Anybody start late and get really good--I mean pro good? [Archive]

kcp

04-19-2004, 01:31 PM

I can’t say that I’m a late starter but I am somewhat a semi-pro player. I never studied music academically. I’m self-taught, yet I play good enough to perform gigs and be accepted by the real pros that I play with occasionally.

IMO People who study music academically stand better chances of becoming accomplished professional musicians. Right from the start they are in contact and get to study with proficient teachers and excellent players. Their entourage is very competitive, which does that they have no choice but to study and practice harder in order to stay on top of their class. Anybody who gets to practice 8 hours a day and more each day for 5 years or more does become real good.

But there is a downside to this; Not anybody is made to invest and dedicate themselves so much. Some like myself choose to have a life first. It’s also a price to pay. I will never be a real pro, I know it. There were times where I found this to be frustrating, but now I’ve overcome that. I’ve assumed my choice now and learned to accept that I never will be a real pro. In the long run, I think it doesn’t really matter since I get to play music anyway and I’m loving it. I’ve got passions for other art forms and get to be quite successful at them too. I can’t complain, not everyone get to do everything they want to.

BruceW

04-20-2004, 08:46 PM

I'm a late starter and I'm certainly no pro player. I think the biggest impediment to becoming pro level when starting as an adult is like Kim said, just the opportunity to practise a lot. A high school young adult doesn't have to worry about all the mundain things like a job, running a household, and all the other stuff we adults need to do. If we could practice all day long, it would make a great difference.

I once mentioned to my teacher Bill Street that an adult student shouldn't expect to be a pro level player; and expect to play pieces like Concertino de Camera. He completely disagreed. He felt there was no reason why an adult student could not be every bit as accomplished as a pro level player.

So, if you start as an adult (say 30's) that could give you twenty or more years to get ready for your next carreer as a pro player in your later life.

See you there!

Jon B. Bop

04-21-2004, 08:57 PM

I think that at any age it is still a function of time at task. It simply takes the hours of work to gain proficiency.

One advantage young people have is the ability to play with other musicians. Kids just have the free time, and are around each other enough to organize playing situations. This is particularly true if you go to a music school, where ensemble playing is part of the ciricullum (sp?). I have found it difficult to meet like minded people to play with.

In my opinion any advantage young people have in terms of memory retention and physical dexterity are mitigated by an older persons ability to focus, and understand the learning process.

I tell people that my goal is to live long enough to become an accomplished player!

Tom Goodrick

04-24-2004, 12:26 AM

From the tone of the question starting this thread, I gather someone is looking for an excuse to hang it up: "I'm too old for this stuff!" If that makes you happy, stop the music. I personally have had an on and off relation with music from age 4 to the present (61). Both my parents were professional musicians so I grew up with it and was expected to sing and play piano like my mother and trombone like my father. I did but actually started in drums in the school band because they were short drummers. (At 8 I was the youngest and a very short drummer in the schook band.) When I tagged along with my dad to his concerts, the old pros would all tell me to get a good education so I could have a real job. I did but used the trombone and trumpet to make enough money to finish engineering school. In my 30's I bought a tenor sax and taught my self to play with the help of music books and favorite sax recordings, mostly big bands. After playing professionally for 20 years I retired from the music business because of travel demands of my engineering job and demands of my family for my time. I also got just plain sick of working weekend gigs.

I kept my head busy with music by playing an organ at home and then the various synthesizers that came along, finally getting a pro-level synth. After retiring from engineering I realized I had nothing but time on my hands so I started practicing the horns again. To get the ball rolling, I practiced between 3 and 5 hours every day. I built up my lips for trumpet, trombone and flugel horn and worked even harder on the sax. I had to buy a new one because the old one disintegrated in its case.

Today I am playing these horns better than I ever did as a kid. I have slacked off a little so it might be hard for me to do a four-hour gig. But I could do one hour sounding very good. Now the question is should I bother getting back into the business? For the present, the answer is no.

I did the community band thing for ten years and have no interest in repeating that. It is a good way to meet local musicians but the variation in quality can drive you nuts. Besides, I hate Sousa marches!

I recently helped get my granddaughter started in music by getting her a good keyboard with several levels of teaching capability. I also helped a friend in his 40's get started in music with the same keyboard.

I would offer this advice to anyone who is 'old' and wants to learn music. If you are under 50, go ahead and learn an instrument. If you really want to learn, you will do well enough to have several good years with a sense of accomplishment. I would advise all beginners to start with a keyboard so that you concentrate on learning to read and experiencing chords and the overall aspects of creating music. under 50 you can leanr an instrument. The saxophone is easier than some. But it is very true that a sax is very easy to play badly. That is, you sound halfway decent some of the time if nobody listens carefully to your intonation. The older you get, the harder it is to hear the fine level of intonation needed to play as a pro. I work with a meter and find it disconcerting to get most of the notes close but still wander a bit on the high side once in a while.

If you think you are getting pretty good, join a community band. You won't be the worst player!

Anyone can have fun with one of the keyboards available today. You don't even need much finger dexterity. Not anyone can develop into a sax player or trumpet player starting 'late.' But everyone should try if they really want to. I play in an upstairs bedroom during the mhddle of the day when my neighbors are all gone at work. Once in a while I'll get a bad look from a bird or squirrel but I don't bother anyone else. My wife is hard of hearing! My dog hides in the basement.

larry

04-24-2004, 05:02 PM

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "really good" and "pro good". By "pro" do you mean "work paying gigs" or "have your saxophone be your primary source of income" or "be considered among the best players in your area - called in for sub work and recording sessions on a regular basis"?

I have no doubt that you can start (or re-start in my case) as late as you want and work paying gigs within a year or two. As someone else pointed out here though, you will always have a lifetime of study and accomplishment ahead of you though, no matter how good you are now or how old you were when you started.

There's a talent aspect, an experience aspect, and a work ethic aspect. My guess is you only need 2 of the 3 to get started, but having all 3 really makes you a "pro".

bmsj

04-24-2004, 07:41 PM

Interestingly, no-one is saying yes to Konrad's question.

I started at the age of 44 without having played even the triangle at school. I now have SATB saxes, but concentrate mostly on tenor and bari. Will I ever make it? Emphatically, and sadly, no. My knowledge of scales is weak, and my ear is terrible.

Looking at people who can't spell or do their mulitiplication tables, I see similarities in the process of learning. Such things need to be natural and instinctive and no amount of effort will overcome such short-comings in later life.

I can play a bit though and, yes, there are some worse players in a variety of (community) bands I play in. Also I am accepted in some other bands by some pretty fair pros.

The great thing is that I can give pleasure to people when I play in spite of the deficiencies in my playing. Fourteen years on (at the 58), I'll settle for that.

Hurling Frootmig

04-24-2004, 08:15 PM

I think anyone can do it if they decide to put in the time and effort. One of the challenges for all players who are a little bit older is that they probably have full time jobs and families to worry about. Getting in the number of hours needed to become a great player is going to take more years than a young person who can shed for six or eight hours a day.

One of my favorite people in the world is Studs Terkel. He's still writing books in his nineties but he didn't write his first oral history until he was in his 50's. His first book might have been written in his 30's or 40's. It was "Giants of Jazz". Pick up a copy as it's a quick and fun read.

Dog Pants

04-25-2004, 01:36 AM

Good on you for posting such a question Konrad mate. I reckon many more have wondered and been a little too shy to ask, but it is something that goes through the mind of any "older player." You have received a lot of great responses already, and all I really want to do is add a little encouragement. If my own experiences help you and any other older players I'll be happy. I agree that it depends upon what you mean by "pro good." To my way of thinking, a pro is someone clever enough to not have to rely on gigs to make their living. My friend and teacher BOOTMAN, is, by common concensus, one of the top players in my home city, of Sydney AUstralia. He has toured with the big names, recorded with big names etc, etc, and yet, still, there are times when gigs are few on the ground. This is where good enough, to me, means: 1) Being able to double on a variety of instruments. 2) Being able to sight read very well and play a number of different "styles" well enough to get studio work. 3) Developing the ability to pass on through teaching all that you have learned, because students are the bread and butter of most "pros." This list goes on, but I reckon you get the idea. Being pro aint all groupies and riders. That said, I do believe it is achieveable for the "dedicated" older person to get good enough to gig. Good enough to sit in, "and be welcomed rather than grudgingly tolerated" by the local jazz guys/girls. There are no secrets and no shortcuts however. In my own case, I've been playing seriously now for only two years. I work 12 hours a day, five and often six days a week. I have managed to practice 3 hours per day and more on w/e for this this time and have missed 10 days in two years. I spend my travel time to and from work, listening to music and doing my theory/memorisation stuff. Like Kim said, you have to be dedicated to a certain level. The results, after two years are that Bootman tells me I've outgrown the YTS 62 (great! but now I have to shell out the clams for a better horn) I'm about to start my journey on the local jam session scene and I know I won't be the lamest horn player there. I have already been asked to join several blues/r&b bands (not big name outfits just the regular w/e gigs type that you'd hear in any bar). Am I ready to throw in my 72 hours a week of getting my head caved in working nights as a security guard? Nope! not for a long time yet. My sight reading is nowhere near good enough for a start. :roll: I will keep at it and enjoy this next phase of my journey as much as I enjoyed getting my first clean note out of the horn. I guess if there is any "secret," it's exactly that. Enjoy the process and let the destination take care of itself. Get a good teacher and learn to love the joys/frustrations of practicing. You can get good enough to jump up on stage and have a great time and perhaps more importantly, give the audience a great time. How long will that take? Who knows? In the meantime, remember, you have many well wishers right here on the forum who are only too happy to help ya out where they can, or lend an understanding ear when the inevitable frustrations come along. Enjoy the ride and God Bless
Dog Pants. 37 years old and not getting any younger :lol:

Troy

04-27-2004, 05:46 AM

...Looking at people who can't spell or do their mulitiplication tables, I see similarities in the process of learning. Such things need to be natural and instinctive and no amount of effort will overcome such short-comings in later life...

...The great thing is that I can give pleasure to people when I play in spite of the deficiencies in my playing. Fourteen years on (at the 58), I'll settle for that.

I really disagree with the first paragraph above...and I really agree with the second. People of all ages can learn these things. It just takes a while longer sometimes, when you start later.

You can learn anything you want to, at any point, if you have 1) the will and 2) a good teacher. You may even be able to do without the good teacher, although it will be a lot more work.

I think most of the time when we say "I can't learn that," it's because we don't really want to spend the time or effort...or...no one has ever been able to articulate the concept to us in a way we can understand it.

I don't think it's bad to not want to spend the time or effort. I just think it would be a terrible mistake to limit yourself just because learning a new thing "doesn't come naturally."

HohnerBlower

04-27-2004, 09:30 AM

Back in the late seventies, inspired by Don Maclean, I bought an acoustic guitar(and a teach youself book)....still inspired by Don I bought a 5 string banjo(and a teach yourself book) in the early eighties......inspired by previous generations I started a family in the mid eighties(no book required) and I drifted away from music making. In the late nineties, inspired by Toots Thielemans, I bought a Chromatic Harmonica(yes)......in Feb 2004, inspired by every player I EVER heard, I bought a tenor sax.

I had never seen a sax up close before and I was in awe of it....it sat in the case daring me to pick it up....but by what and where? everything had "bits" sticking out of it and I was scared I would bend something. So I pluck up the courage to put it together....mmmmm, suck that reed! place the strap round my neck, clip the sax on and promptly poke myself in the face several times with the mouthpiece.....that never happened with the harmonica? Where on earth do I put my fingers???? dont worry...dont touch any of them keys, just blow in it...SQEEEUUUAAARRKK!....sh*%@...questioning glance to shocked family members.."did anybody think that sounded like Baker Sreet?"......no reply.

I purchased a good teach yourself book/cd and realised to my horror that I had been cheating with all my previous instruments....this was all written in REAL music. Guitar,banjo and harmonica all had tablature versions of tunes to make it easier...I had never really had to learn music notation before but now there was no getting away from it.

Its slow...I work 12 hour shifts 4 days on and 4 days off...I practice for 1 hour on each of those four days......I`m on lesson 17 of 69 lessons in the book....but I KNOW I`m going to get to lesson 69 one day....and then I`m going to learn "The Look of Love" because I love that tune. Where I go after that I dont know yet....I havent set my goal to be a performing musician...I just want to play sax for my own enjoyment.......and for that, my friend, it is NEVER too late to start!!!!

alsdiego

04-27-2004, 08:20 PM

bmsj,

I must strongly disagree with your self-assessment, even tho I don't know you! Here's why: Learning your scales simply takes dedication... I didn't know a single scale except the chromatic scale until I was 59. It took me a year of practicing 1 to 1.5 hours a day, but now I can instantly play major, minor or dominant scales/arpeggios in any key, and I'm now working away on Jerry Coker's "Patterns for Jazz Book".

As for the ear thing, you can make huge improvements in that area as well, guaranteed. The reason you think you don't have a good ear is because you never made the "ear-horn" connection. There are a large number of suggestions on this forum about how to improve your ear. Here are a few to get you started.

1. Play the first two measures of "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star", starting on C. Then start on C#, D, D#, and so on in half steps all the way up to B and back down.

2. Transcribe (copy solos) by playing along with CDs. Start with something slow, like the Blues tune "After Hours", from the Sonny Stitt Album "Sonny Side Up". Copy EVERY solo, trumpet, saxes, and piano. Find the "good" notes in each chord. Hear the chord changes. Trust me, it gets a lot easier with practice (and with knowing your scales).

3. Learn how to REALLY listen to jazz. What is the horn doing in relation to the chords? What kind of intervals is he playing. What notes of the scale does he emphasize. You have to learn how to listen in a whole new way.

4. Download the free "Jazz Handbook" from Jamey Aebersold Jazz:

http://www.jazzbooks.com

It has an incredible amount of information, including info about ear training.

Bottom line, if you really want it, you can make huge improvements. How huge? When I was a teenager, I had great tone, could sight read at state band level, and had good "teenager" technique. I had absolutely no "ear" at all, and improvisation was limited to simple r&r licks. Now, 40 years later, after a year of practice, I'm playing gigs, other musicians can hear what I'm trying to do, and for the first time in my life, people walk up to me and say, "Wow, you're really talented!" Remember, "talent" is a very elusive concept; I'm not even sure it exists to the extent people think it does. In my view, much more important than some vague concept of "talent" is belief in yourself. While it's true some people (like Stan Getz and Chet Baker) may be born "ear geniuses", you can't discount what practice and desire can do. If you read much about Charlie Parker's early development, you know that in early jam sessions he was literally hooted off the stage because his ear was so undeveloped.

There's a huge popular misconception about musical talent, the idea that "you either have it or you don't".............that someone with a lot of musical talent can just pick up a horn and start blowing, with no practice at all, and if you can't do that you're a talentless bum... that's pure bs. It's hard, hard work, and you need to do the things that will truly expose your talent, because right now you don't have a clue what's there.

Ok, ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Rex

04-27-2004, 11:34 PM

alsdiego -- A-men to ALL of that!

nilsbull

04-28-2004, 06:54 PM

Man, y'all sure do keep track of your playing don'tcha? It's very interesting reading to me, since I started playing again a couple different times over the past 40 years since I last picked up the horn with intention of being entertaining. The nearly penultimate time I decided to get back into playing, it was like starting out all over again . . . from the first breath.

I've trained my ear for language so much that it seemed completely insulting to discover that I couldn't play along with anything that I'd done before. And in the long-back I had quite a repertoire of stuff to play. Coltrane to Desmond & maybe some Cuban changui in there somewhere as well.

Finally I just gave up. No, not that gave up. That gave up I'd done twenty-odd times in the past four decades. This time I just gave up and started with the thought that I once did this & I could, by somebody's deity of choice, do it again.

A couple days ago I found out about a local joint's got jam sessions one night a week. My youngest (who's learning to play bass guitar [and wants to learn "upright" bass {shades of his distant Norwegian violin/socialist ancestor}] ) has expressed an interest too. Maybe he'll get a chance to hear the old man squawk & bleat through a couple bars of the blues.

Presuming I can tune the Vito my eldest son gave me (yeah, that's right "gave" me) to the Hammond B3 that's up on the stage.

Me, I wonder if any of the guys I used to jam with back 1965-1968 are still kickin'. Would be nice to see a couple of the folks from that time.

Meanwhile, I annoy the cats & neighbors by concentrating on one scale a week, arpeggios & all that, for an hour or so every night. I figure if I can understand generative grammar, I might be able to get around to playing "Twinkle-twinkle" in twelve keys.

That is the point of life, ain't it?

Nils

girl

04-29-2004, 12:53 PM

BMSJ,

You should get yourself to your local blues jam session - it is THE best way to learn to play by ear. There is one every Sunday afternoon near you - you should go. Its made a huge difference to my playing. I've joined 2 bands and have even been paid to do gigs on the strength of it. Now I just need to improve my reading....

CGG

alto_ego

04-29-2004, 02:34 PM

I read the main question with much interest because it is one I ask myself often enough and I wonder if I am suffering from delusions when I envisage myself on stage before thousands of screaming fans!!!! I tell you what though: it is encouraging and motivating to me when the learning process becomes frustrating although I accept that I may not become that good ultimately. This does not prevent me from persevering even though I know that I have a long, long way to go. I have been learning for 14 months - I am 37. I'm looking forward to the day when I can sound the same every day (consistently) and when my lower lip stops feeling like its had a collagen shot - does that happen?! lol

The replies to this post have been very encouraging and I want to tell HohnerBlower to start playing "The Look of Love" now although its going to sound awful at first. I know, I did it after only 2 months of playing myself and it was my very first song. But now a year later, my fans (poor kids) tell me it sounds good - hell it ought to since I've killed them enough with it!!! At the time I got a midi file and the key was D for alto - I hadnt even started on that scale yet, so thats what I did first. It was wonderful for me as much as it was torturous to others because it is a song I love, so it should spur you on to practice even more. Go for it!

Rex

04-29-2004, 06:03 PM

Alto_Ego:

Nice encouraging words. I am a little concerned about your lower lip though, it really shouldn't be hurting so much after a practice session (or are you saying it's numb, or it's swollen?). The muscles in your face should be tired, instead. Of course those with the greatest endurance might not have enough hours in the day to practice so much as to notice that (I wish I were blessed with either the hours or the endurance!). Have you found any good advice on embouchure? You should not have to suffer any lower lip problems.

Sigmund451

04-29-2004, 07:37 PM

Late is a subjective term. However, after 2 college degrees, a couple of career paths, a family and starting near 40 I have to ask "Does it really matter". I want to eventually gig. I belive its part of the musical experience. However, Im not sure that the catagories of pro, semi-pro, or amateur has any real bearing on the of making music. It seems to me as much a distraction as GAS. Self improvment and pushing creative limits is great but what is the rest all about ?

Having had some degree of comercial success in the visual arts I have to say its not all its cracked up to be. It didnt lend additional meaning to the creative process, if anything it created pressure towards generating a product rather than an experience.

I personally think that there are time constraints and barriers for late starters. I also belive that they can be overcome, but I wonder about the verasity of the question in general. Dont forget the journey.

alto_ego

04-30-2004, 10:16 AM

Rex I am glad that you commented because the lower lip thing has been bothering me for a while too. I think that by now I am confused as to what is up with it because it is possible that my pain threshold has increased over time??!! lol Okay.

Most days it is usually swollen, feels thick in the middle, very tender inside. I put this down to a few things:
mouthpiece kept slightly skew due to uneven upper tooth, doing more sitting than standing cos my sax is very heavy (1952/3 Conn 6M). Reeds 2.5 Vandoren Jazz, V16, Java or normal ones with Rovner ligature. Mouthpiece is a Keilworth, looks like a size 7 on the side. Sometimes my reeds dont last 2 weeks so I often think the increased soreness is from breaking in new ones. Now I am rotating 3 instead of playing one flat out as before. I recently was advised to move up to no 3 but I had a very hard time on these and didnt enjoy it at all so after 2 weeks I decided to go back to 2.5 and now I have less discomfort but I sounded awful the first time. Also doing more high register than before. Low register is very good. My teacher said we can start with altissimo soon.

Practising: min 1hr to 2hr at least 3 times a week on weekdays and sometimes every night, time permitting, and on weekends 2 to 3hrs at least, sometimes both days. Maybe I dont take enough breaks except for 3 to 5 minutes now and then? My lower lip cut inside twice in all this time, but I was really pushing it those times and the silver paper thing helped a bit.

Embouchure: my teacher hasnt pointed out any problems. I read every possible thing I could lay my hands on about it and I hope its right because I have been asking folks after how long my embouchure will be "set" but no one has been able to say anything other than its an individual thing and can take years for some. Not many people hear me play, but those who have say I have a nice tone and I was very proud when a pro I met recently told me that when I was just warming up!!

Can only remember "sore face" in the beginning, actually it was sore everything back then!!! Your remark about endurance made me laugh. There are times I feel I can play for days. But yes, time is a horrible constraint and often my overall energy and stress levels leave a lot to be desired.

Sorry this is so long. I would appreciate any feedback.
Best regards

bass

04-30-2004, 11:43 PM

This has been a fascinating discussion because it gets close to the heart of the matter: Why would a middle-aged (or older) person start playing a challenging instrument like the saxophone?

I started 3 years ago at age 49. Sometimes I wonder why I put in so much time and energy when I know my skill level will top at some limit of mediocrity. I guess the answer is that I really enjoy playing the instrument. Despite its many frustrations--strange but true--there's something satisfyingly sensual about tooting on the horn. I'm sure others would secretly agree with me. (Where's Sigmund Freud when we need him?)

Beyond that, I think there are both physical, mental and emotional benefits of playing the sax at our advanced age. First, it develops and maintains a powerful breath. Yoga folks say good health is dependent on good breathing--especially abdominal breathing. So I'm willing to bet that playing a wind instrument can help there. Second, music has to help exercise the mind. Think of all the memorization, intellect and concentration that goes into playing. Also, if you buy the notion of a "left" and "right" brain, it's said that music helps integrate the fuctioning of both sides of the bodymind--producing a more integrated individual. And then there are the emotional benefits. Music allows us to express ourselves and opens us up to new friends and a social network. I personally have made new close friends through music.

Anyway, that's my rationalization for playing. I hope to keep playing into retirement, because god knows, we all need a serious interest when we stop working.

My one big frustration at the juncture is the lack of an ensemble to play in. I've heard it said many times, that one's playing skills accelerate when you play in a band or combo or jam. I'd love to play jazz standards with others of my skill level. But it's hard to find people--I've tried posting signs in music stores, CraigsList ads, Usenet messages, etc. A few nibbles but nothing that's lasted. I have found other adult novice sax players through SOTW--and we've had some great gatherings. But I need to find other instrumentalists.

I don't think I'd care to join a community band (assuming I'd ever be good enough). Jazz is more my passion. The local community colleges do offer jazz improv workshops, and I intend to take one of these if they ever schedule on at night. I'm also going to attend a local jazz camp for adults this July. I'm hoping to make contacts there. So there are opportunities.

Anyway, I wonder what's been the experience of other older students who likewise want to play with others.

Bass

saxophrenic

05-01-2004, 02:19 AM

I think Alsdiego has it right - and good advice too.

There doesn't seem to be any limit to what one can do if inspired.
I remember as a teenager, I played alot, but never really practiced. I didn't know any scales or chords - never took a lesson - never heard of altissimo, etc. Just had a nice tone - could read music fairly well and so I did some gigs.

Now, jeez, it feels like one is so much smarter. There is a lot I don't know, but I have a vague idea what it is I want to and have to learn. This time around, I'm studying theory and some keyboarding. The experience is so rich.

Time spent playing as a teen was fun, but not very productive. Now, I can see improvements and changes fairly rapidly. Everything else seems in decline at my age so growth and improvement in anything is a real hoot.

Got to agree with Sigmund too - its the process as much as anything else. The goal is ineffable - the now is just so GREAT.

The Real Konrad

05-01-2004, 11:44 AM

Hey guys.

First, I would like to say that I posed a simple question. I am a journalist by trade. That's what I do. It had nothing to do with giving up, but I was curious.

Second, great discussion. I still haven't really seen any convincing evidence on this page, but I haven't seen anything to say it's impossible either. I'm only 37, so the phrase "starting late" is subjective. Anyway, I enjoy sax more than any other instrument, so who knows?

K

singlereed

05-01-2004, 01:33 PM

I took it up at 39 and nearly 5 years later am still improving. I have tended towards classical playing and have completed one diploma and am working on the next, this is material equivalent to music undergraduate level. I do not think I will ever be able to compete with the young guns who can play things like Gotkovsky and Yoshimatsu, but I'm getting on top of quite a lot of the classical repertoire old and new. I have been frustrated at how long it has taken to build up playing speed, but it is still coming and I think tone-wise I can give most people a run for their money. I'd like to think I could make some money playing before too long, although doing exactly what, I am not sure. For now, I just take any opportunity I can to play anywhere and to learn from anyone. BTW, I played clarinet from the age of about 11 to 15 and played guitar for about 20 years, so I had some relevant experience of music. However, the sax stuff I have worked on has been far more advanced than anything I did on those other instruments.

paulwl

05-01-2004, 04:26 PM

There might be different answers to this question depending on what world you move in, because "professional" means different things in different worlds.

For sax/jazz/commercial music, the answer would seem to be a qualified yes. For classical/orchestral/show music, I imagine it would be an emphatic no.

Greyduster

05-01-2004, 04:51 PM

A friend of mine said (although I expect he got it from somewhere else) 'middle age is about coming to terms with your own medicrity'.

If late starters tend not to achieve the higher levels of professionalism it may be because people who start late don't have have the need to achieve the very high levels that younger people at the beginning of their careers and lives aspire to.

Perhaps late bloomers are more easily satisfied, have less time. But as has been mentioned there are a great variety of levels of professionalism. If by professional you mean earning all or part of your income from playing then I don't see any reason at all why we shouldn't. You just put in the time and take/make the opportunities.

paulwl

05-01-2004, 05:25 PM

I agree...I tried to expand on that post but the 2nd draft got lost...What I'm pointing at is the classical/conservatory definition of a professional. It's nowhere near as inclusive as the jazz/commercial definition.

I had it told to me once as "someone who could sightread an opera perfectly in performance." To do that you obviously have to have the instrument and your musical mind under 110% control at all times, able to render absolutely anything possible on your instrument with instant and perfect obedience.

A philosophy like that isn't compatible with the "life's too short" outlook of slightly older folks. It takes the malleable, impressionable, basically young player who will follow the game plan and master the instrument - every last damn bit of it - before getting anywhere near the inspiring or beautiful part called the music.

If classical players sometimes seem disdainful of nonclassical players, it's probably because they feel we want to have our cake and eat it too. They're part of a world that is, by definition, elitist: where anything else is simply not as good.

Jon B. Bop

05-01-2004, 07:29 PM

Bass,
I've had the exact same experience. I've been playing 2 and 1/2 years, starting at age 48, and it's been very frustrating finding like minded people to play with.

I travel about an hour and a half into Manhattan once a week to take part in an ensemble class at a local music schools "adult jazz" program. It's been great (just had our first recital, a blast!) but I'd like to find some people closer to home. Working with a teacher in the room has been very helpful though.

Got to just keep searching I guess.

bass

05-01-2004, 10:18 PM

Jon-

You're pretty dedicated to travel that far once a week to attend jazz school. There's a similar school in Berkeley, CA but I can't see me driving there every week to play. I guess it's a question of motivation.

Still, I'm curious. Anyone from the Bay Area have experience with The Jazz School? http://www.jazzschool.com/

Bass

BbTen0r

05-02-2004, 03:50 AM

There is an LA session woodwind player named Phil Ayling with whom my dad has worked for years. I remember hearing that he began playing at 19 or some age. My personal feeling is that it doesn't matter when you start, it matters how hard you work and how much you love music. my 2 cents.

rcwjd

05-02-2004, 11:22 PM

Hello All

For those who would like to test the waters with where they are right now on the musical path, join us over at SOTW post a member clip thread. Several of us have posted a tune or so a week that we pick and then compare our efforts. It's fun, and I think we have consistently improved by getting positive critical feedback from one another. We focus on jazz, but occasionally stray into some other areas. Many of the group regularly gig on weekends - and all of us have played live at some point or another. Also, for the most part, all of us are a bit long in the tooth and also have day jobs, familes, etc. :)

Pheonix

05-05-2004, 04:56 PM

Hi all, I have just started playing at 40, I have no musical experience. I have not started playing with the aim or fantasy of ever becoming to a pro level. I have started, as it is something I have always wanted to do. I dont think you are ever too old to start something if you want it enough. My aim is to be able to hold a reasonable tune. To give myself pleasure and if I happen to give someone else pleasure then all the better. I will practice hard and do my best and just see where it takes me. I am doing this for no one but me.

:lol:

wersax

05-08-2004, 04:18 AM

BruceW

05-10-2004, 02:36 PM

Thanks WERSAX, your comments are right on.

I was one of those 'closet' sax players that played alone in my basement for almost 10 years. Two years ago, I joined a community band and the experience has been great. It really pointed out what some of my weaknesses were when playing in a group. Now I can work on that and become better.

I'm also playing in church whenever I get the chance. Church is a great venue because the audience, by their nature, is quite forgiving. I made a commitment to play "How Great Thou Art" for someone in church and it has inspired me (keep up with these double meanings will you?) to work hard to learn it well.

I second your points, "get out and play, and music must be shared".

MattC

05-10-2004, 07:45 PM

Jon B. Bop,

Were did you find ensemble classes in Manhattan?

MattC

paulwl

05-10-2004, 08:08 PM

I'll apologize in advance for not being a "late bloomer"; I'm a pro sax player (35 years?) and I stumbled upon this facinating thread and was compelled to comment. I must say, the people in this thread sound really committed to music! Way cool! Here's my opinion: first, I find the use of the term, "professional", and it's exclusive association with the classical/conservatory stream of music, as opposed to the jazz/commercial stream a curious one. I would assume the term "professional" would refer to someone who performs in front of audiences routinely, and is paid for it, to be a decent working definition.
So would I. That's the more "inclusive" definition we can enjoy as saxophonists. Maybe the difference is that even some very good classical musicians can't compete on the level required for paying gigs, the standards being that much more exclusive. Thus classsical folks speak of the "serious amateur." That is a class of playing that an adult beginner can work towards with a good chance of success.

I compare being a casual gigger to being a bartender at a popular neighborhood restaurant. It takes a good way with people, an ability to think on your feet and put a smooth production together quickly (in my combo we call it "arrangements while-u-wait"). And if you play it right, you can become quite popular in your immediate circle. This is something that doesn't necessarily require strict training from an early age – talent, personality, energy and imagination can take you places.

Being a wedding band or show player is more like being a cook in that neighborhood place. More is required in the way of teamwork and precision. You have less freedom and more specific requirements: you're really turning out a product. It doesn't have to be world class, necessarily, but it's expected to fit a pattern. A late bloomer might make it here with dedicated study, but the rewards are somewhat less attractive the more mature you are.

Being a classical pro is like being on the kitchen team in a 3-star restaurant. You have to be up to chasing inhuman levels of perfection and precision, and to compete with others who do. You also have to bring a broad knowledge of and sensitivity for interpretation, coupled with a deep reverence for tradition. You need to be the kind of person who is comfortable without room for error, to execute at 100+ percent all the time in order to open the door for sensitivity and interpretive beauty. Here's where the long years of drill and routine are indispensible: you really do have to be a machine, as finely tuned as any Olympic athlete.

You're good enough now, to perform something, somewhere. Don't let the practice room define your playing. Get out and play. The gigs will give your practicing a real sense of urgency, and a practical focus as well........music must be shared!
Thank you for such an open and positive way of looking at things!

Jon B. Bop

05-10-2004, 08:29 PM

Mattc,
The Lucy Moses School at the Kaufman center. www.ekcc.org

Look for the Adult Jazz Program.

alsdiego

05-12-2004, 09:38 PM

Absolutely fascinating thread. Very interesting how one can have very, very different perspectives on music. To me (and this is my opinion only, not fact, so please don't start rioting), having played in classical, "show bands", and more recently "pure" jazz groups, jazz is far and away the most difficult. I may feel that way because I originally came from a classical and show band experience, which to me was relatively easy to advance in. I find jazz to be far, far more challenging, particularly because I never developed my ears when I was young.

That said, it may well be that we can acquire TECHNICAL skill at a faster rate when we're younger. I've heard of very few (i.e., none) classical violin players at the professional symphony orchestra level that started at 40... they all apparently started at the same time they learned to walk!

OTOH, I'm finding it much easier in my dotage to "hear" music, to learn scales/arpeggios and new tunes, and to grasp music theory than when I was 13-17, so jazz improvisation is becoming a practical reality for me for the first time. Interesting.

Maybe the bottom line is this: if you developed technical proficiency through hours and hours of practice when you were young, you can indeed come back 30 or more years later and advance quickly in the jazz arena, again with an awful lot of hard work. Just one person's experience.

Al

dmcneill

05-14-2004, 07:16 PM

I'm 48 and started 9 months ago. I play 1-5 hours a day at least 6 days a week. It has taken over my life but I love it. My teacher says I am the best sudent he has ever had.

He knows that I am working to turn pro eventually and he thinks I will make it in about 3 years at this rate. I have a very carefully thought out practice regime which encompasses many different aspects of playing technique as well as general musicianship. Although my primary interest is jazz, I am taking a classical course of lessons as well.

GordonGekko

05-28-2004, 09:26 PM

This is really a fascinating discussion. I played Alto for almost 10 years, took private lessons for 4 of them and was at the time really developing some fine skills. I enjoyed playing music, but I was a teenager at the time and had other "interests" that often distracted me.

At any rate, I was strongly encouraged at the time to study music in college. While I gave it some thought, I decided to pursue a business education because I was not sure whether or not I had the skills necessary to make a living and really wasn't interested in a teaching career.

Fast forward many years later (I am now 34, married with 3 children, a mortgage and a dog) and I must say that I have really had a yearning to get back into playing. My interests are in jazz, and I have listened to many great sax players over the years and have built up a decent library. I have never lost the connection when it came to listening to music, it was just my playing that was put on the side.

I plan on purchasing a new horn after the summer and plan to get back in the game. Like fine wine, I believe we generally get better over time. I have experienced a lot (as we all have) in life since being a teenager and I believe that those life experiences will enable my playing to be more meaningful and I will convey those feelings even more than I could have as a teenager.

Also, as adults we have the means to afford good instruction and better instruments. I think many teachers would love to have adult students because they really want to be there- no parents forcing the lessons.

Will I ever be a professional, record CDs and become one of the greats? Who knows? But one thing is certain- I will never know what could have been if all I ever do is dream about playing and never actually do it.

Just my thoughts, good luck everyone.

Al Stevens

05-31-2004, 03:46 PM

A great discussion! Pro? I guess that depends on what that means. I started playing tenor last January. I'm a professional jazz pianist, trumpet player, and string bassist, so I have a head start. I'll be 64 this month.

I practice as much as possible, usually at least an hour a day, often more. I practice with rhythm section tracks and lead sheets that I build myself. Just learning tunes.

I need a more disciplined practice regimen, one designed to build technique and sight reading, but every time I start doing that, I get bored and just play some tunes.

I started lessons with a local teacher with whom I've played gigs, and he did a lot to help me find the tone and control I wanted. Or try to find them; I'm still working on it. My next objectives are scales and interval exercises.

I've sat in a couple times at jam sessions where they know me as a player and are tolerant of my new passion and my limitations.

Would I take a paying gig? That depends on the gig. By now, I could play an evening of easy-going dance tunes at the country club and fool the patrons, but I wouldn't take on a fire-breathing jazz gig. *I* wouldn't hire me yet, so I don't expect anyone else to.

Will I ever get as good on sax as I want to be? No. I've been playing my other instruments most of my life, and I'm not as good on them as I want to be. You never get as good as you want to be, and you can always find someone who can blow you off the bandstand.

But learning new things keeps one alive. I never plan to quit learning.

alsdiego

05-31-2004, 08:22 PM

Gordon,

Amazingly, our experiences are very parallel, except that I didn't have your good sense to only wait 15 years or so before coming back! I stopped serious playing at 18, decided not to major in music, went to college, joined the Navy, flew off a carrier, went to law school, had 5 kids, and so on. Listened to jazz continually the whole time, never played in 40 years. Then at age 58, the passion for music bit me in the butt very, very hard. Started practicing 1 1/2 to 2 hours a day, went to the Aebersold summer camp, started sitting in with a local jazz group. Doesn't ever do any good to regret your past decisions, but I will say this: if you have the passion, figure out how to make room in your life for it somehow, it can be done. A wife who understands your passion and need to express it will help immensely. It's sometimes very difficult (in my experience) for a spouse to support a passion without becoming jealous of your new "mistress". If you have that issue, remind your spouse that it could be worse, at least it's not booze, drugs or younger women (at least I assume it isn't :) ) And of course, some balance in your life is always a good thing.

Al

3saxes

06-02-2004, 12:39 AM

Well, I am not really a late bloomer, I started playing over 35 years ago, but it has been an off-again, on-again relationship. I play more now than almost anytime in my life, and I have learned more over the past 5 years than anytime previously. I still have aspirations of retiring in my 50's (sometime in the next 10 years) and getting a gig in a climate that is arthritis friendly that pays the bills and lets me enjoy my silver years, playing saxophone and playing golf....

Swing

06-02-2004, 03:30 PM

I started playing tenor late, at about 30 years old and without any prior education with any instrument. Since then, about ten years have passed. I have not advanced much, primarily due to many consecutive months at a time when I cannot (or do not) practice. However, I have a few observations based upon my own experience as well as that of my 4 1/2 year old son who started playing piano just 7 months ago.

First, I think technical facility with the saxophone and other instruments, including the knowledge of and ability to play any or all scales in all keys, is something that can be learned and developed very late and to an advanced degree. This ability can be applied directly to playing classical and other types of music, including tightly orchestrated jazz to some degree.

Second, I think training and developing ears at an advanced age is much more difficult to do. And my opinion is that, along with technical facility, good ears are essential to being an advanced musician, especially in jazz. The seamless coordination of ears and technical playing is a basic key to advanced playing.

My own ears, like my own playing on tenor, are not well developed; though I have the same time constraints (i.e. excuses) here as I do with practicing/learning and playing. One thing I have done over the past 7 months is to spend a lot of time on the piano with my son. The methodology he is using is basically Suzuki but with some customized changes made by his fabulous piano teacher (who has many years of experience and is a very good musician herself). The methodology includes songs on a cd, as well as singing notes as one plays.

My son's ears are already far more advanced than my own after only 9 months of him starting to play. And 100% of his practice time, including his two lessons per week (one solo lesson at 20-25 minutes, another 'group' lesson with two other kids), is spent with me helping or being present.

Last week I realized how advanced his ears are. I finally decided to start transcribing sax from some cds for my own advancement on tenor. The very beginning of the very first cut was puzzling me (it was pretty fast, though slowing it down might not have helped a lot). After 10 minutes of banging my head against the wall, I set the cd to play only the first 3/4 second or so. After about 10 times through I thought I almost had it. My son walked into the room and I asked him what the notes were. He immediately sang "mi- re- do- mi." I think he was right (although because he has still not yet been introduced to playing flats and sharps I still need to go back and see whether one of the notes is up or down a 1/2 step). He is also able to correctly identify (quite a bit better than I can do) any of the 12 or so short songs he knows how to play on the piano either by listening to any three (sometimes two) consecutive notes from just about any place in these songs or by veiwing hand gestures used to communicate the same notes.

My point is not that my son is a great musician at 4 1/2 years old, but that at least for me (again having started at 30) I know my ears are already far inferior to his very young ears being trained only for a very short time. The importance of 'advanced ears' is essential to hear the excerpts/chords/ideas in the playing of others and then to correctly formulate one's own excerpts/chords/ideas in response. And of course technical facility is further required to immediately (or even better- to simultaneously) broadcast the said response through the instrument.

I expect that developing my own ears will become a little bit easier. However, I really do not think they will ever be nearly as good as my son's, or as good as they could have been had I started perhaps at 8, or maybe even 18, years of age. For me, all this is a bit humbling. But only a bit. Though I may never be able to play or hear or sing at the speed of Trane, or Bird, or James Carter, I can still enjoy playing and hearing and singing a little bit, albeit at the tempo of Ben Webster and without his genius. And maybe in a few years I can find another hopeful player or two to stumble along with me in a private band.

Al Stevens

06-02-2004, 04:55 PM

The very beginning of the very first cut was puzzling me (it was pretty fast, though slowing it down might not have helped a lot). After 10 minutes of banging my head against the wall, I set the cd to play only the first 3/4 second or so.

Here's a program that helps me whenever I want to do that. It's called Transcribe!

http://www.seventhstring.demon.co.uk

Swing

06-02-2004, 06:35 PM

Al Stevens,

Thanks very much !!

I downloaded and installed that software and it will definitely help kickstart me with my eartraining by transcription, as well as help me to keep tabs on my son :? . And I will pay the license fee too, even though I hope that after awhile I will no longer need the software very much.

And thanks yet again !!!

usda

06-25-2004, 09:01 AM

For the sore lip...try what I did...fold a piece of match cover over the bottom teeth..and fold your lip over that...you can actually play that way fairly well and it will extend your playing time.

I am now 60 and started playing the sax again...used to do it in high school and had a little band that did weddings and in summers joined a USO thingy and got to play in Air force officer's clubs...pretty heady stuff for a 16 year old in the late 50's.

Then I joined the army and stuck around and did the war...I never picked up the sax again until now...I think it was a conscious decision...I felt, rightly or wrongly I would lose my soul...if I have one...playing in the modern music scene. Now I realize that their are so many other ways of accomplishing that goal.

I did take up oil painting at 27 and became fairly competent at it...never professional although I sold my work.

So now, I no longer ply my trade as an RN and am waiting for disability which is long time coming...I may get it by the time I am 62...whoop doo.

Which leads me to my 'wishes and by gollies' if I had stuffed my religious stuff and stuck with the program ...I might have made something out of it...I have never doubted that. Now, I practice all sorts of stuff...but really have no memory of the scales etc. I can sight read well and do pretty fair improvision...but memory is not as sharp, more in the moment kind of thing. Obviously I will never make up for the missed years...but I do enjoy the instrument and hope to make it in a jazz/blues band in a year or so.

My big complaint now is the two horns...alto and tenor are far from pro horns and in fact present an impedment to my thinking...the alto is best, being a 60's Bundy with a Mayer #5 custom mouth piece...makes up for something. The tenor my real love...is just too old and a re do job on it will probably not improve it that much. No money to do better...I am real tempted to try a cheap chinese horn...but I realize that might make matters worse.

I will never become a pro...but playing to my maximum capacity would be a sweet thing. My son is a guitarest with real potiental...his musical capacity and my encouraging him awoken my own frustrated desires...

Goethe said that the three legs of the world were, Art, Science and Religion. If you had not art, then you needed both Science and Religion. But if you had Art, you could skip both Science and Religion.

Doctormyeyes

06-26-2004, 02:10 AM

I'm shortly turning 55 and started playing Alto 3 months ago.

I've spent my life surrounded with/obsessed by music, so not sure if the word beginner applies. I did take a year of clarinet in 4th grade, and played in band in 7th grade, but then switched to piano through high school, and guitar after college. I studied some theory, and developed my ear by listening/transcribing on that instrument.

My parents were both professional singers and I've always thought more linearly, rather than vertically, even on the guitar. I've spent my whole life 'scatting' to myself, consciously and unconsciously. After years telling my friends that I wanted to play guitar in the style of Sonny Rollins, it dawned on me that perhaps I should really be playing sax. Which brings me to the present.

