PDA

View Full Version : Keilwerth, H-Couf and Amati History



Pete
03-21-2003, 06:20 PM
This is a bit of the Keilwerth history that I've found scattered across a couple of websites. It's incomplete. I'll be publishing the full version on my website in a bit. Please add to it or dispute it if you have further information.

=======

By 1920, Johann Keilwerth, Julius' father, was active already in the building of woodwind instruments in Graslitz, Czechoslovakia.

Johann had three sons Max, Richard and Julius (1894 - 1962).

After his apprenticeship, Julius Keilwerth first worked for the Kohlert company in Graslitz.

Julius and Max established their own workshop -- in their home -- around 1925. They primarily manufactured saxophones for the Adler company.

After end of World War II in 1945, the Keilwerth company was "expropriated" (or "nationalized") and the workshops in Graslitz were taken over by the Czech collective combine, Amati. After this "expropriation", Julius Keilwerth fled to Nauheim, Germany and dared a new start with a large facility in 1947. This company was handed over in 1962 to Julius' son, Josef Keilwerth, and was then sold in 1989 to the French company Buffet (from the group of firms owned by Boosey & Hawkes).

From approximately 1970 on, Keilwerth concentrated exclusively on the building of saxophones.

Before the Second World War drove Julius out of Grasliz, Keilwerth produced saxophones under the four model designations Toneking Special, Toneking, The New King and King. After the move to Nauheim the models produced were the Toneking Special, Student [The New King], and Toneking Exclusive.

The New King, already well-known from Graslitz, was built until 1970.

In 1987, the Peter Ponzol model was introduced. The Toneking gave way to the SX90 and the New King gave way to the EX90 (and at the beginning of the 1990's, the ST90).

Around 1992, the ST90 Series II appeared (the ST90 III and IV are now offered) and the high-quality Peter Ponzol model gave way to the SX90R.

The brother of Julius Keilwerth, Richard Keilwerth, worked from 1945 to 1951 with Amati to integrate the Grasliz-based portion of his father's company.. He has since moved to Germany and manufactures flutes and clarinets in addition to saxophones. The saxophones are offered under the designation 102 to 105.

Max Keilwerth (1898 - 1968) likewise began his career in Graslitz, where he manufactured saxophones in his home for the Adler company, in Markneukirchen, Germany.

Starting in 1923, Max Keilwerth developed the saxophone department for the Graslitz-based company F.X. Hueller. In 1925, this company became independent, but Max still supplied saxophones to his former employers, Adler and Hueller, from 1925 until the early 1930's.

After the Amati expropriation of Keilwerth in 1945, Max Keilwerth worked for Amati for a short time, but left for Trossingen, Germany in 1949 and began building saxophones for the Hohner company.

These horns were manufactured until about 1967 under the model designation "Hohner President".

(From http://www.klaus-a-schneider.de/facharbeit/seiten/deutschland.htm. Translated by www.altavista.com. Transliterated by saxpics.)

Pete
03-21-2003, 06:29 PM
The Czech firm collective combine Amati was created in 1946 after the "expropriation" of Keilwerth's workshops in to Graslitz (or, in Czech, Kraslice).

Amati's workers were recruited predominantly from former resident instrument farmer companies, such as F.X. Hueller, Kohlert and Keilwerth.

Amati saxophones built after the war and into the 50's retained the name Toneking, which by Julius Keilwerth had originally used. After the 1950's, the model names became Classic and Classic Super.

Since the beginning of the 90's, Amati used model names like "23" and "62", similar to those used by Yamaha.

(From http://www.klaus-a-schneider.de/facharbeit/seiten/deutschland.htm. Translated by altavista.com. Transliterated by saxpics)

Pete
03-21-2003, 06:39 PM
Herbert Couf was the vice-president of the W. T. Armstrong company for many years. From approximately 1965 to beginning of the 80's, Mr. Couf stencilled three models from Keilwerth under the model name "H-Couf": the "Superba I", "Superba II" and "Royalist". These instruments were built in Germany and corresponded (to a large extent) to the Toneking Special (Superba I) and Toneking (Superba II) -- both were pro models and featured a high F# key. The Royalist was the intermediate model, without high F# key, and roughly corresponded to the Keilwerth New King model. Besides these horns, there were other saxophones produced under the label name "Armstrong", for which Keilwerth supplied the body. Later "Armstrong" saxophones were then built by the Armstrong company alone (these were student-model instruments).

Recent instruments, since Armstrong belongs to the UMI company, are built in Nogales, Arizona and are identical to the equivalent Conn models.
(From http://home.t-online.de/home/mike.duchstein/da9707x5.htm. Translated by altavista.com. Transliterated by saxpics.)

============

In the years 1965 - 1986 Julius Keilwerth delivered The New King, Toneking and Toneking Special saxophones with the engraving H. Couf to the USA. Initially they were sent to Herb Couf, later to the company W.T. Armstrong.

The models compare as follows: The New King (student model) = H. Couf Royalist (only alto and tenor), Toneking (professional model) = H. Couf Superba II (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass) and Toneking Special (professional, top model) H. Couf Superba I (only alto and tenor). The Superba I was the top model with rolled toneholes and sophisticated keywork.

All H. Couf saxophones had the additional engraving "Made by Julius Keilwerth in West Germany." All Couf saxophones were identical with the original Julius Keilwerth saxophones. We made about 10,000 saxophones with the H. Couf engraving.

(From the Boosey & Hawkes Keilwerth Discussion Board)

PLEASE NOTE: this information is definitely incomplete. For instance, there are obviously Superba I baris. They were special order.

jotteff
03-25-2003, 09:09 AM
Hi saxpics,

I see you found the few German bits on the Keilwerth history on the web. There's a book on the beginnings of musical instrument building in Graslitz (by G. Dullat), copies of which regularly pop up on German Ebay. I always wanted to check whether one of the libraries here in Hamburg has a copy and see whether it's worth the expense.

From a mail sent to my by Gaby Kerrmann of the Boosey customer service (translated by me):

"... the model "Solist" was the best Keilwerth at the time, hence the pearls. The New King was the standard model, the Toneking was the pro model. Later (1956) there was the Toneking Special also, which was even more luxurious"

I got this in reply to an enquiry about a Toneking (engraving on bell) with the model designation "Solist" (stamped below the old JKG trade mark). Serial No. is 8008. Unfortunately, the horn is in an unspeakable state, looks as if it had been literally fished from the sewer. Rods corroded in place, bent, posts knocked off and partly but back on with plumber's lead etc... If it wasn't a Keilwerth, I would have turned it into a lampshade without regret. It's partly disassembled now, but once I get 'round to at least clean off the dirt it's covered in, I'll send you some pics.

What's special about that model is that it has split bell keys and pearls on all keys. Rolled tone holes and microtuner (missing the barrel) as well, of course. Wire keyguards, LH pinky cluster very Conn-like, including a cross-hatched pearl inlay on the G-sharp key.

The models called "King" must have been the very earliest Keilwerths, I guess. There was one on German Ebay lately, split bell keys and wire keyguards, if I remember correctly.

The daugther of a colleague of mine recently bought a Toneking in the 10k serial range, designated "Modell 2" below the trade mark. Right-hand bell keys with ordinary sheet metal guards. I got a bit of a bad conscience when I saw the horn, because she asked me whether she should go for it. The seller had told her it was about 30 years old, and she could only remember it had sheet metal key guards, not the wing, so I was really surprised when I saw the serial number. Needless to say, she didn't really get a bargain because the horn needs a complete adjustment...

Btw.: anyone have an idea what will happen to the Keilwerth forum? As it seems, Boosey have taken all pages of their former instruments division off the net.

Pete
03-25-2003, 08:22 PM
Thanks for the info! I think I'll have the best researched Keilwerth 'site on the web! Wish I could speak German, though.

Boosey and Hawkes recently had a reorg (within the past month or so). Their musical instrument division is now called "The Music Group" and have relocated to http://www.musicgroup.com/

The Keilwerth Forum is still accessible through this website at http://www.boosey.com/cgi-bin/sqlforum.exe?name=doForumContent&Forum=Julius+Keilwerth+Saxophones

The Martin
03-26-2003, 05:45 AM
My conclusion:
KW - The New King = Student horns
KW - Toneking (special) = Pro horns

Is this (allways) true :?: (also for the pre war horns)

Pete
03-26-2003, 06:31 PM
Definitely not!

The New King was a pro model, just lacking an altissimo F# key. The New King became "intermediate" or "student" in the early 60's.

sarge
03-31-2003, 03:54 PM
Pete,
I've had a couple dozen mid to late 60's new kings here, some mine some customers... I don't know how anyone could call them intermediate or student. they are identicle to the tonekings, except they lack the high F# key. I have measured them for bore, compared metal quality and workmanship... i find they are pro quality all the way. and sound, they are just as powerful as expected.

zgatt
04-02-2003, 04:48 PM
It looks like the www.keilwerth.com name will continue to follow the brand.

madav
04-02-2003, 05:31 PM
I bought a the New King off German ebay, and the information that I got with it and which I think backs up what is said here is that the 'level' of the different models altered, due to movng tha factory/different sons etc.
The one I have is serial no. 26000 or so, with rolled tone holes and the metal guard. Quality and mechanism seems very solid, distinctive strong sound, but whether it is the 'Pro'/'intermediate'/student model or not I couldn't tell without playing the other models.

Corky Jordan
05-31-2003, 06:19 AM
I picked up this little horn for cheap real good condition put a Ponzol M1-65
mouthpiece and a Bari Soft Plastic Reed on it and well its okay "Being A Poorboy WannaBe" and all, I was wondering if anyone had some info on it I'm almost certain it's just a student model horn but is it an american made horn ? What year of manufacture ? I saw a little piece on the Kielworth site that said if you input an Armstrong serial into there database and it returns a valid date of manufacture which mine did "1979" it was made by Kielworth, is this true ? Any help appreciated.

sarge
05-31-2003, 03:30 PM
Corky,
I have heard conflicting stories on that, but mostly opinions seem to be that they are not made at the keilwerth factory. More than that I can't say, as even keilwerth replys with conflicting answers. they do always agree on one thing, if it has the jk logo with something like best in the world / made in germany, it is a keilwerth.
sarge

Corky Jordan
05-31-2003, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the input, Well at least its better than the last $400 horn I had its was a King "HN White" nice horn played great but it was so old it kept breakin all the time, guys here in town wanted like $600 bucks to overhaul it. So i bought this payed to much probly $800 but its like in mint condition. When I run the scales on the tuner its real good in middle register but man on the bottom end it goes flatter than a fritter good thing God gave me a good ear cant read music "much just a little" got kicked out of band for improvin in school ;). Got my Ponz mouthpiece jammed all the way in, top register I tend to really bear down but Ive been fightin that habit for like well 25yrs or so....

russps
06-11-2003, 03:24 AM
How do the king tempos relate into the history of keilwerth?

Russ

Corky Jordan
06-11-2003, 03:31 AM
Well heck with it I dont care were it came from ;) This litlle sucka WaLeS... Only bummer is my expensive Ponzol m1-65 sounds terrible on it but I put an ole selmer on it with a bari plastic reed and a rovner it sounds like a freakin trumpet.... I like it. and didnt have to trade a testicle to get it..

csax
06-11-2003, 10:20 AM
In case anyone hasn't found them yet, the Keilwerth ( and all other B&H forums ), are all at -

http://www.musicgroup.com/Instruments/Forum/FrameForum.htm

Regards, Alan.

( have a 90K JK Toneking Exclusiv tenor - I always thought that my 'The Martin' tenor was solidly built, but this JK..........! )

shmuelyosef
06-25-2003, 05:08 AM
How do the king tempos relate into the history of keilwerth?

Russ

I am just echoing this question because I am curious (and I have a bari that I am slowly realizing how fabulous mit is)

Pete
06-25-2003, 03:32 PM
King Tempo=Armstrong Heritage=Bundy=H-Couf Royalist=Keilwerth New King "IV"

I've mentioned (and maintain) that these "intermediate/student" Keilwerths may have been made with lower quality materials and/or quality controls. Indeed, one starts to wonder why the New King model changed from being advertised as a pro model to an intermediate one.

Take a peek at http://www.saxpics.com/Keilwerth/new_king/index.htm

coufplayer
06-05-2005, 02:38 AM
In reference to the H Couf history - they also made Superba I sopranos - I've got one! They don't have rolled tone holes, like the tenor and altos, and I don't have a clue how they differ from the Superba II's

cfile
07-25-2005, 06:47 PM
Can anyone tell me how the Dorfler Jorka (sp?) horns fits into this picture. I purchased a "The National" alto saxophone that some folks have said is a DJ horn much like the Voss. It apparently has a JK body with different keywork. Has rolled tone holes but says made in Western Germany, not JK best in the world. I understand that the DJ company was bought out by JK at some point later. When was the buyout? What is the quality of this horn? Anyone know if this is the same body as the New King/Toneking horn?

Jolle
04-25-2006, 09:01 AM
Hi there,

I didn't get the whole history I think :

I am looking for a new soprano, and somebody is willing to sell me a Keilwerth, but he couldn't say what type and didn't want to look at the serial number. Only thing I know is that it is appx. 20 years old. Now I'm not sure what the possibilities are : can it still be a sax from the Toneking model, or could it be already a SX or a EX model? It might also be a Ponzol model (when it's slightly less than 20 years old).

Second question : how do they differ? (didn't really figure that one out either, been looking at saxpics.com but I don't really see it yet)

greetzz

stevesklar
09-24-2006, 04:38 PM
Jolle - off the top of my head .... 20 years old it could be a Ponzol but i'm sure he only made tenors and maybe altos and in the 1989-1991 era. But it is more likely a Couf (JK). JK themselves sold some with their name on it but few during that era.

do you have any pics or a better description ?

Kritavi
09-24-2006, 04:52 PM
The King Tempo and the Armstrong Heritage definately do not equal the Royalist, They are equal to the Supurba II.

cornific
09-24-2006, 05:28 PM
i have kielwerth alto that is a (type IV?) two tone that i purchased here in canada. it came from an estate in ottawa ontario

it is engraved Morley TONE KING. it is a two tone with nickle plated keys and rolled toneholes. this has the couf superba two point guards like a selmer bundy special and the couf superbas and . the morley engravingis a script that sits diagonally above the toneking and looks as though it could have been added to an original toneking. although it looks as though it was done at the factory it is a strikingly different font

there is a chance that this is spelled Morly ... my horns are a couple of thousand kms away from my gaze at the moment. no high f# so it is between the models described in your above history. i believe it is early sixties about 64

stevesklar
09-24-2006, 08:26 PM
The Royalist and Royalist I were JK models. The Royalist II was a reverse engineered JK horn built in the 'ole US .. reverse engineered from Mr. Coufs offices in Detroit MI - believe it or not.

scottieAnthony
10-16-2006, 12:12 PM
I have just had some emails from a girl called Gabby at Keilwerth,and I can tell you that the Toneking was not a student horn,In fact it was there top range horn,This is what she sent to me,This is in reply to a email I sent to Keilwerth, about a New King with Roll tone holes that was from 1956 that I have just got.

Hello again,

The model is THE NEW KING, this inscription is found on the bell. From the photos I cannot see if it has rolled toneholes. For a certain time we did make them with rolled toneholes. The New King was the standard model, but not a student model. We started making student models later, all our models were professional saxophones. The Toneking had more professional features than the New King and used to be the top end model.

The New King was preferred by many musicians because it did not have the F# key, especially in the US. As I wrote in my previous email, Don Menza played this model.

Kind regards,

Gaby Kerrmann

long island tenor
03-14-2008, 01:16 AM
Does anyone have info on the A3200 or T3200 COUFs?

Neil Sharpe
03-14-2008, 04:27 PM
There is a question as to whether the T3200 Couf actually was made by Keilwerth. It has been argued that T3200 was made and designed by Armstrong, “based” on a Keilwerth design, but was not made by Keilwerth.
http://www.saxpics.com/keilwerth/h-couf.htm

long island tenor
03-14-2008, 05:52 PM
I assume this is also the case for the Alto. Does anyone have any experience with the Armstrong design?

Keilwerth4U
02-22-2009, 03:22 AM
Your History is fascinating... I have wondered about my Saxophone for years...

I was 20 in South Africa in the late 60's when I purchased this magnificent B-Tenor Julius Keilwerth - The New King (TNK) - Gold/Nickel. I brought it out with me to the USA in 1972 and have owned it in San Diego for over 40 years and I am trying to find out how much it's worth.

I have the original Documents in which the Instrument No. is engraved on the saxophone and referenced as 58 289 and is a B-Tenor - The New King - Goldl / Nickel.

I also have the original case, reeds etc. and I think that it must have significant vintage value after all these years .

Everything indicates that this saxophone model was made in the original plant in Nauheim. Help from anyone figuring out its insurance value would be most appreciated.
Thanks! Geoff(Keilwerth4U)San Diego, California
PHONE: 858-793-6200 / 858-353-8337 or Email: yourway@aol.com

JayePDX
03-27-2009, 05:33 PM
I always find it fascinating when a person has documentation of the actual provenance of the horn. I would love to see a pic of it if you care to post one....

Begemot
04-12-2009, 05:07 PM
Hi. I have bought Toneking Amati Kraslice a soprano saxophone, series 1192. How to learn year of release of this saxophone? Whether it is professional?

ksievert
04-18-2009, 10:38 PM
Did Keilwerth make a Jubilee model in the 1960s? I have seen one on ebay and cannot find any information on this, which I find interesting.

Siggie
11-11-2009, 07:16 AM
This history has an error, which you've helped to point out. The Superba 1 sopranos and Superba 1 baritones did not have rolled tone holes.


In reference to the H Couf history - they also made Superba I sopranos - I've got one! They don't have rolled tone holes, like the tenor and altos, and I don't have a clue how they differ from the Superba II's

Aman
08-14-2012, 06:29 PM
Does anyone have any info on the B & H 400 Series that is apparently a Keilwerth stencil horn also?

sirspinbad
08-14-2012, 07:41 PM
More than that I can't say, as even keilwerth replys with conflicting answers. they do always agree on one thing, if it has the jk logo with something like best in the world / made in germany, it is a keilwerth.
sarge
is this statement correct??????

my horn is an Amati Tone King that has the JK best in the world stamp yet under it it says made in Czech.....

that of course doesnt make the above statement incorrect!!! im just asking the question

and what about the Amati Toneking????

it's made in the original factory on the same original machines........ so does that make it a lesser horn to a JK made in Germany????

ive played quite a few lateley that are KILLING...and they were all amatis

mine is for sale..btw

vbluesman
02-14-2014, 02:28 PM
I have some Keilwerth Questions...
Has the SX 90 always have the Selmer style "rocker mechanism"?
Was the SX 90 the first Keilwerth saxophone to be sold and distributed in the US with the Keilwerth name on the bell?
Has the Keilwerth saxophone tube remain unchanged since the fifties?
Did Selmer have patents on its table mechanism that perhaps expired allowing everybody to copy it?
Thanks for any responses.

ILoveJK
02-15-2014, 05:07 AM
Yes, the SX-90 was the first Keilwerth saxophone, to be sold in the US, with the Keilwerth name on the bell. I do not know about the rocker mechanism or the table mechanism. The tubes may have been changed (not exactly sure) since the 1950s. I say this because, some cats say the Superba 1 is darker, and and has a larger sound, than the SX-90R. I don't know if it's true, as I have never played a Superba 1.