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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Mark VI & High F# key

JC
User ID: 2713794 Sep 22nd 11:12 AM
May I know start from what series no for Mark VI (both alto & tenor) has the high F# key? Does all Mark VI with high F# was made in Paris?

Bari Martin
User ID: 8492403 Sep 22nd 11:33 AM
There is no particular serial number for Mk VI saxes with high F# - they just made some with high F# and some without, depending on dealer orders and sales trends. All Selmer Paris saxophones are and were made in Paris.

STEVE GOODSON
User ID: 9725373 Sep 22nd 11:40 AM
When I got my first Mk VI (in 1964), the F# key was optional, and I recall that it added significantly to the cost of the instrument. I have seen a 56,000 VI with this key, and I understand that it was also seen on some of the SBA series. Maybe our moderator knows the specifics. He's a much better historian than I am!

beezer
User ID: 2261164 Sep 22nd 5:43 PM
I had a 59xxx tenor wth top f#. SP too.
Cheers, Dave

rollen
User ID: 9781133 Sep 23rd 2:21 PM
This is from an old Selmer brochure. Not sure of the age.

Model No. 54
In Vanguard Tra-Pack Case $650
In Airo Tra-Pack Case $640
In Airo Single Case $620

No. 54F - No. 54 Saxophone with high F# key and tone hole for a true high F#
In Vanguard Tra-Pack Case $680
In Airo Tra-Pack Case $670
In Airo Single Case $650

John T.
User ID: 8506593 Sep 23rd 2:49 PM
Those List Prices sound Late 60's to me.

amasax
User ID: 8994583 Sep 23rd 3:13 PM
I have some Selmer U.S. catalogs from early 1950s-mid or late 1960's, in which:

* In the US, F# was not advertised as an option until around 1951 or(as memory serves), so is a bit uncommon to find Super Balanced horns from the US with it, as no one knew about it. Most of the SBA altos having an F# with serial numbers in the 3x,xxx-49,999 range(these would have been made in the late 1940s) that I've encountered were Euro horns, where I guess it was better known as an available option. Btw, the Euro horns play the same as U.S., so nothing plus/minus here, usually just different or no engraving on the Euro stuff.

* Ordering an F# key typically added $30 to the list price, so it was not all that expensive. However, common attitude in the U.S. well up into the 1970s was that F# was not needed all that much, so was often overlooked. Plus, dealers didn't have any particular reason to want to order these, just as they never seemed to stock plated finishes.

* I've not seen a Balanced Action tenor with F#, but I have seen(owned it for a while) exactly one Balanced Action alto with an F#. Different key work than the modern implementation, but a true F# tone hole. I suspect that to get an F# on anything earlier than an SBA horn, one probably had to specially request it directly from Selmer.

steve
User ID: 0283314 Sep 23rd 3:39 PM
Paid $650 for my VI tenor with the F# key and single case...99XXX ( 1962), so rollen's brochure sounds early 60's to me.

rollen
User ID: 9781133 Sep 23rd 4:10 PM
Don't forget those prices are Selmer's Suggested Retail. Horns usually sold for less. It may be from the 50's

Paul C.
User ID: 9050343 Sep 23rd 8:10 PM
Selmer's 1968 US catalog listed the Mk VI tenor at $745.

SAXGOURMET
User ID: 9725373 Sep 23rd 9:27 PM
When i got my first one (1964), list price was $660. The high F# key was an additional $60 (? I think), the Samsonite made tri-pak case was $90. My teacher advised against the F#, saying that I could already produce a satisfactory one using the fingerings that Selmer had put out as suggested for the Mk VI. The first Mk VI alto I got (1966) did have the F#. I never really liked that horn much. I looked for years for a low A MkVI alto without the F#, finally found one about three years ago. I have always thought that the high F# on MkVI horns was a bad thing. If I've done my math right, the high F# tone hole is at a node of low B, and I have always believed that it contributed to the difficulty of producing that note consistantly. I have the F# tone hole sealed (from the bottom, not the top!) on the first alto I mentioned, and I think it did improve the horn. I've also disabled it for a couple of clients, and they agree that it is a step in the right direction. The F# key on Selmers was an afterthought. No allowance was made in the bore diameter. Of course, when the F# became standard on later horns, this was addressed. A small detail, but an important one.

