the straight horn. Each horn is useful for a different sound and I would recommend owning one of each. Teh difference in the modern varieties is less significant.

As for Conn Sops being difficult to play, it depends on the Sop. I have an earlier model Conn Curved with Separate Palm keys and have no problem with intonation on this instruments. I have owned Buescher Curveds and Conn Straights. I would definitely urge you to go for the separate Palm key model Conn sops over the inline variety. They feel very different to play.

[Grumps]

I chose the curved TT over the straight TT as the guy that gave it to me before he died happened to have a curved one rather than a straight one.

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

I have to agree here with you Bootman. I certainly hear a difference between curved and straight sopranos. Straight sopranos often have more of an oboeish tone quality. Curved sopranos have a lighter tone, I don't care to generalize and say they are all darker or brighter.
I've played enough Conn curved sopranos to know that you can't generalize about them either. Some have good pitch, some are more of a challange. I too like the separate palm key models but I know many who like the overlappping style. Bending them out a bit really facilitates technique. I just sold a 121,xxx curved Conn with overlapping palm keys that had wonderful intonation.

[Paul Cohen]

<<"Interesting points, Roger. Paul, did your project involve different mouthpieces, or was it just intended to measure the baseline, stock setup? Or some other setup?
Also, what conclusions do you draw from your results? Would you make any rough musical guidelines for the use of these instruments from the frequency analysis? (For instance, do you think Buescher straight sopranos are usable in classical music at all? And if so, why is no one using them that way?)">>

         As I wrote in my previous post, the mouthpiece was the same for both instruments. Both the player and mouthpiece (and reed!) needed to be the same to eliminate the potent variable each brings to the acoustic equation. The only conclusion one can draw from this experiement is that the shape of the instrument does change the sound.

          Any musical guidelines involve a necessary subjectivity that is dangerous to attempt to quantify. Suffice to say that the experimental data supports my own personal observations about instruments curved and straight. Certainly Buescher straight sopranos can be used in classical music, as can any well made soprano. It is altogether an issue of tonal and stylistic concept, and then choosing materials (instrument, mouthpiece, etc) that will support those concepts in playing.

         (By the way, I have done a reverse test with the Buescher straight alto and the conventional alto, as well as the Conn F mezzo and Conn-0-Sax. Similar results.)

Paul Cohen

[paulwl]

Bootman: I found I liked my inline Conn palms a lot better once I tightened up those wispy-thin needle springs. Before that passing breezes frequently blew them open.

Paul: You bet this is a subjective issue - but the hard data can't hurt. (If used responsibly. I'd hate for some half-baked teacher to pressure a student to change his sax because Brand X has been scientifically proven to sound less like bad subway brakes! :? )

In particular, I'd like to see what different setups do to the straight/curved response, and what a panel of educated lay listeners thinks of the whole thing (if anything :) ).

[Harrell]

Thank you for your note, Paul. I'm particularly glad to hear you say something about blowing open the palm key pads, because I believe I do that on tenor. I have a rubber band around the longest palm key (pad closest to the neck) because when I need volume, that pad will buzz. I can hear it buzzing. The rubber band makes the buzzing stop but I have to move it every so often because the rubber band can bond to the horn and make an ugly mark. Also, it makes the key operation too stiff, but I do it anyway.

When you tightened up the spring, did you just bend it into a tighter curve or did you get a new spring? If you got a new one, what brand?

[Bootman]

Harrell,
The usual trick is to retension the spring unless it is worn out in which case you get the spring replaced.

Paulwl,
I just prefer the feel of the separate palm keys, not thatthe inline models are inferior soundwise, it is purelya comfort thing.

[super20dan]

my experience w buescher curved sops has not been good.the straight buescher is a far better horn and the later ones are so good its scary. my conn curved is the same vintage as bootmans and is much better than the buescher curved is used to own. however my curved yani is my first choice to play

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

Dan, Are you talking about that really early Buescher curved soprano that I worked on for you years back? That horn had some real problems and was way to early to be considered a good curved Buescher. The later curved Bueschers are completely different horns. They compare very favorably to the Conns and I think their sound really beats the Yanis.

[super20dan]

yes galye -thats the horn. it was a very early one and its not fair to comdem all curved bueschers i guess. you know how good my conn is since i got it from you but the yani (curved) is so good i never use the conn any more. sound wise and especially key action vise it blows away any vintage curved sop i have ever played. i still play the straight yani (from you also) in german band.

[Bootman]

Dan,
German band? That could be scary. How do you get away with not having to play everything on clarinet?

I found a very scary yesterday, a gold plated Saxello from Taiwan. keywork, sound etc..... it compared with my Buescher and Conn in terms of sound/ projection. The finish was exceptional and the thickness of tone knocked me out. It was also noticeably better than my old silver CB Arc sop too.

