Sax on the Web Forum / SML (Strasser-Marigaux) / Coleman Hawkins Special?

Daniel M.
User ID: 2915724
Jun 2nd 9:17 AM
Hi guys,
I've been trying to find some information about this sax on the net, but I have found very little (I have the possibility to buy one, but I'm not sure whether it is worth it). I would appreciate it if you could share any of your personal experiences about this horn wiht me. How does this SML model compare to the other SMLs (Gold Medal horns in particular)?

Thanks in advance,
Daniel M.
Richard
User ID: 0262034
Jun 3rd 12:03 AM
The Coleman Hawkins Special is extremely rare! The one I have (I've never seen another) is very impressive. It's silver plated with a gold wash in the bell and very even and free-blowing throughout the range of the horn. The low B and Bb seem to play effortlessly and the top tones are beautiful too. I think the craftsmen at SML really put a lot of care into this model.
John T.
User ID: 1348824
Jun 3rd 2:14 PM
The CH Specials had left hand Bell Keys, One of the First Models SML ever Made.

Hawkins played one in the Late 30's while he was living in Paris. But, no one seems to know how long after that he kept playing it.

Selmer "Fame" started a little after the Balanced Action came out in 36'. My guess is that Hawkins was probably hooked into Selmers by 1940 or right after he came back into the States.
BFree
User ID: 8214233
Dec 7th 8:39 PM
There's one of these listed on EBay right now by Witchita Band that's not drawing very high bids ($500 with only one day left). Is this model not too desireable?..or is it the condition?...or the seller?...I just thought this might be a rare and therefore desirable SML
Randall
User ID: 8722703
Dec 7th 9:10 PM
I am beginning to smell a rotten fish.
I surfed into the Wichita band site on the 4th and inquired about this horn. i recieved an email reply quite quickly. They were interested to sell.
I began to negotiate on a sale for this horn. Wichita never once mentioned that it was on Ebay or about to be put up on Ebay. Until this very moment I was under the impression that we were still working out a deal (there are a couple of apparently unanswerable questions that i am waiting on to be answered) because as Wichita said "the boss is out of town until Tuesday".
It would seem that I may be taken to be some kind of fool.
Perhaps we have someone visiting our board here who takes notes and tries to play the customers ?
I can't say with any certainty; but I don't like being misled or jerked around.
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Dec 7th 11:29 PM
Probably a good horn.
Maybe doesn't attract bids because everybody knows that Wichita's reserves are very high?

Steve Goodson
User ID: 2846584
Dec 8th 6:46 AM
For the record, the owner of Wichita Band, Gary Ray, is in Europe until next week.
Randall
User ID: 1689844
Dec 8th 5:00 PM
Thanks for the info Steve...how did you know about that?
It also comes to mind that if a store cannot manage to sell horns while the boss is out of town then something is a bit odd or at least in need of a workforce adjustment...
Also, the horn in question was put on Ebay the very day I inquired and entered into making negotions about it...also we were discussing a trade plus cash. Now if Morgan is right, and I have noticed some awfully high reserves on their horns at times, it would seem that something is indeed fishy.
So what happens if I say "yes" to a cash purchase?.. Then they yank it off Ebay?
Probably they say, "sorry you'll have to bid on it now...it was put on Ebay" And if it doesn't reach reserve? Then the price suddenly goes up becuase, "it reached $XXX on Ebay..you'll have to anty up..."
How would you all feel if a dealer is working with you on a sax (one you have expressed strong, definite interest in) and then that dealer puts the horn up for auction or has already put it up for auction and doesn't even mention it to you during your negotiaions?
Nope...I wasn't born yesterday.
Cheezy bob
User ID: 0115944
Dec 11th 8:34 PM
I think that they are trying to feel out the general interest in this horn before they let it go to you. Testing the waters to see what people are willing to bid on it.

It didnt go past $700, looks like might have over estimated. (IMHO its a little to esoteric of a horn for ebay public)

Now they'll probably be eager to sell it to you...if your not that hot for it, tell them to go F*&K THEMSELVES--thats what more of us have to do to dealers like that until they get the message & stop pulling stuff like this.

you dig?
StevenW
User ID: 0833354
Dec 11th 9:24 PM
As the high bidder my appologies for stumbling on this thread now - it isn't right to be playing eBay against a negotiated sale like that.

