do you have the same experience with your Cannonball [Archive]

Balladeer

06-24-2004, 11:54 PM

My experience with a Cannonball Big Bell tenor 2 years ago...

* though I hadn't played tenor (only alto & soprano) since 1971, I knew there was something missing in the tone within 5 minutes of playing it. (My alto is a Mark VI and my last tenor had been a great Mark VI).

* the key positions seemed strange, like G# which seems way too close to the LH 3rd finger on G.

* after two trips to a tech at a Cball dealer 230 miles away the horn functioned perfectly and intonated perfectly.

* the notes below D1 were louder than the other notes rather than being evenly balanced.

* altissimo was more difficult than it should have been.

* the instrument seemed to be overly air hungry.

* the tone was so clear and neutral as to lack the multi-dimensional complexity that I love in a tenor (though it would be good for symphonic band).

* what really pained me was the fact that I bought this instrument from a dealer in New Orleans who assured me that the horn was exactly what I was looking for. The day I received the instrument I called the dealer and expressed my skepticism. He then used intimidation and raving posts on this website to influence me to keep the horn (so he could keep the $$). He won that battle but lost his Cannonball dealership privileges and his privileges on this website.

* 4 months after getting the Cannonbell I found a tenor more to my liking

Saxaholic

06-25-2004, 02:09 AM

In my opinion, the Cannonball makes for a great big band horn. I owned a Cannonball alto for about 18 months, and enjoyed playing it. I used the horn in every possible situation: lead alto in a big band, jazz quartet, sax quartet, symphonic band, classical soloist. It performed equally well in all of these venues.

I found the tone to be very big and ballsy when you needed it. I admit I was searching for more complexity in the tone for my soloist venues, but I believe that to be more influenced by mouthpiece setup. A vintage New York Meyer 4M helped with this, and a JJ #6 was even better for the sound.

Make sure the horn is setup perfectly first. Next, make sure it isn't just the Cannonball. Try some other horns in the same situations, if you can. Borrow a buddy's Selmer or something if you can, and see if you come up with the same result. We all sound better in an acoustic room with reverb, simply because we can hear ourselves and the sound is more 'alive'.

Do some long tones too. This will improve your tone and intonation. I think you need to find the right mouthpiece as well. Make sure the horn isn't leaking and find a good mouthpiece that responds well with the Cannonball. Good luck.

Saxaholic

Minatar12

06-25-2004, 09:37 AM

I really like the sound I get out of my big bell alto in all situations...but it took me awhile. I really had to find a mouthpiece that worked well with the instrument.

Joshuasax1

07-21-2004, 04:21 AM

I have played every model made and they all play very well. Every sax has issues, the sax will always have problems. You sacrifice one issue to gain another. Everyone is a Selmer head and expert around here, will use a Balanced Action and Mark VI for example. The Balanced Action has more body and meat to the sound, but you give up some intonation to get it. Mark VI is more centerd. A good player doesn't care, he picks what he wants and plays the dog out of it. That goes with any model or Brand. JUST PLAY THE THING AND MAKE HEADS TURN. The mouthpiece and pad work is the key. Many Cannonball players have come to me with problems, blaiming the horn. Most of them were satisfied in knowing that the problem was with their Mouthpeice selection and playing characteristics. Once these minor issues were revealed and corrected, the customers were satisfied with the horn. Another problem is finding a store that has a variety of mouthpieces and horns to choose from. We try to keep that issue solved.

mark_m_ny

07-21-2004, 02:21 PM

I have not tried any Cannonball and will not anytime soon.

However it's marketed as 'big bell'??? I owmned a Keilwerth before and realized I played against walls and corners when practising so it sounded quite nice. Into the open, no gratification, spread sound.

I traded it in for a Series 3 and boom, all problems solved. You could play outside in nature and the thing will still sound beautiful, the sound of selmers (except the ref 36) carries far and projects which in turn to me is part of the artistic flexibility to be able to go bright and focussed and spread and dark by embochure control.

In the meantime I switched to Selmer series 2 on tenor and love it even more becuase the sound si even more focussed and projects realy far. The tradeoff is a bit of a tight blowing horn which I happen to like a lot. I get tremendous volume to cut through out of the 2 which I would have never out the Keilwerth.