Now if they would only make a low A model with a solid silver neck then I would be in Soprano Saxophone Nirvana.

[super20dan]

bootman -i also play clarinet in the german band . some of the marches we play are american arrangments (by bill mofit) and sound good on sop sax. on some of the harder clarinet peices (the ones that go really high)i cheat and have transposed them to eb and use the eb clarinet. my mate who dosnt play clarinet at all uses his yani sopranino on the eb parts. the clashes in pitchs between the eb clarinet and sopranino are frightful but since this a german band and intonation is expected to be suspect at times. after a few stines of beer it doesnt matter anyway-we have fun and thats what counts

[Jerry K.]

"I found a very scary yesterday, a gold plated Saxello from Taiwan. keywork, sound etc..... it compared with my Buescher and Conn in terms of sound/ projection. The finish was exceptional and the thickness of tone knocked me out. It was also noticeably better than my old silver CB Arc sop too."

So Bootman, did you buy this saxello? What is the brand and what is the cost of this horn?

[Bootman]

Didn't buy it yet, not enough spare cash. I am also waiting to see if they willmake a no high F# model and possibly even a low A as well. Someone has to do it.

[Harrell]

Bootman, I read in some of the literature I have here that you're not supposed to 'retension' the springs (i.e. bend them in the opposite direction). I don't know why, but I don't have much experience with saxophone springs - clarinet ones rarely ever give any problems. In my case, the palm key that I blow open, the problem is probably a combination of spring and pad. I mentioned this to another sax player and he didn't believe me that I was blowing open that key.

On the strength of your recommendation, I did take the key off and 'retension' the spring (a nice way to say I bent that spring into a greater curvature). It seems to be playing now.

[paulwl]

What are you supposed to do when a spring goes slack? Run right out to the repair shop and have them put in a brand new one? Not always a real world solution...

[Bootman]

Harrell,
Great news. We often need to retension springs on various instruments at gigs etc... It is one of the many little repair tricks that every player needs to know. The throat notes on the clarinet are often prone to this problem of blowing open too.

[Harrell]

Thank you, Bootman. In 40 years of play hell outa my Dixieland clarinet, I've never had a problem with a clarinet key 'blowing open', and when it started happening to me on tenor, I told an experienced tenor person who told me that it was unlikely that I could 'blow open' a palm key. Well, I knew differently.

I wish I could remember where I read that you're not supposed to bend springs ... I'll find it sometime and be back! OF course, that is all there is to do at a gig when a spring isn't functioning.

Right now I'm just wishing that my SG Unison would get here. I'm limping through my regular gig with a horn that needs some work (but is still highly playable!)

[paulwl]

So, ppl...the question remains before us:
Buescher Soprano: Curved or Straight?

[ ] Curved
[ ] Straight
[x] Either
[ ] Neither
[ ] Wish Buescher had made a Saxello

[Bootman]

Wish Buescher had made a Saxello

[Dave Dolson]

Buescher made a tipped-bell sop in the '20's. While I've never played one, I'll bet it was much better than the Saxello. DAVE

[Bootman]

The tipped Bell Buescher sop looks good but I would want a curved neck as well.

I ordered the Saxello from Taiwan without the high F# in Gold Plate. I am just awaiting it to arrive. The solid silver neck shouldn't be too far off either. It comes with a straight and a Curved neck too.

[Paul Coats]

"That is to say, most people cannot tell a trombone from a trumpet from a clarinet from a flute from a saxophone (much less whether it is a tenor or soprano, and even much less what variation in mouthpiece or neck properties) unless they hear the attack and release of a note."

Roger is absolutely correct!!! This is why some people can so successfully imitate other people's speaking voice. They cannot immitate the timbre of the voice, but they CAN, and DO, imitate their articulation.

I had a friend in college, a trumpet player. She got bad marks in jury on her tone. He private teacher told her, "Your tone is not really the problem. It is your attacks and release. Let's just work on that this semester." So, for the entire semester that is all she worked on.

At the next jury, she got all A's. She showed me the comments from the jurors... "Tone much improved!" "Excellent tone!", etc.

My experiments with straight and curved necks showed that the tonal difference is mostly from the direction of the bell, not from anything related to the curve of the neck proper. If the player, with curved neck, tilted his head back, bringing the bell up, the tone was the same as with the straight neck.

Also, with two sopranos from the same manufacturer, one fully curved, one straight, up close to a listener, or to the player, there was quite a difference. BUT, out in the seats of the concert hall, there was virtually NO difference in tone.

But I do note that a curved soprano is easier to mic in a combo or big band situation. Also, my sax quartet says they can hear me better with the curved soprano. But out in the audience, there is no difference.