My highest bid was plenty above the $709 mark - remember in proxy bidding it takes two bids or a bid above reserve to move the amount up.

My idea of what it was worth, as a bid upon sax, was obviously less than what they feel it was worth or what they intended to sell it for.

Oh well, my appologies and poor luck..........
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Dec 11th 10:04 PM
It's on their www page at $1975 -- not an unreasonable dealer price for that horn. I don't see what's the matter with them taking a sales call on it while it's on auction. By way of comparison, if two people are interested in the same horn, it's not a problem for the dealer to have ongoing discussions with both of them and then also put a new ad in the paper too. Whoever puts up the money first, gets it.

<<So what happens if I say "yes" to a cash purchase?.. Then they yank it off Ebay? >>

Sure. What's the big deal?
Mene Gene
User ID: 0436494
Dec 13th 12:28 AM
Dude, I think that they were negotiating with the guy BEFORE they put it on eBay.

They were just testing interest to see what it might be "worth", before letting it go below $1,975.

Not unscrupulus, but a little on the shady side to me.
Randall
User ID: 1689844
Dec 13th 5:20 AM
You seem to have gotten it Mene Gene! :-)
Morgan, when you put a horn up on Ebay it can be bid on...and what if the horn gets bid on (which it did!) and then I say "I'll buy it now." (while not knowing it is on Ebay?) Once a horn is bid upon the auction cannot be ended early (according to my understanding of the rules).
And, no apologies needed Steven...you ain't bad!
Cheezy,
Actually I am not garnering too much favor with dealers because I am uncovering/exposing a bit of the chicanery that sometimes goes on.
That being said, there's always room for misunderstanding on my part and that certainly happens. I'm only human. I can only call 'em as I see 'em...and I don't own one of those "all seeing eyes" portrayed on the back of your one dollar bill.
Still, your sentiments are appreciated!
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Dec 13th 9:48 AM
They may have judged that you were just a tirekicker, and they'd need to try other sales avenues.

When a caller is enquiring about a horn, the dealer is perfectly free to advertise it elsewhere or to talk to other prospective customers. Whoever claims it first, gets it. If the 'other prospective customers' happen to be eBay, well then, hitting reserve constitutes "claiming it first". In such a situation you might have called the store saying "yes I'll take it" and they'd say "sorry, other guy beat you to it".

$2k is an excellent price for that horn. Just buy it and have a nice time playing it.


Jerry K.
User ID: 0101764
Dec 13th 2:19 PM
Morgan, though I agree with your view that whoever claims the sax first gets it, I don't agree with your previous comments that it's no big deal to end the auction early in order to sell to a private buyer. I think that when a seller decides to place an item in a auction, the auction should be allowed to end normally. This is especially true in auctions where the reserve has been met. You enter into an agreement when you list an item for sale on ebay. Here the ebay policy if your curious:

5.2 Binding Bids. Except for items listed in a category under the Non-binding Bid Policy, if you receive at least one bid at or above your stated minimum price (or in the case of reserve auctions, at or above the reserve price), you are obligated to complete the transaction with the highest bidder upon the auction's completion, unless there is an exceptional circumstance, such as: (a) the buyer fails to meet the terms of your listing (such as payment method), or (b) you cannot authenticate the buyer's identity.

I personally avoid bidding on items listed by sellers that regularly end auctions early, and I don't make private sales on instruments while I have them listed on Ebay. It's just not ethical to back out on a deal once both parties have agreed on a fair price.
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Dec 13th 3:42 PM
Sure. If it hits reserve, then eBay has "claimed" it. That's what I said.

Closing the auction before it hits reserve is not "backing out".

I also don't make private sales on instruments while I have them listed on Ebay, but then I don't use instrument sales to pay the rent so I can afford to be less aggressive.
Jerry K.
User ID: 0101764
Dec 13th 5:32 PM
Morgan, some sellers seem to make a regular practice of making private sales on items they have listed and then closing the auction early. That's what I really don't like, especially when I am the high bidder on that item at the time. From Ebay's point of view you are obligated to complete the auction if the minimum bid and or the reserve is met.

I guess I just expect a seller to let the auction end as scheduled unless they make a major mistake in the listing.

By the way, I wasn't saying that you personally would sell a sax privately while a valid auction is still underway. I am like you in that instrument sales make a miniscule contribution to my overall income. However, I still don't think my attitude would differ even if this were my only source of income.