To bad your cannonball has a low trade value, so the switch back to selmer might be a money loss for you.

stevesklar

08-10-2004, 12:40 PM

This is all very interesting. About 6 months ago I started searching for a new tenor. My search was originally looking for a really good condition Couf (i have a long history w/Couf horns). Couldn't find it.

So my local store brought in a Yamaha 875, Cannonball Big Bell, Selmer Series 2, and a couple other horns.

My mpc of choice is a Couf which in internal design in similar to a 60's Selmer Soloist mpc. I also have Selmers, Oto, etc.

The 875 had wonderful complexities in the tone.
The Cannonball actually was 2nd, though it seemed a long 2nd
The Series 2 was 3rd, more neutral/focused sounding.

I basically decided on the 875. But after having 2nd thoughts, and primarily money withdraw symptoms (it costs alot becz I put my kids first) I pulled out the Cannonball again for a test at home (also half the cost of the 875).

The cannonball keyaction was close to the 875. LH table was fine for my small hands. RH table was bad. my pinky hits the post while pressing the C. But I made a slight thumbrest move and made it better (though i can still hit the post - why is it higher than the table keys ??)

Also the RH stack i have to keep my hand more open than other horns. But i noticed that it also put the palm keys closer to my hand, i guess an okay tradeoff.

I must also say, after looking it over, it looks vaguely familiar to Kesslers Bronze Big Bell horn (seen only in pictures - which is no longer available).

I wonder if the Cannonballs use more copper in their tubes (bronze)?

The horn does sound really good to me. But on a Selmer S80 it does lack complexity.

I may just end up with a Cannonball BB

terrryc

10-07-2004, 03:31 PM

:lol: cannonball horns as a rule are taiwanese junk posing as top-of-the-line instruments. if your music store is in any way shape or form reputable, it will not carry these awful things. the key problem is metallurgy. cannonball products do not have the quality of brass necessary to give the sound you want. try an old conn or buescher and you'll see. also, they posess 'approximate' intonation. you have to work like hell to get the thing to sound properly. THESE ARE TAIWANESE CRAP! WARNING! WARNING!

stevesklar

10-07-2004, 03:40 PM

to each their own Terrrryc

The cannonballs are nice Taiwan horns. Everyone knows that. Also their older horns are not as nice as they had intonation problems, etc. I think they call it Evolution.

But I would not rank them up there with a Couf or Yamaha or Selmer in keywork smoothness, etc. But they sound pretty good to a bunch of players out there. After all, how many ppl on SOTW have Antigua sopranos which are also Taiwan horns?

btw, good *first* post.

Stacey

10-07-2004, 04:26 PM

I'm just impressed that a complete stranger knows what sound I want. Perhaps he can tell me where I lost my high school class ring back in 1985, too - I'd love to get it back.

I have "an old Conn", "a Cannonball piece of junk", and a modern Selmer. The Cannonball has the best sound of the three, the second best construction (after the Selmer), and the second best intonation (also after the Selmer).

WARNING: ALL horns, regardless of make, possess "approximate intonation". You need to use a good embouchure and proper air support to play in tune.

Jerry K.

10-07-2004, 04:49 PM

Dear new SOTW participant terryc, do you mean to suggest that all horns made in Taiwan are "crap" as you put it? If this is your intent, you are either misinformed or you have an agenda. I have played and owned lots of saxes made in Germany, France, USA, and Taiwan. I have played Taiwanese horns that hold their own with Selmer, Keilwerth and Yamaha in most every regard.

Before posting broad generalities you should:

A. Leave the house,
B. Go to a well stocked music store and play everything new they have, including several of the top Taiwanese brands to include Cannonball, Jupiter, Unison, Antigua, etc...
C. Post your new opinion.

jaankaden

10-07-2004, 05:23 PM

i'm gonna have to go with what the rest say, terryc, and that your post was just bad. sure, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but when it reeks of such narrow-mindedness as yours, it really brings nothing much, if at all, to the table.

Dave Dolson

10-07-2004, 06:08 PM

I stumbled across this thread this morning. I do not own a CB but played a couple in stores. I agree about the post from a new forum member - way too pushy and narrow-minded with no back-up. I've owned/own Taiwanese saxophones that are wonderful players.

However, the original post was about how NEWSAX played his CB in a "live" room while playing alone, yet was disappointed in the horn's performance elsewhere (paraphrased, I know).