BTW, there has been some mention of Selmer cataogs in this thread. I would REALLY like to have some scans if they are available. Please send to steveg@saxgourmet.com

TIA

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Sep 23rd 9:34 PM
Steve (SAXGOURMET),
Can you give the recommended F# fingering for a VI alto?

Cars

Lenny
User ID: 0561484 Sep 24th 2:06 PM
I had a 179xxx VI Tenor with an F# and now have a 67xxx that doesn't have one and I prefer the 67 But I find G3 harder than on the horn with the F# key - F# however is fine.

SAXGOURMET
User ID: 9725373 Sep 24th 2:53 PM
The G3 is most likely difficult becuase the bore is in effect larger are a result of the F# tone hole.

Lenny
User ID: 0561484 Sep 24th 5:35 PM
Actually I mispoke - Its harder on the one without the F# key!

amasax
User ID: 9510053 Sep 25th 2:23 PM
Steve G., i don't have access to a scanner, so no go on the catalog scans...if i get access down the road, maybe i can get you something then, as they are fascinating to look at...

Funny about that F#/nodal thing, as I've never had a problem with low B on an F# horn, if the horn was decently setup...never could tell any diff between F# & non-F# horns...as a consequence, i've always tried to get the vintage stuff with F#(which on Selmers, usually means you can only go back to Super Balanced and find these). I also like to use the F# for altissimo(especially 'G'), so they do come in handy.

George Briscoe
User ID: 9161143 Oct 15th 3:21 PM
My #94k tenor has the high F#. It is harder to subtone a low B than on my #233k without the high F# key. On the other hand, the high F# (on the #94) just SCREAMS as well as the other high notes and has a much clearer tone than the later horn which has to use the altissimo fingering. They're both good set ups, but they're just different.

rollen
User ID: 8924643 Oct 15th 8:47 PM
$30 in 1960 equates to about $180 in 2001 dollars. Would have done 2002, but the site I found only calculated up to 2001.

