How to stop biting?

[Andres]

I admit it. I'm a biter. :oops:

I've been killing my chops lately...I start off playing with a loose embouchure, but I slowly but surely tighten things up. Over the course of a 2 hour performance, I find the corners of my mouth weakening and air escapes.

How can I train myself to stop? It's a lot harder than it seems...

[MitchP]

Check my response under soprano=sore lips

[MS]

Would a brighter mps allow you to relax more?

[MitchP]

No, you need to get your embouchure and air support together.

[sanbornfan]

When I started to regularly practice the altissimo register I noticed tooth pain and a sore lower lip until one day it was too painful to play. That's when I took the drastic step of simply lifting my upper teeth off the mouthpiece thus preventing the possibilty of biting. It took me about two weeks to build up those facial muscles that were resting during biting, but now my sound has become much richer and even the altissimo register responds much better. And so far, I haven't even gone back to placing my upper teeth back on the mouthpiece.

[Charlie A.]

Hi!
I read your post about biting. There can be several reasons that you bite. Among them are mouthpiece with a too-open tip, reed too strong for your tip opening, weak facial muscles, or a combination of all!!
I have written about this in several places on the web in answer to questions about embouchure pressure/mouthpieces/reeds/etc.
The secret is a setup that gives you what you want from your sax but doesn't work you to death. I suggest that you look on my site under an article, "Proper Embouchure Pressure" and then I further suggest that you purchase the booklet offered there written by Santy Runyon many years ago, Suggestions for Woodwind Players". In my article and in Santy's booklet are given procedures that if followed and practiced will help you to establish the correct setup for your body, your mouthpiece, reed, and one that will not work you to death or tire you out and yet give you an even performance throughout the range of you sax/instrument.
Regards,
Charlie A.

[Charlie A.]

forgot to give you my web address; www.gigdust.com

charlie

[Andres]

Thanks for the responses.

Just for everyone's info, I have the same problem no matter what mouthpiece/reed combo I use. Perhaps it's muscle memory from years of being strictly an alto player :?

My current setups:
Reeds: LaVoz Medium Hard or Rico Royal 3.5
MPCs: HR Link 4*, metal NY Link 6*, Runyon SR #5, Jewel Concert.

[FrankB2]

I swithced/added alto sax last September after 30 years of clarinet. I
NEVER bit a clarinet mpc, but immediately became a biter on sax. Dropping my reed strength down to a Vandoren #2 (Meyer 5M mpc), and
faithfully using the exercises in Larry Teal's book cured the biting, but
it took about a month. Tone's better, and my upper two front teeth don't
feel like they're being driving through my skull now<GRIN> AHHHHHH.

Frank

[casalborgone]

I just want to support what Charlie A and others have said here. Several months ago I rethought my embouchure because I noticed I was biting and was finding all sorts of problems such as poor tone quality and (on tenor) D2 seeming particularly stuffy.

So I went from 2.5 or 3 reeds (Fibracells) to 2s. Or medium soft to soft (for the coarser-graded Fibracells). I did this on both tenor and bari. I also pulled out my more-closed mouthpieces (say from a #9 to a #7 piece--I use a couple of different pieces on each sax, so this is just to suggest the range of change in size).

What a difference! My tone quality is greatly improved. I can play louder. No stuffiness. When you are using too stiff a reed and too open a mouthpiece for your particular embouchure, you simply end up handicapping yourself. With too stiff a reed or too open a piece, the tendency is to bite after you have become tired from extensive playing. And your playing suffers.

[colibri]

For some strange reason, I only bite when I use a softer reed and a mouthpiece with small tip opening. :? My current set up is a Jumbo Java A95 with a Rico #4 reed. With this set up I can play from low Bb to altissimo D4 without biting. A while ago I was attempting to use a Selmer Soloist C* with a Vandoren #3.5 reed. I couldn't play any higher than G3 with confidence and I bite once I enter the palm key range. My conclusion is that if you have correct air support and embouchure, a softer set up will wreck your chops.

[rollen]

Andres,

Do the mouthpiece only excerise as described by Paul Coats. You can find his articles via the main SOTW page.

Do Long Tones, Long Tones and more Long Tones.

Also, drop down to softer reeds. If you have problems with the softer reeds, get your horn checked for leaks.