THAT is the test of any equipment - everything I own sounds great in my kitchen/family room ("live" doesn't adequately describe the acoustics). But when I'm out 'n' about, things change rapidly. I may discover a new mouthpiece (or horn for that matter) that plays great at home, but in an ensemble, I'm quickly looking through my case for a different mouthpiece (or going out to my car on the break to retrieve a back-up horn).

Over the years, I've learned what plays best for me - and I've learned how to project (which one doesn't necessarily learn by playing against a hard surface). I'd guess that CB horn can produce, it just may be a matter of embouchure development and the old equipment search we all go through. Anything new must be tested and proven on the band stand. DAVE

shmuelyosef

10-07-2004, 11:34 PM

A statement I've made on the site before but bears repeating. Both for development of embouchre/tone and to see if you like a horn...practice long tones outdoors. Either in your yard or a local park. The best situation is about 5 meters from a big wall or the like, so you get no reverb but get to hear your 'first bounce'.

Bill Mecca

10-08-2004, 01:18 AM

right on, right on, right on....

I try to play as much as possible in the parking lot at work during lunch. an old brick bldg about 30-40 yards away in one direction, another about 60-100 yards in another... even facing the trunk of my car, the sound is huge... I've been doing this for years, and it has helped open up the sound immensely.

Arnett Cobb is one who reportedly used to play facing the prairie outside his back door, felt it was a great help for his sound.

Bodhi

10-15-2004, 12:30 AM

Interesting enough thread. The former owner of the Mark VII I had wanted it back badly enough so I sold it to him. I went to the local shop and narrowed it down to a 10M, Balanced Action and Cannonball Raven. I eliminated the 10M only because of the egronomics. Yes I probably could have gotten use to it but I had the Chu before. So it really came down to the BA and The Ball. Changing the black neck to the silver is one of the things that put me on the Cannonball side. I also felt it was a real solid horn. As far as any difference in playing locations or styles, I haven't experinced that issue with this horn. I've had a .120 bright loud mouthpiece on it, playing an Otto Link STM 7* right now and waiting on the Guardala Crescent coming in the mail. Here's a loop we engineered in our rehearsal room using an Apple laptop and a Shure 56A. Nothing mastered just some raw sampling. The track you first hear doesn't have the horn, click on the right green light. Cannonball Raven, Otto Link 7* STM with Alexander Superial 2 1/2 reeds. http://www.bluemarblebeat.com/sounds.html

CashSax

11-08-2004, 11:27 PM

Cannonballs are the bang for the buck far as I can hear..I own three along with a collection of vintage to die for..these horns simply stand up..built like tanks, yeah don't cut yerself.. action is quick and all the sound you can muster..so why am I selling a couple of mine ??well thats another story. 8-)

Randall

11-09-2004, 03:47 AM

Cash, You wouldn't happen to be selling a BB soprano, would you?

CashSax

11-09-2004, 07:19 AM

No Randall, my CB Sop is a Crown Royal and not for sale right now.

I'm selling my Megs..they're in the Marketplace..no Ebay just yet..

Randall

11-09-2004, 07:44 AM

Thanks Cash...I am really interested in the curved BB horn....I had an early Cball saxello sop that I didn't care for at all...

CashSax

11-10-2004, 12:06 AM

Hey Randall, that's a good thought..I saw a BB curvy a couple yrs back looked NICE..let me know if you you find an extra one ..I'd sell my Silver straight RC to get one..

Saxer

01-10-2005, 05:21 PM

I have owned a Big Bell Mad Meg since the summer. I also have a Yam 52 and a Conn 10m. I have to say that the Yam and Conn linkage feels cheap to me after playing the Big Bell. Many of the guys I jam with own Yamaha, and are very quick to ask to try my Big Bell even if they had already tried it the week before and the week before that. :-) I am very happy with the Cannonball, and have never had anything but good remarks from others who have tried it out.

Tenki

04-26-2005, 06:15 AM

:twisted: I love my cannonball -hugs it- The humongous bell on my tenor makes for a nice fat sound, and allows for unique little tone tricks that I can play around with in my solos. Altissimo notes are a little difficult, but that can be easily controlled with mouthpieces. I guess the problem is I'm using a selmer C*. Yeah, I know, I'm too cheap to buy an otto link or berg larson. Anyway I guess cannonballs are just my cup of tea :o

saxguy007

08-16-2005, 08:35 PM

I really like my CB big bell tenor. The local repair shop sells them, and its proprietor swears up and down that the more recent models are as problem-free as can be had. I was skeptical, assuming Taiwan=crap, but I just flat out loved that fat warm sound and low end.

