Sax on the Web Forum

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Selmer copy mystery!

Next 20 Messages

jdumars
User ID: 0269124 Sep 10th 11:57 AM
Scanning eBay for saxes, as I so often do for fun, I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=

905837565

Normally a saxophone with such an odd manufacturer would be chalked up as a cheap clone, but take a good, long look at this sax. To my eye, the only readily obvious differences between this horn and an early Mark VI are the bell and back clothing guards and the name engraved. The smallest details match up, and the entire horn is engraved (quite well I might add) in the European-distributed Selmer style. In all of my travels I have never seen another horn like this, and am postulating that it was made from all Selmer parts. If so, it may qualify as the best deal ever on a Mark VI tenor. :) Anyone else have any comments or ideas? Is this an exact replica? Was it a prototype? Who made it?

I love a good sax mystery... and perhaps the other sax sleuths out there can solve it.

Jack
User ID: 8562343 Sep 10th 12:09 PM
I see you bought the horn, with a buy it now. As an expert, I hoped you informed the seller that it might be a valuable horn.

saxpics
User ID: 9454293 Sep 10th 12:17 PM
Well, you seem to have bought it ...

The bell keys don't seem quite right: the toneholes might be closer together or they're slightly larger. Could also be the keyguards are just bigger or the camera angle is odd.

I don't see the Selmer "fluidtight" connector between body and bow that the VI has. Doesn't mean it's not there, just that I can't see it.

It does appear to have the "hinged" G# cluster, though. I know that's patented by Selmer, so you've got support for the argument that this is a horn that Selmer used to export to the countries listed on the horn's bell, via McLean & Payne.

The best hits I could get on Google that incorporates "Mclean", "Payne", and "sax" is in regard to Jackie McLean and Cecil Payne. Might be a lead.

You might want to check the USPTO and see if "McLean and Payne Musical Instruments" is listed someplace. I doubt if they'll be in the New Langwill index (too new).

Try it out and tell us how it compares to your other horns!

jdumars
User ID: 0269124 Sep 10th 12:34 PM
No, I didn't inform the seller, because there is no conclusive evidence that it is Selmer. Any definitely identifying marks such as patent numbers, manufacturer names or otherwise are missing which makes the purchase a very big gamble on my part. If it is a copy it is worth what I paid or less, so raising the possibility of it being more valuable serves absolutely no purpose. If it is made of Selmer parts, it is still not a Mark VI and cannot be sold as one, it's merely a curiosity for myself and any future owner. I have absolutely no moral qualms with keeping my speculation to myself, since as an expert, I cannot identify the horn.

jdumars
User ID: 0269124 Sep 10th 12:39 PM
Yeah, once I get it, I'll post a follow-up. There is a very good possibility that it was a copy made as an experiment by another manufacturer, to see if a salable Mark VI copy was possible. I noticed the connector thing too, and wondered if it was an aspect of the photography. I decided to buy it since it was cheap enough to make a gamble on. Whoever made the horn made sure there was no blatant plagiarization of Selmer trademarks, so I doubt Selmer Paris had anything officially to do with it. My personal hope is for a great playing tenor!

Jack
User ID: 8562343 Sep 10th 12:51 PM
I see your point. "A real big gamble" I think thats a stretch especially when it comes with that nice metal mouthpiece. Good luck with the horn.

jdumars
User ID: 0269124 Sep 10th 1:58 PM
I don't know if I consider the Brilhart much of a prize, especially since the plastic bite plate has nearly been chomped through. Some of them play well, but I could never get used to the tall beak. I always felt like I was playing one of those wooden "train whistles."

I have been researching the names to no avail. The mystery still remains.