[sessionsax]

Jeff Kirk, my instructor while I was at Belmont Univ in TN recommended an exercise that helped me, I will do my best to describe it. It looks crazy though, but it works to help strengthen the embrocure.

Here it goes

1st do an extreme oooooooooohhhhhhhhh with you mouth (no sound) then immediately follow with a long extreme

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee (no sound)


do this about 50 time in a row for a period of about 6 weeks and it will strengthen your embrochure greatly

It made my lower lip strong enough to keep my lower lip off of my teeth with a strong push with my pointer finger.

It looks ridiculous though

[Gaijin-san]

Does anybody else do this? I regularly play on Vandoren Java 2.5s and 3.0s. I have a stock of Olivieri 4s that I got very cheaply (and I think they're cheap reeds too, rather unfinished).

I have a number of purely technical exercizes that I'm going through, mainly scales, as I never properly learned them. This requires hours and hours of practice on just this over the course of the week. Occaisionally, I'll do my scales exercizes with these 4s to strengthen 1) my emboucher and 2) my lung capacity. Seems to be working great.

Now, I don't throw tone quality out the window, but I'm surely not focusing on tone as I try to hammer this technical ability into my mind and fingers. The increased muscle strength and lung capacity are just nice side effects.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a pro. I am not a semi-pro. I am not a "gigger". I'm a 23 year old guy who hadn't played in 5 or 6 years until recently, my only gigs consisting of about every other sunday morning doing 3 church services. I'm lucky if I have a half hour each day to practice. I often practice only 2 or 3 days a week. I love playing my sax, but I just ain't gonna put in religious practice routines because I'm never going to have a gig anywhere (I don't know of any bands, musicians, groups, ensembles, etc). I'm writing this because I think there is a rift here on SOTW. 1: Utter Beginners 2: Advancing Beginners ----- 9: Semi-pros 10: Pros. There's either nobody in the middle, or you're bashed for not adhering to the routines of a pro. What about the "casual player" who cares greatly about what he or she is doing with a sax (or saxes) but simply does not lead the life of a gigger?

</end rant>

[sessionsax]

Gaijin-san

Getting your skills together is like preparing for a athletic event.

If I knew that I had to run a triathalon to make my living, I would spend more time doing specific trainings tailored to the task.

If I just wanted to improve my health and maybe trim a minute off of my mile run, then I would have a different approach.

Prepare as you see fit -- and keep it fun. Sometimes I feel like I am preparing for a marathon, when a few pushups would do and keep me happier from the experience.

[Gaijin-san]

In general I think the semi-educated players who are striving to improve and learn get flamed (or smoked) all too often around here. I know after I've posted something I've often felt intimidated by responses to my questions or ideas. Seems like unless something is posted in the "For Beginners" thread, you're posting into a shark tank.

I'm utterly amazed at these 13 and 14 year-olds posting on here that own Mark VIs or Yana's and have such and such a mouthpiece, like such and such reeds, and can intelligently discuss many sax-related issues. Until recently, I was only aware of 2% of the "known sax world". There are many of us that are naive, and trying to change that about ourselves. I just urge many of you to lift us up, not push us down...

[Gaijin-san]

Session-sax, good perspective. That's exactly what it is to me, a fun, very enjoyable hobby. It's not a regimen for me, though I take it very seriously. I just feel like "that's not good enough" for most people around here... just my impression anyway.

[sessionsax]

Gaijin-san

Music is meant to be enjoyed. Both making it and listening to it. Always trying to improve is a good thing -- just do what makes you happy.

I quit playing for a couple of years, because I had burned out from 5 to 8 hour practice sessions every night when I was in college.

Also be true to the music you love. Most of the reason for my burnout, was that I was studying under a virtuoso bebop player and I loved commercial style sax playing, but though that I had to be a bebop player as well.

Now my practicing comes and goes in waves. Some weekends I spend the entire weekend shedding -- barely putting the horns down to eat, and for periods of time, I don't practice at all.

I have been playing a while now, and I have found that its a balance. If I am practicing to the point that I don't enjoy playing, or it becomes mechanical and creativity begins to fade -- I lay off.

As for peoples reactions, be a little thicker skinned. Playing music is a very passionate experience for many. Its very similar to religion, and we all know that basically noone can agree with another on that topic.