JC User ID: 2713794	Sep 22nd 11:12 AM May I know start from what series no for Mark VI (both alto & tenor) has the high F# key? Does all Mark VI with high F# was made in Paris?
Bari Martin User ID: 8492403	Sep 22nd 11:33 AM There is no particular serial number for Mk VI saxes with high F# - they just made some with high F# and some without, depending on dealer orders and sales trends. All Selmer Paris saxophones are and were made in Paris.
STEVE GOODSON User ID: 9725373	Sep 22nd 11:40 AM When I got my first Mk VI (in 1964), the F# key was optional, and I recall that it added significantly to the cost of the instrument. I have seen a 56,000 VI with this key, and I understand that it was also seen on some of the SBA series. Maybe our moderator knows the specifics. He's a much better historian than I am!
beezer User ID: 2261164	Sep 22nd 5:43 PM I had a 59xxx tenor wth top f#. SP too. Cheers, Dave
rollen User ID: 9781133	Sep 23rd 2:21 PM This is from an old Selmer brochure. Not sure of the age. Model No. 54 In Vanguard Tra-Pack Case $650 In Airo Tra-Pack Case $640 In Airo Single Case $620 No. 54F - No. 54 Saxophone with high F# key and tone hole for a true high F# In Vanguard Tra-Pack Case $680 In Airo Tra-Pack Case $670 In Airo Single Case $650
John T. User ID: 8506593	Sep 23rd 2:49 PM Those List Prices sound Late 60's to me.
amasax User ID: 8994583	Sep 23rd 3:13 PM I have some Selmer U.S. catalogs from early 1950s-mid or late 1960's, in which: * In the US, F# was not advertised as an option until around 1951 or(as memory serves), so is a bit uncommon to find Super Balanced horns from the US with it, as no one knew about it. Most of the SBA altos having an F# with serial numbers in the 3x,xxx-49,999 range(these would have been made in the late 1940s) that I've encountered were Euro horns, where I guess it was better known as an available option. Btw, the Euro horns play the same as U.S., so nothing plus/minus here, usually just different or no engraving on the Euro stuff. * Ordering an F# key typically added $30 to the list price, so it was not all that expensive. However, common attitude in the U.S. well up into the 1970s was that F# was not needed all that much, so was often overlooked. Plus, dealers didn't have any particular reason to want to order these, just as they never seemed to stock plated finishes. * I've not seen a Balanced Action tenor with F#, but I have seen(owned it for a while) exactly one Balanced Action alto with an F#. Different key work than the modern implementation, but a true F# tone hole. I suspect that to get an F# on anything earlier than an SBA horn, one probably had to specially request it directly from Selmer.
steve User ID: 0283314	Sep 23rd 3:39 PM Paid $650 for my VI tenor with the F# key and single case...99XXX ( 1962), so rollen's brochure sounds early 60's to me.
rollen User ID: 9781133	Sep 23rd 4:10 PM Don't forget those prices are Selmer's Suggested Retail. Horns usually sold for less. It may be from the 50's
Paul C. User ID: 9050343	Sep 23rd 8:10 PM Selmer's 1968 US catalog listed the Mk VI tenor at $745.
SAXGOURMET User ID: 9725373	Sep 23rd 9:27 PM When i got my first one (1964), list price was $660. The high F# key was an additional $60 (? I think), the Samsonite made tri-pak case was $90. My teacher advised against the F#, saying that I could already produce a satisfactory one using the fingerings that Selmer had put out as suggested for the Mk VI. The first Mk VI alto I got (1966) did have the F#. I never really liked that horn much. I looked for years for a low A MkVI alto without the F#, finally found one about three years ago. I have always thought that the high F# on MkVI horns was a bad thing. If I've done my math right, the high F# tone hole is at a node of low B, and I have always believed that it contributed to the difficulty of producing that note consistantly. I have the F# tone hole sealed (from the bottom, not the top!) on the first alto I mentioned, and I think it did improve the horn. I've also disabled it for a couple of clients, and they agree that it is a step in the right direction. The F# key on Selmers was an afterthought. No allowance was made in the bore diameter. Of course, when the F# became standard on later horns, this was addressed. A small detail, but an important one. BTW, there has been some mention of Selmer cataogs in this thread. I would REALLY like to have some scans if they are available. Please send to steveg@saxgourmet.com TIA
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Sep 23rd 9:34 PM Steve (SAXGOURMET), Can you give the recommended F# fingering for a VI alto? Cars
Lenny User ID: 0561484	Sep 24th 2:06 PM I had a 179xxx VI Tenor with an F# and now have a 67xxx that doesn't have one and I prefer the 67 But I find G3 harder than on the horn with the F# key - F# however is fine.
SAXGOURMET User ID: 9725373	Sep 24th 2:53 PM The G3 is most likely difficult becuase the bore is in effect larger are a result of the F# tone hole.
Lenny User ID: 0561484	Sep 24th 5:35 PM Actually I mispoke - Its harder on the one without the F# key!
amasax User ID: 9510053	Sep 25th 2:23 PM Steve G., i don't have access to a scanner, so no go on the catalog scans...if i get access down the road, maybe i can get you something then, as they are fascinating to look at... Funny about that F#/nodal thing, as I've never had a problem with low B on an F# horn, if the horn was decently setup...never could tell any diff between F# & non-F# horns...as a consequence, i've always tried to get the vintage stuff with F#(which on Selmers, usually means you can only go back to Super Balanced and find these). I also like to use the F# for altissimo(especially 'G'), so they do come in handy.
George Briscoe User ID: 9161143	Oct 15th 3:21 PM My #94k tenor has the high F#. It is harder to subtone a low B than on my #233k without the high F# key. On the other hand, the high F# (on the #94) just SCREAMS as well as the other high notes and has a much clearer tone than the later horn which has to use the altissimo fingering. They're both good set ups, but they're just different.
rollen User ID: 8924643	Oct 15th 8:47 PM $30 in 1960 equates to about $180 in 2001 dollars. Would have done 2002, but the site I found only calculated up to 2001.