Might there be a horn I like even better out there? Maybe, but I sure as heck love the sound and key action I'm getting. And for the money? My take on CB boils down to: At least try one out, you might do your wallet a favor.

Jim Bjork

P.S. Cannonballs not hold value used? BS! A black nickel CB big bell just sold on ebay for over $1600, and I bought my newer model with tiger eye stone keys for $1700 only a few months ago. Mad megs that are well presented by reputable ebay sellers are also getting good money, not much less than new.

altosaxguy1

10-22-2005, 04:51 PM

MikeCa

10-29-2005, 06:33 AM

My experience with these is lots of people are loving them but they seem to be overpriced in the marketplace as they are made in Taiwan and there is no internet sale of them allowed and the dealers really hang on to the margin on these. I have tried them several times and they just don't float my boat but seem to be very well made. I personally get a much better tone from the Unison 300 model altos and 400 model tenors and have seen them at way less than what people around here (Central Valley, Ca.) are paying for the CB's. It is my understanding that the Unisons are no longer available but something called Hollywoodwinds (from Rheuben Allen and Shuhn Wah Chang) will be out soon, have yet to see or play one. Dave Kessler had also mentioned a new Unison that might be hitting the market soon.

I, of course am a bit of a snob and prefer Selmers, especially the new reference models. I like the power of Yanagisawas (and also the intonation) and the huge booming sound you can get from a Keilwerth. It's defintely a tough choice between some truly great horns.

To sum it up I feel about the Cannonball about the same way I feel about Yamahas, they are great horns but the sound just doesn't get it for me. Plenty of people like them, they are more than adequate but...

My own personal favorite horn (which is what I play the most) is a King Super 20 alto from the '70's with the sterling bell. Great horn but there's a lot to be said for the improved intonation on newer horns. If I had to buy a new horn now I'd be very, very torn as it is awfully tempting to go with the Taiwan horns that are so good, certainly better than the price comparison to a Selmer but then again the Selmer, Keilwerth, Yani is definitely a better horn. Then again you can get a horn that's almost as good for a fraction of the price, etc. etc. etc.

To sum it up the Taiwan horns are great for the price but they aren't one of the handmade European or Japanese horns. Between the big names it's just a matter of what works best for you and if you don't have the money then go for the Taiwan horn, Jupiter, Unison, Cannonball, they are more than adequate for most situations. Also be aware of stuff coming out China. It is getting better all the time. In a couple years the Taiwanese are going to be in some heavy competition.

Just my opinion!

saxguy007

11-01-2005, 05:53 PM

I can understand how CB just doesn't do it for MikeCA and others. Once workmanship and durability are roughly equalized, it just boils down to individual differences in what our idealized sound is.

I absolutely LOVE my CB tenor and new CB bari, but I have not found a CB alto in any finish whose tone color I like better than my Mark VII alto.

I think the CB altos feel solid but smooth under my fingers, and I would have no qualms about using one for a gig, as they generally sounded very nice, and play in tune without having to exert much embouchure effort. They all spoke with a very clear, clean voice, but I have become accustomed to a slight fatty warmth in my Mark VII's tone.

I think on some level, everyone has their ideal sound, and there may be several sax makes out there that are of good quality and durability, but just might not have the tone color one has in mind as an "ideal" sound.

Blackwolf42

02-01-2006, 05:35 AM

I have a Cannonball soprano and a Ref 54 tenor. The soprano beats any other soprano I have ever played (only Yamaha-475, old Martin Handcraft, Yanagisawa 800 something, Selmer Series III, and several cheap horns). When I first embarassingly told my teacher I was considering buying one, he told me they were quite bad. But he then tried it in the shop, and thought it was a fun little horn, very impressed with it for the price. My main problem with it is that it doesn't seem to stay in adjustment very long. I tried a CB tenor, and loved the low end, but thought it thinned out in the upper register. It might have been my mouthpiece choice at the time...

Hornless :(

03-25-2006, 03:43 AM

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a minute if I may:

My first horn out of college in 98-99 was the Cannonball tenor and sop in black laq/gold key finish. Not sure the model and I don't believe I have the serials laying around in any pics (the days before digital cameras).