Continue to ask your questions and gain from whats valuable and toss the rest out. Also, you will begin to be able to read the personalitys of the regulars and in the same way you ignore people in the physical world, you will learn to ignore some and respect others in the cyberworld.

[Gaijin-san]

Daniel-san takes much wise advice from session-sax sensei. :)

The advice is much appreciated.

[FrankB2]

I played sax for the first time today in two weeks. I never sounded
better!!! Think I was having some burn-out myself, but did NOT expect
to sound even half decent after such a lengthy timeout (playing my
classical guitar). My mouth wasn't even tired after a non-stop
hour. Hmmm...maybe I needed a mouth muscle break<G>.

Have Fun, Frank

[singlereed]

Another concept that may help: remember your embouchure should be a circle - the muscles at either side of the mouth should bear in on the sides of the mouthpiece - not be drawn out in a 'smile' (a common fault with clarinettists who take up sax). Using this correct embouchure does allow you to relax the bottom of the mouth a little and reduces the need to bite. It also allows the lower jaw to create vibrato a lot more easily. I think most players will find their lower lip gets at least a bit sore after a really long session, but it shouldn't be unbearable. Of course, if you have rough or uneven lower teeth, that is going to make matters worse, because even without 'biting', your lower lip needs to rest on those teeth and your dentist ought to be able to help you.

[Bill Mecca]

It looks ridiculous though

I do it sometimes while driving. a weird form of road rage :wink: It's one of the exercises outlined in Larry Teal's Art of Saxophone Playing and I think in Leibmans book as well. I alternate it with the isometric exercise of pushing your lower lip against your upper, hold for a count of 10, relax for 5 and then do it again for about 50 reps.. :twisted: .

A lot of times a weakened embouchure after playing a while is a sign that the mpc is too open. You are compensating by biting to, for practical purposes, close the tip opening, or shorten the lay. Often this results in a "pinched" sound and not the full robust tone we all (most of us) seek to produce.

One of the other good pieces of advice I gleaned from Leibman's book was to "think down" when playing the upper range and altissimo. Odd as it sounds, it works.

[werkinsnake]

Back in the day, (ok it was about a year and a half ago), I was a horrible biter. The plastic mouthpiece I was using had teeth marks nearly an 1/8 inch deep. Yeah, I know that's bad. :oops: I discovered that my neckstrap was the culprit. It would not allow me to pull the horn up to where I needed it. This was not a problem until high school where the biting really took its toll on the mouthpiece. I took on a rather large growth spirt, and I suppose I never adjusted my sax accordingly. To correct the problem I bought a neckstrap that could take my sax, an alto, above where I needed it. After a few practices of having the sax too high, to help break me of my bad habit, I lowered the sax into the perfect middle position which was comfortable to me. My tone improved incredibly and the bitemarks disapeared. I still use those clear patches on top of my mouthpieces, but more for a comfort factor as I use metal mthpcs on all of my horns and sometimes the vibration of the lower notes irritates my top teeth. But since I've adjusted my neckstrap, there has not even been one scratch on any of my biteplates, or patches. After discovering this, I have noticed that a low neckstrap is a common problem among many new saxophonists and even some veterans. :shock:

[rollen]

To elaborate on werkinsnake's point. I have heard that the 'springy' straps such as the Neotech can also cause biting. Biting develops (unconsciously) as an attempt to keep the horn stable.

[werkinsnake]

Not just springy neckstraps. Many players (high school level) keep the neckstrap too loose. As a result they are using their embouchure to stabilze the horn. When the embouchure muscles become fatigued, the teeth take over in trying to hold the horn in place. As a result, bite marks form. Tone is also affected (usually a weak and stuffy tone developes). On a side note, I'm currently working on several information booklets that I plan on putting up on a website. This will be a major topic in one of the books, which will have diagrams illustrating why this happens and what it does. I'll keep everyone here posted on when I get the website up.

[Vic Williams]

As a long time teacher I have tried this several times with excellent results. Simply have the student play out of the extreme corner of the mouth. They cannot bite from this position but can quickly hear the full tone that can be obtained without any pressure. Slowly they can move the mouthpiece back toward the center of the mouth without biting but still keeping the full sound that they played in the corner of the mouth.

[werkinsnake]

Or they can keep playing out of the sides of their mouth, go professional, and make a whole bunch of smooth jazz cds. :twisted: