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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Questions about 83K Selmer VI

Next 20 Messages

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 1st 3:05 AM
I am not a pro but enjoy playing a lot. I hope my questions are not too trivial. I have been play testing a few altos at a dealer and came upon a Selmer with a 83XXX serial number. It is in very good condition and I really like the sound and keywork. I brought it home on approval. The more I play it the more I like it.
The dealer says it is a Mark VI. It does not have Mark IV engraved anywhere. All the engraving on the bell is in french: made in France, Place Dancourt, Paris... There is no serial number on the neck. Also the tenon is of a lighter silverish color which is different from the dark gold lacquer of the rest of the horn.

Is all this unusual for a Mark VI?

The asking price is $3500. Is this a reasonable price?

Thank you

SuperBalanced Psyche
User ID: 9656233 Sep 1st 4:08 AM
S/N 55201-220800, 1954-1974 (alto & tenor) are mark VI's (from http://www.saxpics.com/selmer/markvi.htm). I don't believe the Selmers have serial #'s on the neck. At least mine doesn't. The engraving in french is normal, and seems to match what is on my horn. If it is in fact a Mark VI, and you like the way it plays I'd say that $3500 is a fine price.

Disclaimer- i'm far from an expert...

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 1st 8:56 AM
Thanks SuperBalanced Psyche. Played again this morning. I like the sound and the ergonomy. It feels like I don't have to adapt to it, just practice the music.

Anyhow. I have a week to compare to the Series III. I will make recordings to better compare.
I feel the VI Mark will be my choice, engravings or not.

By the way, I like that name: SuperBalanced Psyche (I am a psychiatrist by profession)!

BohoSheets
User ID: 1314254 Sep 1st 9:04 AM
the different color (different metal alloy) tenon -- i assume you mean the "ring" on the body that receives the neck tenon, is normal. There was some thread around here that discussed that. My 97K tenor has that also. I'm not sure, but perhaps only horns that were shipped/reassembled in the US had serial numbers on the neck ? It does not say "Mark VI" on the bow/bell connector ring? hmm, i thought even the pure french horns had that

saxhorn4
User ID: 8910463 Sep 1st 9:05 AM
JEB...i have a 87xxx Alto . It has the matching serial number on the neck but does'nt say mark vi anywhere. My 80xxx and 103xxx have both....strange both...Strange??

Joe
User ID: 9077913 Sep 1st 12:06 PM
Selmer wasn't real consistent about putting the serial number on the necks and only the US assembled horns have them. It sounds like a VI. However, JEB, you should get the horn to an experienced player/repair tech for a look before buying for other reasons.

If it's original finish and in good shape mechanically, $3,500 is a more than fair price. If it's a relacquer and/or needs a lot of action work, $3,500 could be way too high. Have a knowledgeable third party check it out for condition and give you an estimate of its value.
$3,500 could be a lot for a horn that's only worth $2,500 (relac) and in need of a $500 overhaul.

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 1st 12:37 PM
Thanks BohoSheets. And yes, I meant "ring" on the body that receives the neck tenon.

Thanks saxhorn4. Your answer clarifies. If I understand well there seems to have been inconsistancies from Selmer about serial numbers and engraving.

Thanks also Joe. It clarifies further. Also, I will follow your advice and get an experienced player and/or tech to check the condition and give an estimate because all I am really going by right now is that I really like the sound of the horn and that it plays very well and in tune.

I will give you all a follow-up.

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 3rd 7:56 PM
Some follow-up.

I had the horn checked by 2 techs. They are pretty sure that it is the original lacquer (from the darker color, engravings and "even edge of the tone holes"). It needed a bit of adjustment which they did for free. Besides that it is in very good condition.

I need a last piece of advice before I decide to buy it. I have no problems getting all the notes out except for low C. It gargles or wobbles. No problems with low C#, B or Bb. The techs could not find any leaks. One of the techs thinks it needs to be played for a while because he said that the pads are in good conditions but very dry and will get better as I play. I tested it with a Meyer 5M with Superials 2.5, Nadoren 2.5 and Rico 2.5.

Any opinions? I don't think it is my playing as I don't get this problem with a Series III, a JK SX90R or a Couf superba I I have been ocmparing the VI to. But again, I am not a pro.

Thanks

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Sep 6th 11:49 AM
Curiously low C is my most difficult note on my 181k Mk VI alto.

Have you tried another mpce?...

shortwhite
User ID: 8868883 Sep 6th 12:32 PM
Try dropping the end plug into the bell to stop this gurgling. People have been doing this for years. Let us know if it works

GW

Bones
User ID: 1307164 Sep 6th 4:01 PM
It sounds like a Mark VI originally sold in Europe, or at least not in the U.S. The low gurgles are common on VI alto's. Dropping the end plug or cork down the bell is a common cure. I find that a less resistance mouthpiece set-up also usually solves the problem. Your mouthpiece set-up looks like it should work fairly well, but you might try others.

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 6th 7:43 PM
Thanks Steve, Shortwhite, Bones,

You guys are amazing! It works! I had almost found a solution by rotating reeds: some reeds caused the low C problems, others didnt. But the end plug solution works with any reed and feels easier.

As a non pro, I feel very fortunate to have access to so much experience through STOW.

It is now coming to the verdict: between the Couf Superba I (which I own), the Mark VI and Series III on approval. All nice horn with distinctive sounds. Totally subjective I guess. On sound: Couf and Mark VI, a tie; on fun/feel: Mark VI first, Couf then III. Unfortunately, where I live there are not too many good vintage horns around nor any new Yanis to compare with. I will do some more playing and decide before tomorrow when I have to return the horns.

Thanks

I don't know

Thank again

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 8th 1:58 PM
Finally bought the Mark VI. Decisive factors were sound and fun/feel factor.

Thanks everybody for the advice.

MBushaw
User ID: 1390494 Sep 8th 3:50 PM
If you are still having problems with the low C#, you may want to try sealing the body-to-bow connection. It's a little harder on the VI because of the removable ring (don't play with that), but could be worth the trouble. The long-term method is to get some silicone sealer and apply to the INSIDE of the horn at the seam, calls for removing a couple of keys for access. You can try a very temporary seal with very thick liquid hand soap or clay or putty or anything that you can put all around the connector (again a little harder because of the removable ring).

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 8th 6:59 PM
MBushaw,

Thank you for the suggestion. The problem has disappear. Changing read had helped. Finally, as I was closing the deal at the store, the tech who was selling the horn checked it over, changed a few pads and adjusted the low C#. It now blows very easily and evenly without gargle.

I think he found a leak that the others had not found. He seemed liked a very experieced tech with about 40 years experience, very sentimental about his horns and a lot of stories to tell.

Thanks again

Joe
User ID: 9077913 Sep 9th 11:45 PM
Congrats, JEB. Sounds like a great horn. Have fun.

Lenny
User ID: 0561484 Sep 10th 12:20 AM
There are techs and there are techs!
You should give a nod to the guy who found the leaks.
Congrats

JEB
User ID: 9697893 Sep 10th 9:46 PM
Thanks Joe.

Lenny: yes he was a different sort of tech. Very sentimental about his horns. He told me that he feels sad everytime he sells one of his favorite old vintage horns. He also had a story: some years ago, some guy walked in his store with a sax he wanted to sell. It was an early Mark VI. He did not know its worth and asked that tech if he could get $100 for it. The tech told him that he could not give him $100 but could give him $500. He told me that it would have given him a heartache to see a Mark VI sell for so little, so he had to give him more.

Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 Sep 15th 5:05 AM
You did the right thing JEB, I had a lo A "MKVI" Bari yrs ago.. orig mint Gold Lacquer, no engraving..no MARK VI stamp anywhere..3 independent experts pre-sale all agreed that it WAS a MKVI even sans stamp...Cheers,Cash

ombushaw
User ID: 2261164 Sep 15th 5:30 AM
MBushaw,I've only just got it. Call me slow if you like.
Cheers, Dave

Next 20 Messages

JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 1st 3:05 AM I am not a pro but enjoy playing a lot. I hope my questions are not too trivial. I have been play testing a few altos at a dealer and came upon a Selmer with a 83XXX serial number. It is in very good condition and I really like the sound and keywork. I brought it home on approval. The more I play it the more I like it. The dealer says it is a Mark VI. It does not have Mark IV engraved anywhere. All the engraving on the bell is in french: made in France, Place Dancourt, Paris... There is no serial number on the neck. Also the tenon is of a lighter silverish color which is different from the dark gold lacquer of the rest of the horn. Is all this unusual for a Mark VI? The asking price is $3500. Is this a reasonable price? Thank you
SuperBalanced Psyche User ID: 9656233	Sep 1st 4:08 AM S/N 55201-220800, 1954-1974 (alto & tenor) are mark VI's (from http://www.saxpics.com/selmer/markvi.htm). I don't believe the Selmers have serial #'s on the neck. At least mine doesn't. The engraving in french is normal, and seems to match what is on my horn. If it is in fact a Mark VI, and you like the way it plays I'd say that $3500 is a fine price. Disclaimer- i'm far from an expert...
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 1st 8:56 AM Thanks SuperBalanced Psyche. Played again this morning. I like the sound and the ergonomy. It feels like I don't have to adapt to it, just practice the music. Anyhow. I have a week to compare to the Series III. I will make recordings to better compare. I feel the VI Mark will be my choice, engravings or not. By the way, I like that name: SuperBalanced Psyche (I am a psychiatrist by profession)!
BohoSheets User ID: 1314254	Sep 1st 9:04 AM the different color (different metal alloy) tenon -- i assume you mean the "ring" on the body that receives the neck tenon, is normal. There was some thread around here that discussed that. My 97K tenor has that also. I'm not sure, but perhaps only horns that were shipped/reassembled in the US had serial numbers on the neck ? It does not say "Mark VI" on the bow/bell connector ring? hmm, i thought even the pure french horns had that
saxhorn4 User ID: 8910463	Sep 1st 9:05 AM JEB...i have a 87xxx Alto . It has the matching serial number on the neck but does'nt say mark vi anywhere. My 80xxx and 103xxx have both....strange both...Strange??
Joe User ID: 9077913	Sep 1st 12:06 PM Selmer wasn't real consistent about putting the serial number on the necks and only the US assembled horns have them. It sounds like a VI. However, JEB, you should get the horn to an experienced player/repair tech for a look before buying for other reasons. If it's original finish and in good shape mechanically, $3,500 is a more than fair price. If it's a relacquer and/or needs a lot of action work, $3,500 could be way too high. Have a knowledgeable third party check it out for condition and give you an estimate of its value. $3,500 could be a lot for a horn that's only worth $2,500 (relac) and in need of a $500 overhaul.
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 1st 12:37 PM Thanks BohoSheets. And yes, I meant "ring" on the body that receives the neck tenon. Thanks saxhorn4. Your answer clarifies. If I understand well there seems to have been inconsistancies from Selmer about serial numbers and engraving. Thanks also Joe. It clarifies further. Also, I will follow your advice and get an experienced player and/or tech to check the condition and give an estimate because all I am really going by right now is that I really like the sound of the horn and that it plays very well and in tune. I will give you all a follow-up.
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 3rd 7:56 PM Some follow-up. I had the horn checked by 2 techs. They are pretty sure that it is the original lacquer (from the darker color, engravings and "even edge of the tone holes"). It needed a bit of adjustment which they did for free. Besides that it is in very good condition. I need a last piece of advice before I decide to buy it. I have no problems getting all the notes out except for low C. It gargles or wobbles. No problems with low C#, B or Bb. The techs could not find any leaks. One of the techs thinks it needs to be played for a while because he said that the pads are in good conditions but very dry and will get better as I play. I tested it with a Meyer 5M with Superials 2.5, Nadoren 2.5 and Rico 2.5. Any opinions? I don't think it is my playing as I don't get this problem with a Series III, a JK SX90R or a Couf superba I I have been ocmparing the VI to. But again, I am not a pro. Thanks
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Sep 6th 11:49 AM Curiously low C is my most difficult note on my 181k Mk VI alto. Have you tried another mpce?...
shortwhite User ID: 8868883	Sep 6th 12:32 PM Try dropping the end plug into the bell to stop this gurgling. People have been doing this for years. Let us know if it works GW
Bones User ID: 1307164	Sep 6th 4:01 PM It sounds like a Mark VI originally sold in Europe, or at least not in the U.S. The low gurgles are common on VI alto's. Dropping the end plug or cork down the bell is a common cure. I find that a less resistance mouthpiece set-up also usually solves the problem. Your mouthpiece set-up looks like it should work fairly well, but you might try others.
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 6th 7:43 PM Thanks Steve, Shortwhite, Bones, You guys are amazing! It works! I had almost found a solution by rotating reeds: some reeds caused the low C problems, others didnt. But the end plug solution works with any reed and feels easier. As a non pro, I feel very fortunate to have access to so much experience through STOW. It is now coming to the verdict: between the Couf Superba I (which I own), the Mark VI and Series III on approval. All nice horn with distinctive sounds. Totally subjective I guess. On sound: Couf and Mark VI, a tie; on fun/feel: Mark VI first, Couf then III. Unfortunately, where I live there are not too many good vintage horns around nor any new Yanis to compare with. I will do some more playing and decide before tomorrow when I have to return the horns. Thanks I don't know Thank again
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 8th 1:58 PM Finally bought the Mark VI. Decisive factors were sound and fun/feel factor. Thanks everybody for the advice.
MBushaw User ID: 1390494	Sep 8th 3:50 PM If you are still having problems with the low C#, you may want to try sealing the body-to-bow connection. It's a little harder on the VI because of the removable ring (don't play with that), but could be worth the trouble. The long-term method is to get some silicone sealer and apply to the INSIDE of the horn at the seam, calls for removing a couple of keys for access. You can try a very temporary seal with very thick liquid hand soap or clay or putty or anything that you can put all around the connector (again a little harder because of the removable ring).
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 8th 6:59 PM MBushaw, Thank you for the suggestion. The problem has disappear. Changing read had helped. Finally, as I was closing the deal at the store, the tech who was selling the horn checked it over, changed a few pads and adjusted the low C#. It now blows very easily and evenly without gargle. I think he found a leak that the others had not found. He seemed liked a very experieced tech with about 40 years experience, very sentimental about his horns and a lot of stories to tell. Thanks again
Joe User ID: 9077913	Sep 9th 11:45 PM Congrats, JEB. Sounds like a great horn. Have fun.
Lenny User ID: 0561484	Sep 10th 12:20 AM There are techs and there are techs! You should give a nod to the guy who found the leaks. Congrats
JEB User ID: 9697893	Sep 10th 9:46 PM Thanks Joe. Lenny: yes he was a different sort of tech. Very sentimental about his horns. He told me that he feels sad everytime he sells one of his favorite old vintage horns. He also had a story: some years ago, some guy walked in his store with a sax he wanted to sell. It was an early Mark VI. He did not know its worth and asked that tech if he could get $100 for it. The tech told him that he could not give him $100 but could give him $500. He told me that it would have given him a heartache to see a Mark VI sell for so little, so he had to give him more.
Cashsax User ID: 9014973	Sep 15th 5:05 AM You did the right thing JEB, I had a lo A "MKVI" Bari yrs ago.. orig mint Gold Lacquer, no engraving..no MARK VI stamp anywhere..3 independent experts pre-sale all agreed that it WAS a MKVI even sans stamp...Cheers,Cash
ombushaw User ID: 2261164	Sep 15th 5:30 AM MBushaw,I've only just got it. Call me slow if you like. Cheers, Dave