Ref 36 vs SBA

[Tears June]

Many player compare Ref 36 with 54, or Ref 54 with mark VI.

But seldom to compare Ref 36 with SBA. I'm how much Ref 36 sounds like a SBA ?

:cry:

[Lenny]

I was going to wait for people with more experience on both horns to respond to this but since no one else has I'll give it a stab. I've only tried the 36's in shops and had an SBA to play with for a few weeks. They seemed quite different to me. The SBA was darker, more freeblowing and pretty damn great. The 36's seemed like very good horns but were more modern in sound. They certainly aren't real copies if only because the tenon size on the SBA's is much larger than on the 36 which is more like a modern Selmer or late Mk VI.
MY caveat always is that I'm an amateur so more experienced players may have more valuable input than me.

[Dave Dolson]

Lenny: MY caveat would be that every horn has its variables. It is VERY difficult to accurately say that all SBAs will or will not play better than all Ref 36's. This is the same discussion that goes on and on here on SOTW - which brand, model, etc. is better. Those questions just cannot be answered with any objectivity. DAVE

[Lenny]

Certainly true that every horn is an exception, though that shouldn't make it impossible to generalize.

[Tears June]

I think can be difficult to compare a SBA & Ref 36 side by side because SBA is not too easy to find in the same time with 36 in an instrument shop.

Another comparison is Ref 36 and Series III. I wonder if they sound similar, more bright, more open and spread sound.


:cry:

[Dr G]

I think can be difficult to compare a SBA & Ref 36 side by side because SBA is not too easy to find in the same time with 36 in an instrument shop.

Another comparison is Ref 36 and Series III. I wonder if they sound similar, more bright, more open and spread sound.

Well, I only had a BA for 15 years or so, so I guess my experience doesn't count. :?

Several of us have commented on the III/Ref 36 comparison at length in the past. I've actually had two Ref 36's, one matte III, and one lacquer III in the studio all at once for several days. During that time, I found the matte III just dull, the lacquer III bright, and found one Ref 36 that I enjoy for its tone, response, and presence. I still have that horn. :lol:

... and one other. :borg:

[Rev. D]

Although I have never played an SBA, I do play a Ref. 36 and it is definitely a darker sound than a Mk VI, and in that sense, may be a move in the direction of an SBA. Setup is a really crucial issue with the Reference horns. On the previous version of this site, there was a thread that discussed the importance of neck diameter at the corked opening. It seems that there is significant variation between horns here. Those with openings slightly more than .5" seem to play better than those that are narrower, if I remember correctly. Saxquest and Tenor Madness are the people who know the most about this. Anyway, a lot of the complaints about stuffiness and resistance in Reference horns have to do with this issue. For the record, I have a great Super 20 tenor, but love my 36 even more: bigger sound, freer blowing, better keywork.

[scale_master]

Actually, comparing the Ref36 to the SBA is like comparing a Keilwerth to a SBA. They are different. Don't fall for the marketing tricks they try to impose on you. If you see a car commercial where he gets the woman, do you believe that? I stopped long time ago....

B.

To be more specific, I played a Ref36, a 54 side by side with my SBA and MKVI. They are all great horns, no doubt. They are all Selmers. But they are all different also.

[Tears June]

Personally have test a Clear lacquered Series III, which sound OK but a big bright for my ear.
Unfountaley, no chance to try a Ref 36 or 54 because not available in my area, which must place international mail order.

My concern is I'm worry I will be regret to order an expensive Ref 36 without test it. What about if I don't like the sound...? Seem like to gamble.
My ideal tenor sound is slightly to medium dark, thick, rich , colorful tone & good sonic characteristic.


Here is a sound clip to compare Ref 36 and Mark VI (However, even the same horn, 10 players have 10 different sounds)

http://www.olympus.net/personal/markh/music_links.html


:cry:

[Dr G]

Actually, comparing the Ref36 to the SBA is like comparing a Keilwerth to a SBA. They are different.

