Trouble with key noise in mic

[Zach]

I just got an audio technica clip-on cardioid condenser mic, and it's picking up my all my key noise. I couldn't be happier with how it's reproducing my sound, but I was wondering if there was a way to reduce the key noise.

[Merlin]

Make sure your sax is in great shape with no missing felt or cork bumpers for starters.

You might also engage the low cut switch on the board to reduce some of the "thud" you get from closing keys on the horn.

[Frank D]

Also look for another thread in this area where saxboy (I think?) talks about optimizing EQ settings to minimize key noise. And, you can also try putting a little insulation between the mic clip and your horn, like a thin strip of rubber or felt.

[Jazzed]

Merlin is right- make sure yoour sax is in good repair.

Another option is to clip the mic to something other than your sax, but then you loose the clip on mobility.

[saxboy]

I love my A.T. Clip-on. Use it everyday for 12-13 years now.

Can you define key noise? Is it pads (stick or pop), metal (clicks or clanks) or low end thud.

I get the low end thud in big venues more than anywhere.

I just tap the bell, no keys moving, and hear what sounds like a bad bass drum. I turn down the lows and keep tapping until the sound is much less. It does not go 100% away, but the sax is so loud it is not noticed when playing live.

I would have to look up this on a frequency chart, but I think Bari is the only sax that plays notes that would be affected by that frequency range at all. It should not thin your sound if you can't play notes in that range and harmonic frequencies are not created below the fundamental note you play.

Any of the other noises need the "repair guy."

SAXBOY

[Zach]

The sound that is coming out is as if you were just opening and closing the keys. I'm not getting any clanking sounds, but just the popping sounds of the pads coming open and shut. I haven't used this mic live yet, and I bet the sound of the sax would cover most of that up except on the slower ballad type songs. I just wanted to make sure I got rid of as much of that key popping sound as possible.

[Giganova]

hey Zach --

there is nothing you can do about the key noise. Its intrinsic in the clip-on mics coz they pick up the key noise from the clip mounting on the bell. Its OK for live gigs, but not for recordings. I used an SD Systems clip-on mic for a while on my brand new Keilwerth sax (which sounded great!) but decided to get rid of it because the key noise was very annoying. Guess you have to live with it or get a stand for your mic.

[saxboy]

Giganova is right. The key noise is always there when playing with a clip. I don't have a problem with key noise while playing because my sax is so much louder than the key clicks and pops. I have recorded many times for live CDs and live jazz music shows with the clip and the recordings say the same thing I do. "Not a Problem!"

Check out Sound Clips from this live CD. I recorded this CD with my partner Rob Mullins, live in a TV studio in Southern California. This link goes to the listening room at Planet Mullins. http://planetmullins.com/joyful.htm

Do you hear key noise screwing up the sax track?

Do you think the clip sounds bad?

Of course, a big studio and monster mics with total isolation and big fat studio effects ect... is preferred. I love that stuff!

But for a live disc (all live concert, most songs first take), I like the way it all works. I like the way the clip sounds. I don’t hear the key noise.?!

SAXBOY

[saxboy]

Should have listened to the clips first. I am not getting a clean enough sound to hear one way or the other. I am searching for a clean example on the web, but no luck unless your computers just play clips better than mine????
SAXBOY

[Zach]

The clips played on my pc okay, and you sounded great! I haven't used this mic for any performance yet, and just knew that I could hear the key sounds coming through when I played, but I'm sure my horn will cover those sounds up in live performance. Thanks guys!

[sonofhop]

Talk to any engineer long enough and they'll eventually get going about how critical mic placement is for getting a good sound. The same applies to clip on mics (though your options are more limited than stand-mounted mics). Experiment with the mic in many places on the horn, pointed in lots of directions, at different distances, etc.

On my straight soprano I've found that pointing my clip-on mic toward the rods minimizes key clicks--it's the spot on my horn where the mechanism moves the least when I play.

Of course it all depends on the sound you want. Sometimes I practically shove my clip-on up the bell so I get lots of tongue and breath and key slaps. Ugly, but just right for some situations.