I was impressed that the horns were cheap, and played surprisingly in tune from the shop (they had just been adjusted). At the time I was working for a musical supplier/internet co that was located in Des Plaines IL (I don't think they're around anymore) and the repair person there was EXCELLENT, he had seen alot of horns and was a very good foundation for my 'education' in buying saxophones (through college I was given a Selmer Series II to play).

This being said, after a month of bar playing, the love affair was over, the horn needed constant repair and while I was not the most gentle of stage players that horn looked like I hit it with my car after a few nights of jumping around.

He went through and with a Mark IV from a gigging client as a side by side comparison, proceeded to instruct me as to the ways of making horns present day.

I was a bit disheartened to say the least...

Needless to say it wasn't going to work, so I sold both for a pretty large loss and from then on have had a hard time believing all the hype about horns that are stamped out from Taiwan.

Now, the newer horns look loads better, not only in finish but also in construction.

However the 'uneasy' meter starts to go up when I see their web page and how they are trying to patent putting stones instead of pearls in their keys and the whole 'resonance stone' thing as a significant improvement in the sound of the instrument.

HOWEVER, that being said, I have not played one of the Stoner models as of yet, so while I am incredibly skeptical of their claims, the proof is in the pudding I suppose.

I found a dealer up here that carries their line, so I shall take my rusty chops and see if I can't make that stone pop out of the neck one of these days!

:shock:

silverghost

03-25-2006, 10:25 PM

unless i'm mistaken... the line that was in production before the big bell series was definitely not up to the same durability level. as in, the big bells set a new standard. I've been playing mine for three years now and haven't had to get it fixed once, and that includes bringing it back/forth to school and playing in school every day.... and we all know what school does to saxes. like many in this thread, i played my cannonball up against the so-called 'best of the best'--the yamahas, the selmers, etc. this horn was just a good fit for me

BayviewSax

03-25-2006, 10:38 PM

CB makes a good intermediate horn. The first one I played was a monster (a big bell) but subsequent ones just left me feeling neutered. In their defense, so do the overpriced Yamahas (82Z, 875). The biggest thing for me was, I felt like I was playing an entire horn made just like a modern Link STM. WAAAAAAAY too much work to get any gusto behind it. If you can stand the horrid ergos, I'd recommend an old American horn like a 10M or a Zephyr. Even after the overhaul you'll still be in the same price range. Just my $.02. FWIW, I play both VIs and Conns. The VIs are overpriced right now, but they're still the standard, IMHO.

Randall

03-25-2006, 11:32 PM

I have played almost all the CB line from the early horns to the modern stone series.
My experience was from pure delight to absolute disgust on the earlier models.

I found a 98 alto that is my favorite sounding alto out of a stable of very high end and fantastic playing horns (Ref 54, Series III Millennium, JK straight, JK silver sonic, TH&C).

And yes, there are some durability problems with it.

I got my tech to go through it and modify / replace a few things and it is now sturdy as can be.

The newer Big Bell and Stone Series horns are a completely different story in quality, finish and workmanship. I think the entire line (sop ~ bari) is now at the point where I feel very safe to recommend one of these horns to anyone looking to buy a new professional level horn. I didn't always feel that way about their tenors and sopranos.
They are indeed excellent instruments and for the cost, they really cannot be beat.

I play a Stone Series Raven bari, a Big Bell curved soprano and a 98 Copper plated alto.

Blackwolf42

03-26-2006, 12:19 AM

The main problem I have with my CB soprano is durability, at least with the keywork. The side Bb key is very flimsy; in fact, the other day, I couldn't even play the the Bb with the side key-it wouldn't make a sound. The octave mechanism keeps needing to be screwed in, but that doesn't really bother me. However, the finish seems indestructable. Every time I accidentally hit something with my saxophone, such as a belt buckle or other metal object, it never seems to damage the finish.

altopro

04-17-2006, 12:32 AM

i don't care what half of you think about the cannonball saxophones. personally i have had an alto for about two years and in that time i have been competing in more than four state tournaments and in three of them i have taken 3rd twice and 2nd once, and in the tournaments most of the other students have selmers mark VI and king super 20 which ya are nice but they cost more tan 3,000 dallors and the Cannonball sax series are less than that and play just as nice and the selmers and kings didn't do that well. so all of you that belive that they don't compare to the great brands can shut up and pull your head out of your *** and stop complaining. it is not always the instrument it is the player. i'm in the nineth grade and by the sounds of it i'm playing better than most of u.

from altopro