To be more specific, I played a Ref36, a 54 side by side with my SBA and MKVI. They are all great horns, no doubt. They are all Selmers. But they are all different also.

Which is it? All Selmers or so different as to be more like K-horn vs. SBA? There _is_ a Selmer sound - the Ref 36 is definitely NOT anything close to a JK. Of the III/36/54, they are close enough that swapping necks and mouthpieces can bring them all very close to one another. And how many Mk VI's actually sound exactly alike anyhow?

The greater difference, to me, was the feel of the keywork - especially in the left hand - between the III and the 36/54. I prefer the old-style, close-to-the-tube, palm keys. Others either don't care or have no preference.

P.S. I'm glad that you stopped buying cars to get the girls. What made you realize that it wasn't working. :shock: :wink:

[scale_master]

Which is it? All Selmers or so different as to be more like K-horn vs. SBA?

Dr. G, I don't get yur syntax here, sorry.
I agree that there is a Selmer typical sound, Keilwerths also have a typical sound. However, the variety of sounds you get from different Selmer models is huge, even different horns form the same model. Guess this is what I wanted to express with my comparison.

To me, there is one distinct sound feature that I cannot get from any modern horn: the sound color changes considerably with airstream/volume/embouchure modifications. This is most noticeable on the Tenors (I am not an Alto player as main instrument...)
I have to admit, though, that I haven't checked out the bronze Yanis yet.

P.S.:
Oh, and rg. cars and girls: I never had an expensive car, but always dated great girls....

[Dr G]

scale-master - I think we agree on the issue of Selmer-sound vs. others. Maybe I'm not as demanding as you (although Im usually characterized as pretty picky) but I find the Ref 36 and my Borgani Jubilee to both be very responsive to color changes. That's why they're here. I've used my Ref 36 for everything from classical quartet to swing band to contemporary big band to R&B gigs and have been very happy in every circumstance. I don't know (yet) whether the Borg' will be as versatile but since I'm not giving up the Ref 36, it's not an issue. My observation is that there are indeed a few modern honrs around that do it all, and do it well.

Go for the tone! :borg:

[Tears June]

Dr. G

In the following test report, it mentioned Ref 36 sounds very similar with Series II (But Ref 36 more resonance and greater tonal depth). You're a Ref 36 user, what do you think?

http://www.saxophones.co.uk/tenor_sax_tests.htm

:cry:

[Dr G]

In the following test report, it mentioned Ref 36 sounds very similar with Series II (But Ref 36 more resonance and greater tonal depth). You're a Ref 36 user, what do you think?

I think that if a horn sounds exactly like another except for its resonance and greater tonal depth, that the two do not sound very alike.

I suppose if one is uneducated about music, that all saxophones could sound alike.

[Tears June]

Dr. G

Just one more question. I aware Ref 36 has a larger bow compare to Ref 54, Series III & II. I suppose larger bow has better sound on teh low note (more rich & full). Unfortunately, no chance to see. Is it true? Is it significant in size compare with other Selmer horn?

:cry:

[scale_master]

Dr G, well said: GO FOR THE TONE :D
If the sound of a horn moves you, and makes you want to play more and more, and explore new music, and makes you confident enough to play in front of an audience, in the studio, etc. then this is it.

Words and analyses only describe very poorly what we hear and feel when playing.

B.

[Dr G]

Just one more question. I aware Ref 36 has a larger bow compare to Ref 54, Series III & II. I suppose larger bow has better sound on teh low note (more rich & full). Unfortunately, no chance to see. Is it true? Is it significant in size compare with other Selmer horn?

You might be able to measure it but I doubt that you would notice it if you were not looking for it. It's funny that you ask, for all the people that have seen this horn - and many of those are very astute, experienced tenor players - no one has ever mentioned that the bow looks large. I think it's a pretty subtle change in dimension.

[Lotus54]

I have a Ref36, and definately can feel the difference in the lower stock diameter- or at least I could when I got the horn.
I don't notice it anymore.

I think it sounds wonderful, big fat down low, and will altissimo great.

How did you like the comparision I did? I see a link was put up.

Mark

[Randall]

I HAVE compared the 36 and a BA and an SBA side by side....all 3 horns perfectly set up. All 3 horns in Laq. I also tried these horns against my own 54.
Simply said, the 36 is in NO way close to the SBA nor the BA I played. As with all 36's I have played to date, the sound is somewhat stuffy for me, whereas the BA and the SBA were superlative, rich sounding and free blowing. I believer the BA and SBA were superior to my 54 too....but not by much.
Dave said it well, this comparison goes on and on with no real end.....but this is my 2 cents.
I use a Runyon Quantum Spoiler in plastic with 2 1/2 Alexanders

[blow]

Which is it? All Selmers or so different as to be more like K-horn vs. SBA?

Dr. G, I don't get yur syntax here, sorry.
I agree that there is a Selmer typical sound, Keilwerths also have a typical sound. However, the variety of sounds you get from different Selmer models is huge, even different horns form the same model. Guess this is what I wanted to express with my comparison.

To me, there is one distinct sound feature that I cannot get from any modern horn: the sound color changes considerably with airstream/volume/embouchure modifications. This is most noticeable on the Tenors (I am not an Alto player as main instrument...)
I have to admit, though, that I haven't checked out the bronze Yanis yet.

P.S.:
Oh, and rg. cars and girls: I never had an expensive car, but always dated great girls....

Others, like me, care, because I'm not only a saxophonist, I'm an egonomist. And I can tell you that if you have small hands (don't be ashamed, it means nothing, really!), you'll like the reference models better. Larger hands will like the III model better. In general. I wear a small golf glove, but like the III better because of the hand position with the III, but like the larget bell and bow of the ref. So I'm screwed for now ;).

[Dr G]

Others, like me, care, because I'm not only a saxophonist, I'm an egonomist. And I can tell you that if you have small hands (don't be ashamed, it means nothing, really!), you'll like the reference models better. Larger hands will like the III model better. In general. I wear a small golf glove, but like the III better because of the hand position with the III, but like the larget bell and bow of the ref. So I'm screwed for now ;).

I am pretty sensitive to ergo's as well - that's one other reason that I left the III and went to the Ref horn. After many years on a BA, I was more familiar with playing in a relaxed position that worked well with the lower palm keys of the BA and the Ref horns. The position of the palm keys on the III forced my hands, wrists, and elbows to an unnatural position and led to the onset of a repetitive stress injury in my left hand. I've been playing the Ref 36 for the last several years now with no further indication or recurrance of the injury.

My hands, for the sake of comparison, are LARGE - I wear XXL gloves and can easily palm a basketball. The Ref's are not just for people with small hands - any more than saxophones of the first 60+ years of manufacture were only for people with small hands. Palm risers are a fairly recent "innovation" (fad).

[max]

Palm risers are a fairly recent "innovation" (fad).

I think manufactured risers are fairly recent, but I was putting chunks of rubber tubing wrapped in masking tape on my palm keys for years before there were commercial products.

I learned it from my college sax prof; I'm sure he was doing it for years before that...

[BobD]

Dr. G,

You seem to really like your Ref36. Did you have anything done to it when you bought it to get it to play the way you wanted or did it pretty much play right out of the box? I played a few that were pretty good but found the response to be somewhat lacking. It would not jump from say, middle E to C(with octave key) and the action was fairly heavy. I only played it for a few minutes and I'm thinking maybe more time with it would show it's true colors. Also, have you had any troubles with it? Gordon(NZ) seems to find many problems with the new Selmers and I was wondering if you've incurred any of them(ie acid bleed, rusty springs)? I'm still thinking maybe of trading my VI for one. Can you compare the VI to the Ref36? Sorry so many questions(I would have emailed but couldn't find your address anywhere on the forum) but you seem to be the one on this forum that has had any long term experience with a 36. Thanks for any input you can give me.