[hornstar]

I'll apologize in advance for this long poste. I use AT (wired) and Sennheiser (wireless) clip-ons for straight sax sound, with little if any key/pad noise. however, I've wanted to try going through effects at times. For example, I've always loved the wah-sax solo on Chunga's Revenge, and some of the wah/fuzz sax sounds on side one of Weasels Ripped My Flesh. Years ago I had the neck-installed mic on my alto, which was great for effects like that. Recently, I've wanted to try some harmonizing and wah effects again, but using the mic-d signal from the bell end was too noisy and prone to feedback. I read another thread that talked about the need to put a transformer from unbalanced to balanced before running the signal through the effects unit. Supposedly that would eliminate the problems of using the wah. Yesterday I decided to try it again. Using the Sennheiser, I ran the mic-d signal through a BOSS GT-6 guitar multi-effects pedal. The pedal will do harmonizing, wah, lot's of other things, and has anti-feedback and noise reduction. After applying those options, and some EQ to take off the nasty trebles, I was successful in using the effects. However, key noise was amplified terribly, to the extent that I find it unusable.

[KevyD]

I never had a problem with key noise when I was using a borrowed SD systems mic on my tenor. The capsule was shock mounted on a tripod clip that went over the bell. Very nice design. You'll always get thuds and stuff low down, but that's part of the fun of it. It's hard to back off a clip-on for a low Bb.

Of course, a good repair technician can really silence your key action. My horn was so noisy I could hear it before I picked it up. But after a good repair it's a stealth tenor.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

"However, key noise was amplified terribly, to the extent that I find it unusable."

If you were a guitar player, this would be a good thing!

Any effect that compresses the signal, deliberately or inadvertently, will cause mechanical noise to increase. This is true no matter what type of microphone you use. A noise gate can ease some types of clunking....the stuff that goes on between notes... but equalization is about all that can help while the horn is actually producing the notes. Massive EQ is going to affect the sound, usually in the direction of suck!

[saxboy]

Just a thought but my sax makes key noise when I move the keys with no mic. I don't think it is the clip on that is the problem as much as the sax pops and clicks due to the mechanics of the instrument.
Rolling the low frequencies will cut the thump and working on a more delicate technique is always good for the studio mics that pick up everything.

SAXBOY
www.gregvail.com

[ReedSplitterRev]

If the clip mic is the only one you have and are recording, clip the mic to your music stand and bend it around so it aims at the bell. It defeats the purpose of 'going mobile' but if you're recording and don't move around too much, this may work for you.

I was all concerned about the noise when practicing at home with headphones, but all that disappeared when I was playing live as there is so much more going on around you. This is more relevant when playing rock or r&b and less if playing small group jazz. For the rock/soul stuff I use a clip, and for jazz I use a stationary mic.

[Jazzed]

I've used clip on mics on gigs a lot. Keep in mind that there will be other instruments playing (in most gig situations) and the wash of sound from the other instruments (especially drums/cymbals) will cover up any key noise. In my experience it is not an issue- your mileage may vary.

[shmuelyosef]

I always use clip-on (AT PRO35) when playing R&R gigs. Yes, if you fiddle with your sax when everything is quiet, the key noise comes through, but when the music is going, it's rarely audible. I have taken to using a footswitch to cutoff the mic feed when I am not playing. In smaller venues where a horn can sometimes carry sufficiently on a ballad without a mic, I just leave it off and blow freely. The footswitch gives me a lot of flexibility.

[Honeyboy]

My Yamaha pads pop louder than my Rolled tone hole Conn and even my thicker The Martin pad seats. This is one advantage to rolled tone holes. You really can't hear it when the band is playing, on the Yamaha. I first noticed this type of noise listening to a recording of a classical player clicking away- very annoying and distracting. The alto was the only instrument playing at the time.

[richard]

I FOUND THAT I COULD NOT USE MOST CLIP ON THE BELL MICS ....UNTILL I TRIED K&K SAX MIC...USING THIS MIC I'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH KEY NOISE. THAT GOES FOR BOTH TENOR AND ALTO.

[lensax]

If you put a piece of sound foam between the clip and the bell it solves the problem