Picking up a brass instrument

[onesaxgirl5]

Being a sax player, all I've ever played were woodwind instruments...alto, bari, bass clarinet etc etc. Well I just found out that I would have an open period for my senior schedule so I decided, "Hey! I'll take another band and pick up a new instrument!" With that being said, does anyone have any advice for a saxophoner trying to play trumpet?

[DanY]

Get a trumpet teacher first!
I spent a year trying to teach myself cornet with no success. The trumpet embouchure is totally different from any woodwind embouchure. When you play trumpet your lips are the reed vibrating against the mouthpiece.

-Daniel

[gary]

onesaxgirl5 - have you read "how different is it going from sax to trumpet ?" in this (Doubling) category? Scroll down a bit and you'll find it. It might answer some of your questions.

[onesaxgirl5]

Ah, thanks Gary, didn't even see that. Also, are there any tips on how to practice to make my "chops" stronger? Right now I'm just trying to figure out which pitches correspond with which keys (it's so difficult!) but once I get that figured out, any advice?

[onesaxgirl5]

Ah, thanks Gary, didn't even see that. Also, are there any tips on how to practice to make my "chops" stronger? Right now I'm just trying to figure out which pitches correspond with which keys (it's so difficult!) but once I get that figured out, any advice?

[sax_appeal]

Long tones are pretty much the only thing that you can do to make your chops stronger. As a beginner to trumpet, these are essential and should not have been overlooked in the first place.

[gary]

...are there any tips on how to practice to make my "chops" stronger?
Long tones are essential. But you must balance that out with flexibility exercises or your embouchure may get stiff. The thing about the trumpet is that it's very physical and, unlike having a reed to produce sound all night long, the trumpet requires musscles; and the lips are just flesh stuck between a piece of metal and bone (mouthpiece and teeth).

I highly recommend "Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing" by Claude Gordon (Carl Fisher Publ.), "Twenty-seven Groups of Exercises for Cornet and Trumpet" by Earl Irons (Southern Music Co.), and "The Balanced Embouchure" by Jeff Smiley (www.trumpetteacher.net)...and a qualified private teacher. Trumpet is one of those instruments that if you have learned something wrong, you may not just thave to correct in the future, but actually stop playing and go back to the basics.

[SaxPlayer1004]

i tried french horn for my band (got bored playing 2.5 level music in concert band) and the embouchure literally scrwed with my sax embouchure, so did trumpet, i just grabbed a tuba for my brass instrument. not bad for marching, gives u the versatility to do drum corp, its the same parts as bari sax's for most beginning music, (basicaly a bari part without as much punch) and its embouchure is so loose that it cant really mess up your sax embouchure. just coming from a low reed guy, so i favor the low stuff (bassoon bass clarinet tenor/bari sax etc)

[gary]

SaxPlayer1004, I ca see how playing sax for a while and then switching to trumpet can be problematic, but not the opposite. How did playing horn mess with your sax embouchure?

[lowguy]

It's quite difficult, when I play high brasses my lips are fast very tired, especially with trumpet ! it's IMPOSSIBLE to play flute after, bad consequences on clarinet and saxes too........ It's easier with a flugelhorn, but I suggest you to try a low brass before : euphonium or valve-trb maybe.
Scott Robinson wrote me two weeks ago he has too problems switching to cornet, that's why he plays only one or two songs with during a concert.

[JimMetcalf]

As a long time sax/trumpet (50+ years now) easiest way to good Chops is those whole tones! Alternate brass/reed each day and spend 20 min doing the long tones against the patio glass door-start pppp--build to FFF and than back to ppp. Listen for ALL the overtones and it is not as boring. Keep a wooden pencil in you car and while driving-put erasure against front teeth-grip with lips-use LOTS of side pressure-keep pencil extended for duration of song on radio--rest one and do again-and again-and again -this is painful after the first 5-6 songs! This will help high note endurance. Its all in the controlling of the air stream!

[Bootman]

Before taking up Brass if you are a woodwind major, take note of the fact that the two embouchures can mess each other up. It was told to me years ago, don't take up Brass until you're in your early mid twenty's. It is at this age that you find that it is easier to disimilate the two embouchures.
This was told to me matter of factly by soem very fine old doublers, concentrate on one first until you have hit your early to mid twenty's because it is at this age that your woodwind emboubhures are set (if playign from an early age).

I double Trombone (valve or slide) fairly easily but you need to keep it up every day, practise long low tones (pedals is ideal). I can swap from sax to bone or to clarinet or even flute without any great hassle but it is a practising and time spent doign it issue. Trumpet bothers me, although Flugel is much easier and more pleasant on the my ear.

Have fun with the doubling but remember to wait for a while and concentrate on the elementary warm ups for both horns.

[triplebsaxman]

i disagree with most of these people. I play the four main saxes and i play trumpet. They are very similiar. For one when you play your sax from you mouth to your chin should be flat just like on a trumpet. The only difference i find is that when you play the mouthpiece doesn't go inbetween your lips it goes on them. I find Trumpet playing very easy. Also i found in a study with a few of my friends and teachers people who play sax then switch to trumpet have easier hitting high notes like E above the staff and higher. I can hit a double high G. I hope this will help.

[Biff]

Out of personal preference, for brass instruments I play Tuba and Trombone/baritone. I find these to be a lot less strain on any ombrouchurei happen to have ( i play SATB), because, especially trombone and baritone, you just buzz your lips normally, without any change to your mouth and you get concert Bb., which is awesome.

If you want to play trumpet, it's not a real problem. Practice is the one thing that will get you better, in my opinion.

And as for learning what positions are what, just remember that there are patterns, look for the patterns... </hypnotizing voice>

Best of luck to you


Biff

[Kareeser]

I'd like to add my comment in...

I recently started my senior year, and I asked my teacher if I could double on French Horn. He was thrilled (since we have NONE!).

Anyway, after a week or so, I can say th`t my saxophone embouchure improved by playing the French Horn.

Truthfully, I really haven't played enough to notice that big of a difference, but I feel more enthused when practicing on both, ;)

However... I can't play anything higher than a D because I automatically tighten my throat like a vice, and my airstream drops to a minimal... still trying to stop doing that...

That particular attribute (throat voicing, + for sax, - for F Horn) is what I can see as similar between the two instruments...

[Martin Williams]

One essential thing to being able to play brass well is lip slurs! You should practice those right along with your longtones so that you can develop your embrochure. Ive played trumpet and do quite weel with it in addition to my sax. I hope this helps

Martin

[Tom Goodrick]

This seems to be an ancient thread. But maybe it will still help to put in my own two cents worth. I played trumpet and trombone professionally and then picked up the sax near the end of my professional career (in 1979). My last gig was a New Year's Eve job as the only lead instrument in front of a keyboard, string bass and drums. I used my trumpet, trombone, flugel horn, tenor sax and borrowed my son's alto sax. It workde out very well. I could not have done it without the saxes. They took the load off my lip. I was able to play all horns all four hours though the bulk of the time went to the two saxes. The only tough part was transposing piano music to Alto. I worked for several weeks to be able to do that.

I think trying other instruments is a very good idea. Doubling between sax and brass can work for many people. But as to which brass instrument you choose depends on both your physical makeup and your interest. If you have oftne envied the sound produced by good players on a brass instrument, or the way that instrument is used in the bands you want to play in, then rent an instrument and try it. You will probably need some pointers from a friend or relative who has played the instrument. But, I am not a big fan of private lessons. The main way they improve your playing is by forcing you to practice so you don't sound like a dolt at your next lesson. If you are not going to want to practice, don't bother. Do not expect the change to come easy.

But many of the same concepts you learn in playing a saxophone will apply to the other instrument. In all wind instruments, the most important aspect is the wind you supply. It must be plentiful and firm, a firm foundation on which to build your articulation and your amboucher. Many bad habits with all horns come from poor breath supply.

For the past two years I have been playing all the intsruments (I no longer have an alto sax) evry day for a total of an hour or a little more. I have had only a little difficulty with interference of instruments. I had to return a metal pouth piece for the tenor because its smaller size made the reed edges vibrate on my lips in a way that damaged the lips for trombone. The sores were right where the trombone mouthpiece fits. But there is no such problem with a hardrubber mouthpieces including a sightly smaller HR piece I use now (a Berg Larsen).

I suspect it will seem harder to start fresh with a brass instrument just because it is so much more difficult to make the tone in the first place. If you start on a trumpet or trombone, going to a sax will be easy. All you have to do is get a fingering chart and go at it. The idea that there is a unique set of keys to use for any note in the ordinary range will be very novel.

But, what the heck, if you want to try something, try it. Don't wait 50 years regretting it and then try it.

[After_cooldude]

I think you are right when you said it is easy to switch from a brass to an sax. Because i have been playing the Cornet for about 5 years and i still quite enjoy it. I find it quite easy to switch from a sax to a cornet. I have had about 7 lessons of playing the saxophone and i think it has been really easy to learn. I feal that i have already made alot of progress on my sax, but i am still going to carry on with my cornet as well.

All i did when i knew i was going to get a sax was too print out some basic scales. Memorize them and then i suppose i just started from them. If anyone is thinking of switching to the sax if you are a brass player (trumpet or cornet) then i think you should take the chance and do it. Because you will catch on very very quick indeed like i did.

[b]So if you are a brass player i think you should do what i did, And you will be surprised how quickly you catch onto playing the Sax. Enjoy! :D

The sax isn't the best instrument to start off with. But you can always give it a try the first time if you want anyways. I love playing the saxophone. I just can't wait until i can get it out again next. But it takes ages and ages to get it out and put together, then you gotta put the reid in the mouth-piece GOD! :roll: No trust me guys i play the alto. lets say if you like music then you will no doubt about it like the saxophone. You can't not like it.

[b]Try it out guys, go on you know you wanna! GO ON! :twisted: :twisted:

[Tom Goodrick]

The only problem you might have in playing both sax and brasswinds is the notes they forgot to build into the sax! I was thinking of that today as I did improvizations to the same songs on the various instruments. The saxes only go down to B flat. The trumpet and trombone go down to F sharp. I often end a solo with a run down to alow notes and A or G will often fit a song nicely. Playing sax I have to remember not to go so low. I play all the same upper notes as built into the sax (not the altissimo). It's too bad those notes are missing. But I still like the expressiveness of the sax.

Another minor problem is the way music is written for the various horns and the outmoded inappropriate nomenclature. It is about time people started calling a 440 Hz A an 'A' on all instruments, not just on 'C' instruments or bass cleft B flat instruments. I play treble cleft music written for B flat instruments on the sax, trumpet and trombone. It is far better than the normal bass cleft trombone music where 90% of the notes you play are well above the staff. I was brought up to speak of music in 'concert keys' or the notes on a piano. Teaching trumpet players a note is a C and trombone players that the same note is a B flat is ridiculous.

[After_cooldude]

Yeh i sometimes muddle them up with my cornet notes for eg. A G on the cornet is no fingures but middle tightness on you lips but on the sax it is your left hand all 3 down. I sometimes play the wrong one while playing on the sax. But for some reason i don't really have any mistakes on my cornet. No mixing up the notes or anything. I just remember them, its wierd. My saxophone doesn't effect my cornet playing and the fingering.

I make my own music as well, do you play alto or tenor sax? :?:

[After_cooldude]

Hi gary! no i wouldn't of thought that the horn would of effected it either. What do you play? I play the sax,keyboard and the Cornet. It was very easy switching from my Cornet onto my sax. I sussed the sax out really quick.

[Tom Goodrick]

I play just tenor sax now (in addition to the brass). I played alto several years ago, borrowing my son's horn. Then he took it off to college and pawned it for a quarter's fraternity dues. Had I known I would have bought it from him! I am done buying horns until and unless I start working again. Then I'd like to add a sop.

I'd like to add that I disagree that trumpet playing is harder than sax playing. It depends on how you do it and on how much effort you put into it. I can blow on an Otto Link 6 all night without working up a sweat or getting even slightly tired. But for two months now I have been working with a Wilkerson that I opened up to about .095 or a little more to get it to stop squeaking. Now I have one heck of an interesting jazz sound and a wide range of volume. But it comes at a price. I am working on the chops for that piece and am getting there. But I can't play all night like I could on the Otto Link.

I have known many musicians who played their instruments very well. All worked their butts off doing it. Nobody who slides by the easy way plays worth a darn. You get out what you put in.

Incidently, for you younger folks in particular, get in good physical shape and stay that way. Music is just as taxing as any athletic sport when you really try to do it well.

[BobD]

I think even though the trumpet may need more daily practice to maintain your chops, you can do that by just buzzing the mouthpiece. I was first able to play high C after buzzing diring my commute to work for a couple of weeks. You can even buzz along with tunes.

[Tom Goodrick]

Buzzing on the mouthpiece is good to a limited extend for trumpet or trombone. maintianing a lip for jobbing depends on the type and extent of jobbing. I had no trouble in college (no music courses) because I played four-hour jobs every Friday and Saturday. To refurbish my chops all I had to do was play a little on Tuesday and Thursday. Much of that was with mutes in the horns.

I had the hardest time when playing in a concertband and working days. During the winter we had rehearsals once a week and then during the summer we played park concerts once or twice a week. But these were 90 minute rehearsals and two hour concerts. That is not enough to hammer the chops into shape. I was travelling for my job once or twice a month which did not help. my chops were not in very good shape during that period. But I could have played sax quite easily with no practice during the week. I finally figured that out after several years.

[Tom Goodrick]

I need to amend and expand my remarks above a little bit. I am now playing a much more open mouthpiece on tenor sax than I was years ago. I find this takes just as frequent practicing to keep my chops in shape as the trumpet does. I try to get in an hour each day and notice the difference when I don't.

The trumpet is more demanding than the sax in two ways. First, its sound stands out in any band so when you screw up, you will be heard by most people in the audience. You have to develop a tough personality to handle this and a good work ethic to keep the screwups to a minimum though we all have our bad days.

Second, the way the trumpet is played makes it difficult to do many things that are easy on the sax. many times, while practicing, I will mess up on the trumpet or trombone by hitting a wrong note. Then I pick up the sax and do it all with no flaws. The reason is that, on these brass instruments, the difference between playing any of several high notes is just a matter of slight changes in lip tension. Take for example the high concert A above middle B flat. With just a slight bit less tension you are playing a E natural or a G. Add more breath support and tension and you are playing a B natural or a C sharp. All this with the second valve down and a lot of breath pressure. So if you are sitting in the first chair for trumpet and a part comes up where, after minutes of silence, you must come in with a firm high A, you just might get a little nervous. While it is easy to get this note in a relative sense by running up to it (many of us cheat and do that when we are not supposed to), you should just play that note and go from there. Hitting G first does not count as "good."