A major advantage to learning as an adult, is that you know what it's supposed to sound like. I can sing you a lot of Charlie Parker, just from having listened to him forever. I've heard many great players and know good tone when I hear it, and sometimes I'm able to produce it. When I briefly studied clarinet as a kid, I didn't have a clue. I'm highly enthusiastic, and feel like I'm progressing in leaps and bounds, at a much faster rate than any of my friends' kids. Three months is NOT too soon to begin playing 'Confirmation'.

Will I ever earn my living playing professionally? Probably not. I've already got a profession, and besides, from watching my parents, I've learned that playing weddings is not necessarily artistically satisfying.

Am I going to be damn good? You bet your a**!

But more important, I'm having a ball!

GordonGekko

06-06-2005, 05:53 PM

Hi,

I actually posted on this Forum back in May of 2004. At the time, I was planning to purchase a new saxophone and start playing again after the summer. Well, I followed through with my intentions and purchased a new Yamaha Silver Plated Z alto in November 2004 and began taking lessons with a local jazz player in Chicago.

While my instructor was very talented and capable, his professionalism left a lot to be desired. After 4 months of lessons, we parted ways, but I continued to practice all of the exercises he taught me- long tones, etc.

I have a friend that is very active in Chicago theatre and we began playing together with another friend in a small jazz combo playing originals. To make a long story short, I was offered to play in a Harry Connick Jr. musical being performed with a local theatre group in Chicago for a 6 week run. I thought it would be a great opportunity to quickly improve my sight reading and improvisational skills. The pay is o.k. and it is primarily weekend work that does not interfere with my day job.

The band for the production totals 3 pieces- sax, piano/digital keyboard, and drums. Although the musical itself has received lukewarm reviews, the music itself was well received by critics and audiences alike. Not bad for a guy that just started playing in November 2004.

My point is, I had the desire to start playing again and took the time to focus some efforts to make it happen. The musical runs through July 10 and the band's performances continue to improve.

I would never have thought that I would be playing Semi-pro Chicago theatre within 6 months of picking the saxophone up after a 12 year hiatus, but here I am. If you have the desire to play, get in there and do it- you might be surprised where you'll go.

Regards everyone,

GG

alsdiego

06-08-2005, 02:58 PM

GG,

Go man, go! That's a great story. If you're willing to focus, I think there are very few limits. I've been amazed at the kindness, support, and acceptance I've been shown by musicians who are far, far, more advanced than I. The key seems to me to be one's attitude. Musicians tend to be quite intuitive, and they can really sense if someone really has the passion, or is just a dilletante. If they sense the passion, they will generally bend over backwards with help and support. And the things you can learn are very, very important. My goal is to be able to gig in the local jazz scene, and I sit in with various groups from time to time. That experience taught me my biggest shortcoming, that I need to learn tunes and more tunes. These guys probably have 100 or more tunes that they know the melody and the changes to... no fakebooks allowed!

Best,

Al

GordonGekko

06-09-2005, 09:11 PM

Al,

From reading your previous posts, it appears that you have really pursued playing with a passion by attending clinincs and immersing yourself in the jazz scene. What I believe that people can gain from our experiences is that you should pursue your desire to play.

It's strange, but there was an emptiness for me that disappeared when I started playing again. While there was a 10+ year break when I didn't play, I was surprised to see how quickly many of the skills came back.

You are right on about fellow musicians- if they sense your passion and desire to play, they really will give you every benefit of the doubt and help you get better.

Best of luck to you in your pursuits, Al. I'll sign in from time to time and update how this "late bloomer" is doing.

Regards, GG

Ken

06-09-2005, 10:25 PM

Anybody start late and get really good--I mean pro good?

I just googled, and found a couple that could be categorized as late starters:
Joe Daley (http://www.jazzinchicago.org/Internal/Articles/tabid/43/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/137/JoeDaleyAnAppreciation.aspx)
Bill Perkins (http://www.jazzprofessional.com/interviews/bill_perkins.htm)

Sounds like Joe Daley started in his late teens, and Bill Perkins was doing it from early on as a hobby but didn't start getting serious about it until after university

danielrorke

06-09-2005, 11:14 PM

Noone has mentioned Cannonball yet. He was a a late starter right? A teacher before he really dug in on the sax.

alsdiego

06-10-2005, 03:11 AM

Cannonball is an interesting case. He was indeed a band teacher at a very, very poor high school in Florida. Don't know how old he was when he came to NY and began burning up the scene there, but I think at least in his middle twenties, if not older.

I don't think age is really as much of an issue as the time it takes to really acheive a high level. For most people, several years of practicing at least 4 hours a day or more. There's only 2 groups that have that generally have that kind of time, teenagers/college students, and us! What a great way to deal with the empty nest!

Al

BlueNote

06-22-2005, 12:55 AM

I'm not a late bloomer in the big picture, but here's my story.

I just graduated from high school a few days ago. I started playing music PERIOD in the middle of 8th grade. I started on alto saxophone. Most of the people my age started in 4th grade, some earlier. I listened to my first jazz CDs freshman year of high school, still playing alto sax. I switched to tenor the next year. I was ok then I skyrocketed during that year (got into jazz). Ever since I have been growing tremendously. So much that I have been told to have been better than some of the "top" high school jazz saxophonists around, especially on tenor. Practicing an hour or so a day (sometimes more, sometimes less) on top of listening to a LOT... A LLLOT of jazz music everyday. There hasn't been a day since where I haven't listened to jazz. It's constantly being played in the house on the computer, mp3 player, whateve.r

I have about 260 jazz CDs as of now. I'm listening to jazz radio right now in fact.

I wouldn't have dreamed of being this good (I always want to be better each day) and being so into such an amazing art form a long time ago. I caught up quickly, passed everyone my age at my school and have been developing my own voice and identity that I could sometimes pass as a professional (which I hope to be). I'm actually a backup tenor player for a local 10-piece band. I also know what real jazz should sound like. People my age play a million notes in their solos. It's cool at first then it quickly becomes annoying. There's got to be meat or else it's not interesting to listen to. And honestly, it's not real jazz. Jazz is not about technique (solely), but soul and artistic expression. Playing fast is fine but shouldn't be done all the time. Take Oscar Peterson for example. Not a saxophonist, but he plays fast when it's appropriate. Not just to show off.

Mkay, that's it for now.