MBushaw
User ID: 9133663 Sep 10th 7:08 PM
I know a high school student that is looking for a Brilhart Level air tenor piece(special-use for a few rock tunes). So if you want to sell it (and re-coup some of your investment!) let me know.
mbushaw@aol.com
Odd that the bell to bow and body to bow rings use the selmer S scroll in their design.
We have heard reports of Asian MkVI copies that were near-perfect... seems like it would cost more than it was worth to go to that level of detail though.
Hope it plays as good as it looks!

jdumars
User ID: 9384353 Sep 10th 9:06 PM
Here's an update on the continuing saga of the unknown horn... it appears that 3 SOTW readers took the liberty of writing to the seller warning him not to sell it to me. Here's the transcript:

--- ttestates wrote:
> Jason, I don't know much about the sax. But below
> is one of 3 emails I
> received from other ebayers obout you.
>
>
> Your buyer is an expert on saxes I believe your
> instrument is worth 3000 to
> 5000 dollars This is what he posted on a discussion
> forum called sax on the
> web Have this sax appraised before you sell it

I appreciate that people are trying to be ethical and not take advantage of someone who doesn't know what they have, but this seems out of line to me. As far as I know, NO Selmer Paris horn was ever released from the factory without their name stamped on it. Even the oddball horns that they denied making (like the curved Mark VI soprano) had all the proper markings. This horn is exactly what I originally indicated... either a very good copy or made from spare, unmarked Selmer parts. In either case, no one would be able to sell it as a Selmer Paris sax. It simply isn't. It's hard enough to convince people of other stencils such as the Armstrong/Keilwerths or Yamaha/Vitos, but to call this horn a $3000 Mark VI is absolutely bonkers. Another point of contention here is that I am not buying this sax as a "Scoop" so I can turn around and sell it for big money. I bought it because I cannot afford a VI, and because of my job situation had to sell off nearly all of my good horns. If the seller backs out of the deal, absolutely no one is benefitting from this, and he will likely waste time and money trying to relist a horn that no one will buy for more than I paid. If the horn is a copy, I still assert that I paid more than it was worth, even with the Brilhart. There are dozens of brand new saxes on the market that have new pads and no wear for the same (or less) amount of money. It is also clear from the pictures that the sax has some damage and needs new pads.

I hate to go on and on about this, but I am really frustrated that people took it upon themselves to try and convince the seller that his horn was worth more than he was selling it for, and back out of a legally binding contract to sell it. The subject of this thread is not: "Great eBay scoop"... it's me seeking information about a Selmer copy. If you were one of the three people, I encourage you to respond.

Lenny
User ID: 0561484 Sep 10th 9:22 PM
It seems like alot of people on this forum think that being in business is somehow ethically wrong. I'm not in the music business in any way, but I am an adult. When I was younger I probably had a bit more of that attitude but as I matured I realized that business requires making a profit. Buy low sell high. There's nothing wrong with it. It makes the world go round and driving perfectly ethical businessmen off this forum will ruin it and leave no one but the morons who pushed them off.

Frank
User ID: 0624334 Sep 10th 9:32 PM
Jason,

This is just another example of people who have no business getting involved, coming to the "rescue" and try to save the "poor unknowing seller". For all we know, this seller may have gotten this sax for peanuts or as part of a lot of goods. It could be pure profit for the seller.

If we all knew just how little half of the sellers who buy up estates had invested in the horns that they sell, while claiming to know nothing about saxaphones but, "It has the nail file g#, rolled tone holes, etc., etc., ...but I don't really know." Meanwhile, they are asking market price more often than not.
Do you believe that these estate buyers are telling a grieving widow or surviving children " no, no, that is worth much more, let me give you double your asking price." Give me a break.

Jason's only crime was posting the info here for the high and mighty moral supermen to save the day. Do yourself a favor Jason, next time you want to take a gamble, keep it to yourself and save yourself a lot of trouble.
Can't you just see all of the collectors knocking your down your door to fork over $3000 for the sax with the genuine autographed key cups? And Levelaires have gone for as little as fifty or sixty dollars on ebay.

blessedsax
User ID: 9649143 Sep 10th 9:45 PM
Jason, you certainly didn't deserve this!

Cards must be kept close to the vest as this forum is crawling with lower life forms as of late.

The more popular this forum becomes, the worse the hangers on. It's a d@mN shame. Maybe one day there will be a forum where the particpants must maintain a maturity level of an adult and not just having access to a pc. I suspect many more will leave before there is an improvement in mature clientel! There is way to much disrepecting of people around here.

J.Reb
User ID: 7859123 Sep 10th 10:05 PM
Jason, the seller should be willing to copy you on the emails, then you will have them redhanded.

saxpics
User ID: 9454293 Sep 10th 11:32 PM
I concur: jdumars is getting a bum rap.

I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about saxophones (I've only been doing research for sevenish years :), and if the seller sent me an e-mail about the horn before posting it on eBay, I would have said, "Never heard of it. It's possible that the horn is a Selmer that was sold through an importer, but I doubt it. If you'd like, send me pictures and I'll make a 1-to-1 comparision with the VI and tell you the similarities and differences. Until then, I'm gonna call it a Selmer copy worth no more than an Amati 61 tenor."

Note that it says "Let the Buyer beware (caveat emptor)" on eBay. If you're gonna sell something on eBay, shouldn't you do SOME basic research on the thing?

Anyhow, if the seller gives you flak, Jason, tell eBay. Remember: "Your bid is a contract" probably has a seller equivalent.

However, next time, wait to post until you get the horn, I suppose :/

J.Reb
User ID: 7859123 Sep 11th 12:44 AM
Yes saxpics, but he shouldn't have to. Three guys in here evidentally tried to queer the deal. Be nice for Jason to have their names, he owes them an attitude adjustment.

saxpics
Moderator
User ID: 9454293 Sep 11th 12:47 AM
I agree completely. U wan' me to bust 'em up fo ya, Jason?

(Sorry, that's Paul C.'s thread :)

jdumars
User ID: 9384353 Sep 11th 1:27 AM
hahaha ya Rocco... go bussum heads... :)

this story gets even better. I got an e-mail from the guy:

-------
Jason, I am true to my word. If the sax is worth $5,000, good for you, it's my mistake for not putting more effort into trying to detect what it is before listing it. I have had 2 offers for it since last night, one was for $1800.00. You won it, you're getting it. If it turns out to be
something very special, and you make a mint on it, your more then welcomed to throw me
some $, lol.
--------

I wish more eBay people had the integrity of this guy! It's clear now that the people who were "warning" him were actually out to buy what they thought was a Mark VI for cheap. I promised him that if I sold it for a profit, I'd give him his fair share, and I will. My gut tells me it'll either be a great horn or a total clunker. We'll see soon enough.

Thanks you guys for being so supportive. It's such an irony because over the years I have received over 1,000 e-mails thanking me for my buyer's guide and helping people make smart horn choices. If there was anyone in the world least likely to screw someone out of money, it'd be me. It's pretty sad that people on here tried to manipulate the situation for their own gain.

saxpics
User ID: 9454293 Sep 11th 1:33 AM
I'm glad it worked out. When you get the horn, I will personally post good feedback for the guy on eBay (save the ad!). You'd better post, too, even if the horn's junk!

I also think it's nice of you to say that you'll split the difference if it really is some sort of "Selmer Import Special" horn. Not required, but pretty nice.

On a completely different topic, how'd the engraving thing go? Any takers? (You can just e-mail me, if you'd rather. I just can't find the other thread at the moment :)

Take care!
Pete
saxpics@hotmail.com

J.Reb
User ID: 7859123 Sep 11th 8:41 AM
Well that worked out in the best possible way. You get the horn, the seller is foursquare, and those three punks are looking sickly with a furtive casting look in their eyes...wondering forever who knows what...

blessedsax
User ID: 9649143 Sep 11th 8:52 AM
Glad everything worked out for you,Jason.
Please make the names of the three cretins available.

That's one sure way to stop this kinda crap, "Out them" for the scurrilous vermin they are.

Maybe if their mommas' see what they've done, she'll run out from under the porch and bite the them where you otta kick 'em.

Next 20 Messages

jdumars User ID: 0269124	Sep 10th 11:57 AM Scanning eBay for saxes, as I so often do for fun, I found this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item= 905837565 Normally a saxophone with such an odd manufacturer would be chalked up as a cheap clone, but take a good, long look at this sax. To my eye, the only readily obvious differences between this horn and an early Mark VI are the bell and back clothing guards and the name engraved. The smallest details match up, and the entire horn is engraved (quite well I might add) in the European-distributed Selmer style. In all of my travels I have never seen another horn like this, and am postulating that it was made from all Selmer parts. If so, it may qualify as the best deal ever on a Mark VI tenor. :) Anyone else have any comments or ideas? Is this an exact replica? Was it a prototype? Who made it? I love a good sax mystery... and perhaps the other sax sleuths out there can solve it.
Jack User ID: 8562343	Sep 10th 12:09 PM I see you bought the horn, with a buy it now. As an expert, I hoped you informed the seller that it might be a valuable horn.
saxpics User ID: 9454293	Sep 10th 12:17 PM Well, you seem to have bought it ... The bell keys don't seem quite right: the toneholes might be closer together or they're slightly larger. Could also be the keyguards are just bigger or the camera angle is odd. I don't see the Selmer "fluidtight" connector between body and bow that the VI has. Doesn't mean it's not there, just that I can't see it. It does appear to have the "hinged" G# cluster, though. I know that's patented by Selmer, so you've got support for the argument that this is a horn that Selmer used to export to the countries listed on the horn's bell, via McLean & Payne. The best hits I could get on Google that incorporates "Mclean", "Payne", and "sax" is in regard to Jackie McLean and Cecil Payne. Might be a lead. You might want to check the USPTO and see if "McLean and Payne Musical Instruments" is listed someplace. I doubt if they'll be in the New Langwill index (too new). Try it out and tell us how it compares to your other horns!
jdumars User ID: 0269124	Sep 10th 12:34 PM No, I didn't inform the seller, because there is no conclusive evidence that it is Selmer. Any definitely identifying marks such as patent numbers, manufacturer names or otherwise are missing which makes the purchase a very big gamble on my part. If it is a copy it is worth what I paid or less, so raising the possibility of it being more valuable serves absolutely no purpose. If it is made of Selmer parts, it is still not a Mark VI and cannot be sold as one, it's merely a curiosity for myself and any future owner. I have absolutely no moral qualms with keeping my speculation to myself, since as an expert, I cannot identify the horn.
jdumars User ID: 0269124	Sep 10th 12:39 PM Yeah, once I get it, I'll post a follow-up. There is a very good possibility that it was a copy made as an experiment by another manufacturer, to see if a salable Mark VI copy was possible. I noticed the connector thing too, and wondered if it was an aspect of the photography. I decided to buy it since it was cheap enough to make a gamble on. Whoever made the horn made sure there was no blatant plagiarization of Selmer trademarks, so I doubt Selmer Paris had anything officially to do with it. My personal hope is for a great playing tenor!
Jack User ID: 8562343	Sep 10th 12:51 PM I see your point. "A real big gamble" I think thats a stretch especially when it comes with that nice metal mouthpiece. Good luck with the horn.
jdumars User ID: 0269124	Sep 10th 1:58 PM I don't know if I consider the Brilhart much of a prize, especially since the plastic bite plate has nearly been chomped through. Some of them play well, but I could never get used to the tall beak. I always felt like I was playing one of those wooden "train whistles." I have been researching the names to no avail. The mystery still remains.
MBushaw User ID: 9133663	Sep 10th 7:08 PM I know a high school student that is looking for a Brilhart Level air tenor piece(special-use for a few rock tunes). So if you want to sell it (and re-coup some of your investment!) let me know. mbushaw@aol.com Odd that the bell to bow and body to bow rings use the selmer S scroll in their design. We have heard reports of Asian MkVI copies that were near-perfect... seems like it would cost more than it was worth to go to that level of detail though. Hope it plays as good as it looks!
jdumars User ID: 9384353	Sep 10th 9:06 PM Here's an update on the continuing saga of the unknown horn... it appears that 3 SOTW readers took the liberty of writing to the seller warning him not to sell it to me. Here's the transcript: --- ttestates wrote: > Jason, I don't know much about the sax. But below > is one of 3 emails I > received from other ebayers obout you. > > > Your buyer is an expert on saxes I believe your > instrument is worth 3000 to > 5000 dollars This is what he posted on a discussion > forum called sax on the > web Have this sax appraised before you sell it I appreciate that people are trying to be ethical and not take advantage of someone who doesn't know what they have, but this seems out of line to me. As far as I know, NO Selmer Paris horn was ever released from the factory without their name stamped on it. Even the oddball horns that they denied making (like the curved Mark VI soprano) had all the proper markings. This horn is exactly what I originally indicated... either a very good copy or made from spare, unmarked Selmer parts. In either case, no one would be able to sell it as a Selmer Paris sax. It simply isn't. It's hard enough to convince people of other stencils such as the Armstrong/Keilwerths or Yamaha/Vitos, but to call this horn a $3000 Mark VI is absolutely bonkers. Another point of contention here is that I am not buying this sax as a "Scoop" so I can turn around and sell it for big money. I bought it because I cannot afford a VI, and because of my job situation had to sell off nearly all of my good horns. If the seller backs out of the deal, absolutely no one is benefitting from this, and he will likely waste time and money trying to relist a horn that no one will buy for more than I paid. If the horn is a copy, I still assert that I paid more than it was worth, even with the Brilhart. There are dozens of brand new saxes on the market that have new pads and no wear for the same (or less) amount of money. It is also clear from the pictures that the sax has some damage and needs new pads. I hate to go on and on about this, but I am really frustrated that people took it upon themselves to try and convince the seller that his horn was worth more than he was selling it for, and back out of a legally binding contract to sell it. The subject of this thread is not: "Great eBay scoop"... it's me seeking information about a Selmer copy. If you were one of the three people, I encourage you to respond.
Lenny User ID: 0561484	Sep 10th 9:22 PM It seems like alot of people on this forum think that being in business is somehow ethically wrong. I'm not in the music business in any way, but I am an adult. When I was younger I probably had a bit more of that attitude but as I matured I realized that business requires making a profit. Buy low sell high. There's nothing wrong with it. It makes the world go round and driving perfectly ethical businessmen off this forum will ruin it and leave no one but the morons who pushed them off.
Frank User ID: 0624334	Sep 10th 9:32 PM Jason, This is just another example of people who have no business getting involved, coming to the "rescue" and try to save the "poor unknowing seller". For all we know, this seller may have gotten this sax for peanuts or as part of a lot of goods. It could be pure profit for the seller. If we all knew just how little half of the sellers who buy up estates had invested in the horns that they sell, while claiming to know nothing about saxaphones but, "It has the nail file g#, rolled tone holes, etc., etc., ...but I don't really know." Meanwhile, they are asking market price more often than not. Do you believe that these estate buyers are telling a grieving widow or surviving children " no, no, that is worth much more, let me give you double your asking price." Give me a break. Jason's only crime was posting the info here for the high and mighty moral supermen to save the day. Do yourself a favor Jason, next time you want to take a gamble, keep it to yourself and save yourself a lot of trouble. Can't you just see all of the collectors knocking your down your door to fork over $3000 for the sax with the genuine autographed key cups? And Levelaires have gone for as little as fifty or sixty dollars on ebay.
blessedsax User ID: 9649143	Sep 10th 9:45 PM Jason, you certainly didn't deserve this! Cards must be kept close to the vest as this forum is crawling with lower life forms as of late. The more popular this forum becomes, the worse the hangers on. It's a d@mN shame. Maybe one day there will be a forum where the particpants must maintain a maturity level of an adult and not just having access to a pc. I suspect many more will leave before there is an improvement in mature clientel! There is way to much disrepecting of people around here.
J.Reb User ID: 7859123	Sep 10th 10:05 PM Jason, the seller should be willing to copy you on the emails, then you will have them redhanded.
saxpics User ID: 9454293	Sep 10th 11:32 PM I concur: jdumars is getting a bum rap. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about saxophones (I've only been doing research for sevenish years :), and if the seller sent me an e-mail about the horn before posting it on eBay, I would have said, "Never heard of it. It's possible that the horn is a Selmer that was sold through an importer, but I doubt it. If you'd like, send me pictures and I'll make a 1-to-1 comparision with the VI and tell you the similarities and differences. Until then, I'm gonna call it a Selmer copy worth no more than an Amati 61 tenor." Note that it says "Let the Buyer beware (caveat emptor)" on eBay. If you're gonna sell something on eBay, shouldn't you do SOME basic research on the thing? Anyhow, if the seller gives you flak, Jason, tell eBay. Remember: "Your bid is a contract" probably has a seller equivalent. However, next time, wait to post until you get the horn, I suppose :/
J.Reb User ID: 7859123	Sep 11th 12:44 AM Yes saxpics, but he shouldn't have to. Three guys in here evidentally tried to queer the deal. Be nice for Jason to have their names, he owes them an attitude adjustment.
saxpics Moderator User ID: 9454293	Sep 11th 12:47 AM I agree completely. U wan' me to bust 'em up fo ya, Jason? (Sorry, that's Paul C.'s thread :)
jdumars User ID: 9384353	Sep 11th 1:27 AM hahaha ya Rocco... go bussum heads... :) this story gets even better. I got an e-mail from the guy: ------- Jason, I am true to my word. If the sax is worth $5,000, good for you, it's my mistake for not putting more effort into trying to detect what it is before listing it. I have had 2 offers for it since last night, one was for $1800.00. You won it, you're getting it. If it turns out to be something very special, and you make a mint on it, your more then welcomed to throw me some $, lol. -------- I wish more eBay people had the integrity of this guy! It's clear now that the people who were "warning" him were actually out to buy what they thought was a Mark VI for cheap. I promised him that if I sold it for a profit, I'd give him his fair share, and I will. My gut tells me it'll either be a great horn or a total clunker. We'll see soon enough. Thanks you guys for being so supportive. It's such an irony because over the years I have received over 1,000 e-mails thanking me for my buyer's guide and helping people make smart horn choices. If there was anyone in the world least likely to screw someone out of money, it'd be me. It's pretty sad that people on here tried to manipulate the situation for their own gain.
saxpics User ID: 9454293	Sep 11th 1:33 AM I'm glad it worked out. When you get the horn, I will personally post good feedback for the guy on eBay (save the ad!). You'd better post, too, even if the horn's junk! I also think it's nice of you to say that you'll split the difference if it really is some sort of "Selmer Import Special" horn. Not required, but pretty nice. On a completely different topic, how'd the engraving thing go? Any takers? (You can just e-mail me, if you'd rather. I just can't find the other thread at the moment :) Take care! Pete saxpics@hotmail.com
J.Reb User ID: 7859123	Sep 11th 8:41 AM Well that worked out in the best possible way. You get the horn, the seller is foursquare, and those three punks are looking sickly with a furtive casting look in their eyes...wondering forever who knows what...
blessedsax User ID: 9649143	Sep 11th 8:52 AM Glad everything worked out for you,Jason. Please make the names of the three cretins available. That's one sure way to stop this kinda crap, "Out them" for the scurrilous vermin they are. Maybe if their mommas' see what they've done, she'll run out from under the porch and bite the them where you otta kick 'em.