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Sax on the Web / SML (Strasser-Marigaux) / Rev C vs. Rev D ??

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Steve Goodson
User ID: 1062774
Oct 10th 7:52 PM
My good friend and fellow dealer Palo Tung brought over his newly acquired Rev C, and although I admit to being extremely sleep deprived and highly stressed, I can't really find a lot of differences between the Rev C and and Rev D (which I own). In my mentally challenged state, what did I miss? BTW, Palo's new axe is fabulous, tight and straight, with a good 90% original lacquer and a big fine voice. I've already tried to buy it from him!
tungp
User ID: 0952054
Oct 10th 9:35 PM
To almost quote the bearded serf in "Love And Death, gripping a divot of grass, "THIS LAND IS NOT FOR SALE!"

(because "...some day, I hope to build on it!")

Just to add some detail, Steve was very generous in letting me take his gold-plated Rev D -- talk about the holy grail -- home to A/B with my SML. I did find my horn a tiny bit darker than his, and it's not set-up as well yet, and the pad/reso installations are different (mine's got brown Selmer-style & semi crusty old pads -- soon to be replaced).

Serial # on my horn is 88xx, toward later numbers, with:

- rolled tone holes
- adjustable bumpers on keyguards
- set screw adjusments for upper and lower stack C# & F# linkages
- Conn-esque (non-rocking) pearl-button thumb rest
- set screws for F#-G# linkage for both G# & Bis linkage contact points
- engraved lower stack clothes guard
- floating/rotating neck tenon locking screw
- matching serial number on underside of neck, relatively large print
- adjustable G#-C# linkage plate (for automatic/non-automatic G#)
- more I've yet to discover.

It's an awesome -- in the most literal sense, of awe-inspiring -- horn. I can finally really understand what SML owners have been talking about. To me, the finest horn I've yet owned.

In many ways, I have to thank Fred Ciccetti, Paul Coates, Steve, and the other SML owners here for making that possible. Quite possibly, my own tenor search is at an end. Maybe. I hope. Until another SML comes along.
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Oct 10th 11:14 PM
I think it's the octave key thumbrest that makes it a "C" not a "D". Oh, and perhaps your octave linkage doesn't have that cute see-saw.

Some "C"s lack the floating neck tenon screw and the RH/LH stack set screws. But these appeared by #8000.

There doesn't seem to be a single flavor of "C". Rather, "C" spans a period where they were making small modifications one by one over a couple years; "D" marks a period where they settled on a design, and stuck with it for quite a while.
morgan
User ID: 0784604
Oct 10th 11:34 PM
My guess is the one really significant change in SMLs over 50 years, from a playing/performance point of view, is the addition of the BigBell and [partially] ribbed construction. From there on, the Super/C/D/GoldMedal are all the same voice.

Manofsteel
User ID: 9084913
Oct 11th 4:47 PM
Palo, Steve, and Morgan,

Geez, now I'm not sure if I have a Rev D or C! I'm shipping my sax out to Palo tomorrow (can't find your address and I left my clamps at home grrrr) and really await hearing the differences both mechanically and sonically, esp between mine and Steve's as ours are both gold plated, sn 97xx.

It's basically got all the bells and whistles listed as the 22 options except for the rocking thumbrest.

I hope when I get it back, it'll make me want to ship the Yani 992 bronze right back to the ww&bw, cause right now, I'm liking the yani!!!
Brenton
User ID: 0178794
Oct 12th 10:12 AM
Steve, the definitive answer to your question is that Saxpics decided to call the 'modern' SML Saxes that say Strasser, Marigaux AND Lemaire on them = Rev C, and those that were produced after Lemaire's name was omitted = Rev D. The Rocking Octave Thumb Rest came later still but haven't (yet ?) been given their own model nickname. S/N 97xx is right about when some of them are Rev C, some Rev D. Should be no different in playing characteristics or general appearance. Peace
Manofsteel
User ID: 9084913
Oct 12th 1:15 PM
Thanks for the clarification...I've been trying to get on PJ's site for some time but I guess he hasn't loaded everything onto his new servers yet...

Based on what you state, I have a Rev D as Mr. Lemaire's name is nowhere to be seen.

BTW, does anyone have a picture of the rocking thumbrest? I've never seen a close up of one.

Best regards,

MoS
zigzag
User ID: 2964484
Oct 12th 1:47 PM
Manofsteel
I have pics of the rocking thumb rest that were sent to me from Paul C back in June. Give me your email and I'll forward them to you.
manofsteel
User ID: 6110683
Oct 15th 9:05 PM
Thanks ZZ. YOu can shoot them to me at parksteel@pacbell.net
zigzag
User ID: 2964484
Oct 15th 9:12 PM
manofsteel...on the way
saxpics Oct 20th 2:29 PM
A bit of the comparision info can be found on my 'site at http://saxpics.crosswinds.net/smlcompare.htm
(still having server problems; no pics. There's further info. on the SMLrevC.htm and SMLrevD.htm pages. You can also take a peek at what I have defined the serial number ranges as).

Bottom line is that the vast majority of the Rev. D horns are missing only three of the "22 Features" touted on the Gold Medal "Mk. I" and the Rev. C can be missing up to 9 of them. Your mileage will vary depending on the serial number. I also "upgrade" my model charts (i.e. when Rick M. finds a new SML no one's ever seen before :) based on the horns that I see or have seen -- and I've seen probably about 500 to 1,000 SML's so far.

IMHO, if I were needing to choose between a gold-plate Rev D and a lacquer Gold Medal, I'd take the Rev D. I think I'd do the same even for a Rev C.

Anyhow, 97xx should be early in the Rev D era, MOS.

Ta!
Pete
The VSG
Our motto: "FTP is still down"
http://saxpics.crosswinds.net
manofsteel
User ID: 9084913
Oct 23rd 6:00 PM
Thanks PJ...back to where I thought I was, a Rev D. Mine doesn't have the nice bell lip engraving but does have the adjustable felts and all the rest. 20 features ain't so bad.

Do you know if the gold medals were offered in gold plate? And how many solid sterling necks have you seen? I think I've only seen the one for an alto at Cybersax or somewhere online. Never seen one on eBay either. I wonder if they were actually made by King or if SML actually manufactured them.

I sure will be glad when you get your site up...Damn, 500-1000 SMLs???? Lucky you, even if they are only pictures...
saxpics
User ID: 9342693
Nov 2nd 8:07 PM
Thanks, MOS, and sorry for the delay.

I've seen less than a half-dozen SML's with the sterling silver necks, but all were in the Rev C or D era.

I've not yet seen a gold-plate Gold Medal (which, even to consider, is kind of odd). I'd believe this plating probably does exist, as I've seen nickle, lacquer, burnished and satin silver and two-tone lacquer with nickle keys. It's possible it's just an extremely rare plating, as it was on the Selmer Mark VI.

What I really want to see is if there's an SML with a lacquer body and sterling silver bell. I've heard rumors ...

Ta!
Pete
tungp
User ID: 0952054
Nov 2nd 9:37 PM
I'm at the tail end of putting MoS's Rev D back together. The only mechanical differences I've noticed between his 97xx and my 88xx are that his (very lusciously gold-plated, you should all be warned) Rev D has a very minor difference in the octave key design. My Rev C/D has a coiled spring loaded into one end of the (for lack of a better term) see-sawing lever; this spring fits into one end of the lever that is hollowed out, and this tube, with the spring in it, goes into the ball socket just as with MoS's D. The same lever on MoS's D, on the other hand, is solid/not hollowed out. Also, the ball in the center of this lever (fits into a hole in the arm of the body tube octave pip key) is fitted differently on MoS's D. On my horn (earlier model), the ball sits in the joint without touching the octave pip key -- i.e., the ball in the center of the "see-saw" lever can pass completely through the opening in the octave key pip key's arm; this seems to be the original design. On the later model, MoS's, the hole in the octave pip key arm is conical, so that it stops the ball in the center of the "see-saw" lever; i.e. the ball can't pass through, and is kept in place by the fitted socket.

Probably this explanation makes no sense at all, unless you have an SML in front of you. Or have just drunk about 15 cups of coffee, as I have.
tungp
User ID: 0952054
Nov 2nd 9:39 PM
Just to add: between these two incarnations, key cup sizes all seem to be the same. All other features seem to be the same. I can't speak as to ribs, tho -- would have to look to see if there's a difference there, and I'm not in that room of my house (and am too lazy to go there, despite current caffeine frenzy).
saxpics
User ID: 0541004
Nov 7th 8:19 PM
I'll have to investigate that a bit further and probably will have to adjust my serial number charts accordingly. I can say that some of the horns I have seen, say the 782x burnished gold horn on my 'site, has a lot more of the Rev D's features than the 73xx alto I've got, but there's an 81xx tenor that has fewer features than the 782x alto.

tungp, does your horn have the name "Lemaire" engraved in the bell? Can you send me some pics?

I have found some interesting things in the SML models, as of late:

- There are at least two different versions of "Coleman Hawkins" model horns
- There are at least three different "Super" models

I'm working on rebuilding my 'site. Well, I don't work 12 hour shifts next week ...

Pete
saxpics@hotmail.com
I might have a new website soon ...
tungp
User ID: 0952054
Nov 8th 12:23 AM
Hi Pete,

Yes: mine has the "Lemaire" name.

Will send pics as soon as I have time. Am due for a big "my personal collection"-type photo session. Am just waiting for a Conn sop & gold-plated Rev D to arrive, so I can do it all at once. Email me with the size preference, if there is one?

email: justsaxes@att.net
Dr. Inconspicuous
User ID: 9293943
Nov 8th 12:32 AM
Hey Saxpics, interested in pictures of a Super 46 alto?
Color of tungp
User ID: 0952054
Nov 8th 6:17 AM
Everywhere I look, 46 altos.

"It's like a nightmare, isn't it? It just keeps getting worse and worse...."

Pete, it's a very photogenic horn Dr. I mentions.
saxpics
User ID: 9182423
Nov 8th 5:35 PM
Hmm ... Dr. I, I seem to have been told about its replating by Anderson's. A party we both know has sent me some pics.

It's a beautiful horn and I have expressed my desire for more pics. If you've got 'em, please send more!

tungp, I have no size preference, just as long as the pics look nice.

I definitely will have to revisit the serial number charts on the end of the Rev. C, especially because the beautiful replated alto at www.worldwidesax.com has a serial number under 95xx (take a peek: http://www.worldwidesax.com/images/sml8871e.jpg). tungp, if that's your horn, it's marvelous.

At first blush, I think I'm going to have to change the ending range for the Rev. C to 85xx and note for the Rev. D the engraving change. I might want a bit earlier, but not until I see more horns that were produced between 8xxx and 9xxx, especially tenors (see my last post, above).

I will definitely look closer at the Rev. D and the wordwidesax horn and see if there are any significant differences, but there doesn't appear to be.

Thank you all. This will be the first significant change I've made to the serial number chart in almost two years!

Side note: it looks like my new webspace is a go. I'll be testing this weekend. That may mean a whole new SML mini-site in a week or so.

I'll keep you posted. Keep sending me pics.

Pete
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