[Dr G]

You seem to really like your Ref36. Did you have anything done to it when you bought it to get it to play the way you wanted or did it pretty much play right out of the box? I played a few that were pretty good but found the response to be somewhat lacking. It would not jump from say, middle E to C(with octave key) and the action was fairly heavy. I only played it for a few minutes and I'm thinking maybe more time with it would show it's true colors. Also, have you had any troubles with it? Gordon(NZ) seems to find many problems with the new Selmers and I was wondering if you've incurred any of them(ie acid bleed, rusty springs)? I'm still thinking maybe of trading my VI for one. Can you compare the VI to the Ref36? Sorry so many questions(I would have emailed but couldn't find your address anywhere on the forum) but you seem to be the one on this forum that has had any long term experience with a 36. Thanks for any input you can give me.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I still think it is a great horn. I got mine from Brasswind and Woodwind of Melbourne,Australia. I don't know if they do anything more to their horns, pick the best of the litter, or what. Some things I do to all of my new horns - take them apart and lube them well, check them for leaks, and adjust spring tension to taste (medium firm, a little lighter than the standard Selmer settings). I live at high altitude, away from sea air, but when I lube my horn each month or so, I do take care to keep a light coating of oil on any blue steel springs. I take the same care of firearms so its nothing new.

Response-wise, my horn has always been great. All of the talk about resistance, etc. finally compelled me to measure the neck - turns out that mine is on the wide side - 0.510", for what that's worth. I use Runyon pad dope sparingly - best applied to the pads with the keys off the horn, let it soak in, then wipe away the excess before reassembly. I do this about every six months.

No acid bleed on this horn. My Serie III had a beauty mark at the bell-to-bow joint. I happen to think the lacquer on these horns is wonderful.

Comparison to a Mk VI? I think the Mk VI's tend to sound small and thin compared to the Ref 36. My 36 has a very beefy, robust tone when I want it yet fits my classical quartet very well with appropriate selection of mouthpiece and adjustment of attitude. I love it for its character and versatility. You're absolutly correct about the need to spend some time with the horn. I recall that the first six months or so were full of discovery of what the horn could do. Although it's not mouthpiece finicky, finding the optimum mouthpieces can be real rewarding. I have to think that people that consider them colorless just haven't spent the time with them - either that, or my horn is especially exceptional.

You may contact me at GeoKasch at Juno dot com. If you are anywhere near Randy Jones, you might consider a visit. Randy has considerable experience with the Ref horns and deals in a lot of Mk VI's so he may be able to give a good trade if you prefer that to selling outright.

Go for the tone.

[BobD]

Dr. G,

Thanks for the informative post. So, you basically just checked for leaks and adjusted the action on your own and it played fine. So it didn't need a major overhaul and modifications to play well. That's good. I like your idea about the care of the springs too. Makes sense. I may need to give the 36 another try.

[Randall]

Dr. G, For my own little bit of research....what strength and brand of reed are you using? What about the mp brand and facing size?

[Dr G]

Hi Randall,

I just returned from quartet rehearsal with the Ref 36. What a lovely day it is! One of the most musical rehearsals in a while - Bozza's "Andante et Scherzo" is coming along very well as is Schumann's "Scherzo from String Quartet in A minor, Op.41, No.2" Stamitz' "Blaserquartet in Eb", arrranged by our leader, Robert C. Jones, is coming along wonderfully too.

Ah, reeds... I am using Vandoren (blue box) 3 on a Jon Van Wie- modified Morgan 3C (opened to .095"). The other fav' on the Ref 36 is a JVW/Morgan 7L opened to .110" on which I use RJS 3S(U).

All the rest of the horns (sop, alto, alto, bari) in the ensemble are Selmer Mk VI's of various vintages. Why five horns? We play both American- and French-style arrangements.

Cheers!

George

[Randall]

Thanks George! :wink: