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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Mk VII "M" series with a VI bore?

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Randall
User ID: 0178794 May 23rd 12:46 AM
I have read here about MK VII's (early ones) in the "m" series that had a MK VI bore...is this verifiable and if so, what are the serial numbers for these horns?
Also, are the necks in fact marked with the round globe mark like a MK VI?
Did they make them in France or the US or both?
Thanks for your help...

danm
User ID: 9635043 May 23rd 8:26 AM
Well I have a silver low number MKVII alto and it has an M serial number. It also has the MKVI G# cluster and not the MKVII one.Some have the globe VI neck and some have the 7 neck. Mine has the 7 neck however. I had heard that the newer ones have an N in the serial number like the current serie II numbers. I do not think any were made in the US as far as I know. At one time on this board I read that the MKVII with the M serial number were infact the MKVI body tube. I think this came from Ralph Morgan when he worked for Selmer in those days.Mine plays like all of the MKVI's that I have tried. I however do not know how the newer ones play nor have I played a tenor yet.

Randall
User ID: 0178794 May 23rd 6:33 PM
Thanks for the info Dan..any idea of approximate serial numbers on these?
My old MK VII tenor had a serial number around 276,000 and the "m" too but it surely didn't play like a VI, although it was a fine horn! It had the M7 neck and no engraving.
I bought it from the now defunct Dorn & Kirshner back in the late seventies for $1,000.00 even.....

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 24th 12:14 AM
All Selmer Paris horns are made in France. Selmer USA imports them. They use to assemble, engrave and lacquer the VI's and VII's here, but the horns are all manufactured in France. The M ser no. horns have the VI body tube, with stronger bracing; the spatula, table key mechanism was strenghened, and some of the other keywork changed. It's a little heavier. Some of the early ones came with VI necks. My alto 255xxx has the flower engraving, dark gold lacquer and came with a M7 neck; however, I have a VI neck for it. The earlier altos are very fine horns and play/sound very much like late VI's. I would assume the same of the early tenors except for the neck. Selmer changed the neck angle of the VII tenors, and many players didn't like that, not to mention the different keywork. When they ran out of the VI body tubes Selmer started using a newer tube with an N before the ser. no. probably in late '77 or '78. Horns above 277xxx generally were not engraved. I personally think the earlier VII's were excellent horns; the later ones vary somewhat. However, there are some very good ones to be found in the later ones. I think Steve Goodson put it very well when he said "the Mark VI was an impossible act to follow".....the VII never stood a chance having to follow the VI, even though it's a very good horn. I don't think the majority of the VI players will ever acknowledge any newer model, Selmer or otherwise, to be as good or better than the VI......old habits die hard. My VII alto has that rich, lush Selmer tone/sound. The tone is why I bought it.

Randall
User ID: 0178794 May 25th 11:51 PM
Thanks Alan... BTW, I'll acknowledge it! I traded my VI for a 54 and I haven't looked back!
The 54 is superb in every way for me.

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 26th 12:38 AM
You're in the minority I think. There's a young guy in the Wind symphony with me that plays a Ref 54 tenor....sounds really good. It would sound awesome if he would get rid of that sq. chamber S80 C*. I'm looking forward to the new Ref 54 altos, suppose to be out in 2003.

danm
User ID: 9523443 May 26th 7:33 AM
Alan tell that guy that plays the 54 that that newer C* makes a great door stop and will keep your door open in all winds! Just kidding.I did like you and gave mine away to the local HS kids and they love them. By the way that New Selmer D Soloist I have for tenor is working out fine. Nice tone. Now I want to find a tenor that plays and sounds as good as my alto! I am going to try a few 6's a ref and a Serie III.

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 26th 11:20 PM
A tenor that sounds as good as your silver VII alto may be hard to find without spending a lot. I did suggest to the kid with the 54 tenor he ought to try a super tonemaster; he looked at me like I was crazy. (that's beside the point)

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 27th 3:58 AM
danm, I just remembered.....there's a later silver VII tenor on ebay, time close to running out; think the bids up to about 1134 in case you might be interested. Don't know much about VII tenors. If I were going to buy a tenor I might look into a King Super 20 (really nice one).

danm
User ID: 1258494 May 27th 3:44 PM
Well Alan I was high bidder at $1300.00 on that Tenor but I did not meet reserve. Oh well!

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 27th 11:19 PM
Bummer! It sho looked like a nice one. Seller wouldn't take $1300? Oh well, there's always that $75,000 King Super 20 tenor..... :)

danm
User ID: 1822634 May 28th 1:58 PM
Alan they want over $2000.00 for it so I will continue to look at other saxophones.Looks live the prices on the VII's are rising!

Bari Martin
User ID: 1042384 May 28th 8:29 PM
I don't go along with the whole idea of Mk VI body tubes or necks on a Mk VII tenor. If that were the case, we would have accepted the horn from the beginning, and Selmer history would have been changed. It's a legend whose time has come and gone. Every Mk VII tenor was supplied with the new design, high-arch neck, which caused most of the negative reaction. Maybe they are now being found with Mk VI necks, but they were not original to the sax. Selmer used up all the Mk VI necks during the overlap period, and they continued to make Mk VI replacement necks until about two years ago. Mk VI body tubes and many other parts were available for many years, but that doesn't mean they were using them in the new saxes. The Mk VII was a new design. You all know about the redesigned pinky keys, stronger bell brace and standard high F#. There was no 'transitional' model with mixed features. The 'M' and 'N' in front of the serial number has no validity to this argument, either.

Randall
User ID: 8722703 May 28th 9:02 PM
That's what I always thought Bari, but where is everyone getting their info from?
Inquiring minds and all that....

MBushaw
User ID: 1132714 May 29th 4:36 PM
Mr. Ralph Morgan, who was there at the time, has stated on this forum that the M serialed horns used MkVI spec body tubes.

danm
User ID: 8931733 May 29th 4:51 PM
BM, Might be true for the tenors, however if you go to my website:
http://home.attbi.com/~141saxman/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html and click on photos then additional photos you will see the pinky keys of a MKVI on my M258XXX silver MKVII alto. You can compare them with the pictures of a MKVII and MKVI on www.saxpics.com to see. My alto VII and the MKVI that I play from time to time (a friends) pretty much feel the same as far as the keyword goes. The sound is also quite close. If they used up some parts on my alto why couldn't have used up some on the tenor? I cannot speak about the tenor, as I have never played one.

Alan
User ID: 9892733 May 30th 11:36 PM
The neck was changed on the tenors.....totally different neck angle. The neck angle remained the same on the altos. I compared the neck on my VII alto to one on a Mark VI.....same. I had a conversation with Mr. Morgan about mouthpieces, and we got off on the VI and VII.....he did say the VII had the VI body tube, but there was more difference in the tenors than altos...mainly the neck and keywork.

Screech
User ID: 1390494 Jun 2nd 7:43 AM
Thx. Alan that's good info. I have wondered about the VI vs. VII alto necks.

danm
User ID: 8931733 Jun 2nd 8:12 AM
Well,Alan I bought a 214XXX MK VI tenor on Friday. I should have it next week. I will see how good it is after I play it for a while. Then I have to decide which tenor to sell the YTS-61 or the Conn Pre-Chu.If it plays half as good as my VII alto I will be one happy camper! The MKVI is original laq. and is about 85% good.

Alan
User ID: 9892733 Jun 2nd 11:19 PM
Enjoy....hope you got a real player. Screech, the "only" difference in the VI & VII alto necks is the metal. The VII neck is just slightly thicker/heavier, but just barely. I use a VI neck on my VII alto, but the difference in tone/sound is subtle....the VI neck plays with a little more resonance than my VII neck. I like it for concert wind symphony.....but still use my VII neck for other formats. danm, let us know how that VI turns out.

Next 20 Messages

Randall User ID: 0178794	May 23rd 12:46 AM I have read here about MK VII's (early ones) in the "m" series that had a MK VI bore...is this verifiable and if so, what are the serial numbers for these horns? Also, are the necks in fact marked with the round globe mark like a MK VI? Did they make them in France or the US or both? Thanks for your help...
danm User ID: 9635043	May 23rd 8:26 AM Well I have a silver low number MKVII alto and it has an M serial number. It also has the MKVI G# cluster and not the MKVII one.Some have the globe VI neck and some have the 7 neck. Mine has the 7 neck however. I had heard that the newer ones have an N in the serial number like the current serie II numbers. I do not think any were made in the US as far as I know. At one time on this board I read that the MKVII with the M serial number were infact the MKVI body tube. I think this came from Ralph Morgan when he worked for Selmer in those days.Mine plays like all of the MKVI's that I have tried. I however do not know how the newer ones play nor have I played a tenor yet.
Randall User ID: 0178794	May 23rd 6:33 PM Thanks for the info Dan..any idea of approximate serial numbers on these? My old MK VII tenor had a serial number around 276,000 and the "m" too but it surely didn't play like a VI, although it was a fine horn! It had the M7 neck and no engraving. I bought it from the now defunct Dorn & Kirshner back in the late seventies for $1,000.00 even.....
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 24th 12:14 AM All Selmer Paris horns are made in France. Selmer USA imports them. They use to assemble, engrave and lacquer the VI's and VII's here, but the horns are all manufactured in France. The M ser no. horns have the VI body tube, with stronger bracing; the spatula, table key mechanism was strenghened, and some of the other keywork changed. It's a little heavier. Some of the early ones came with VI necks. My alto 255xxx has the flower engraving, dark gold lacquer and came with a M7 neck; however, I have a VI neck for it. The earlier altos are very fine horns and play/sound very much like late VI's. I would assume the same of the early tenors except for the neck. Selmer changed the neck angle of the VII tenors, and many players didn't like that, not to mention the different keywork. When they ran out of the VI body tubes Selmer started using a newer tube with an N before the ser. no. probably in late '77 or '78. Horns above 277xxx generally were not engraved. I personally think the earlier VII's were excellent horns; the later ones vary somewhat. However, there are some very good ones to be found in the later ones. I think Steve Goodson put it very well when he said "the Mark VI was an impossible act to follow".....the VII never stood a chance having to follow the VI, even though it's a very good horn. I don't think the majority of the VI players will ever acknowledge any newer model, Selmer or otherwise, to be as good or better than the VI......old habits die hard. My VII alto has that rich, lush Selmer tone/sound. The tone is why I bought it.
Randall User ID: 0178794	May 25th 11:51 PM Thanks Alan... BTW, I'll acknowledge it! I traded my VI for a 54 and I haven't looked back! The 54 is superb in every way for me.
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 26th 12:38 AM You're in the minority I think. There's a young guy in the Wind symphony with me that plays a Ref 54 tenor....sounds really good. It would sound awesome if he would get rid of that sq. chamber S80 C*. I'm looking forward to the new Ref 54 altos, suppose to be out in 2003.
danm User ID: 9523443	May 26th 7:33 AM Alan tell that guy that plays the 54 that that newer C* makes a great door stop and will keep your door open in all winds! Just kidding.I did like you and gave mine away to the local HS kids and they love them. By the way that New Selmer D Soloist I have for tenor is working out fine. Nice tone. Now I want to find a tenor that plays and sounds as good as my alto! I am going to try a few 6's a ref and a Serie III.
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 26th 11:20 PM A tenor that sounds as good as your silver VII alto may be hard to find without spending a lot. I did suggest to the kid with the 54 tenor he ought to try a super tonemaster; he looked at me like I was crazy. (that's beside the point)
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 27th 3:58 AM danm, I just remembered.....there's a later silver VII tenor on ebay, time close to running out; think the bids up to about 1134 in case you might be interested. Don't know much about VII tenors. If I were going to buy a tenor I might look into a King Super 20 (really nice one).
danm User ID: 1258494	May 27th 3:44 PM Well Alan I was high bidder at $1300.00 on that Tenor but I did not meet reserve. Oh well!
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 27th 11:19 PM Bummer! It sho looked like a nice one. Seller wouldn't take $1300? Oh well, there's always that $75,000 King Super 20 tenor..... :)
danm User ID: 1822634	May 28th 1:58 PM Alan they want over $2000.00 for it so I will continue to look at other saxophones.Looks live the prices on the VII's are rising!
Bari Martin User ID: 1042384	May 28th 8:29 PM I don't go along with the whole idea of Mk VI body tubes or necks on a Mk VII tenor. If that were the case, we would have accepted the horn from the beginning, and Selmer history would have been changed. It's a legend whose time has come and gone. Every Mk VII tenor was supplied with the new design, high-arch neck, which caused most of the negative reaction. Maybe they are now being found with Mk VI necks, but they were not original to the sax. Selmer used up all the Mk VI necks during the overlap period, and they continued to make Mk VI replacement necks until about two years ago. Mk VI body tubes and many other parts were available for many years, but that doesn't mean they were using them in the new saxes. The Mk VII was a new design. You all know about the redesigned pinky keys, stronger bell brace and standard high F#. There was no 'transitional' model with mixed features. The 'M' and 'N' in front of the serial number has no validity to this argument, either.
Randall User ID: 8722703	May 28th 9:02 PM That's what I always thought Bari, but where is everyone getting their info from? Inquiring minds and all that....
MBushaw User ID: 1132714	May 29th 4:36 PM Mr. Ralph Morgan, who was there at the time, has stated on this forum that the M serialed horns used MkVI spec body tubes.
danm User ID: 8931733	May 29th 4:51 PM BM, Might be true for the tenors, however if you go to my website: http://home.attbi.com/~141saxman/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html and click on photos then additional photos you will see the pinky keys of a MKVI on my M258XXX silver MKVII alto. You can compare them with the pictures of a MKVII and MKVI on www.saxpics.com to see. My alto VII and the MKVI that I play from time to time (a friends) pretty much feel the same as far as the keyword goes. The sound is also quite close. If they used up some parts on my alto why couldn't have used up some on the tenor? I cannot speak about the tenor, as I have never played one.
Alan User ID: 9892733	May 30th 11:36 PM The neck was changed on the tenors.....totally different neck angle. The neck angle remained the same on the altos. I compared the neck on my VII alto to one on a Mark VI.....same. I had a conversation with Mr. Morgan about mouthpieces, and we got off on the VI and VII.....he did say the VII had the VI body tube, but there was more difference in the tenors than altos...mainly the neck and keywork.
Screech User ID: 1390494	Jun 2nd 7:43 AM Thx. Alan that's good info. I have wondered about the VI vs. VII alto necks.
danm User ID: 8931733	Jun 2nd 8:12 AM Well,Alan I bought a 214XXX MK VI tenor on Friday. I should have it next week. I will see how good it is after I play it for a while. Then I have to decide which tenor to sell the YTS-61 or the Conn Pre-Chu.If it plays half as good as my VII alto I will be one happy camper! The MKVI is original laq. and is about 85% good.
Alan User ID: 9892733	Jun 2nd 11:19 PM Enjoy....hope you got a real player. Screech, the "only" difference in the VI & VII alto necks is the metal. The VII neck is just slightly thicker/heavier, but just barely. I use a VI neck on my VII alto, but the difference in tone/sound is subtle....the VI neck plays with a little more resonance than my VII neck. I like it for concert wind symphony.....but still use my VII neck for other formats. danm, let us know how that VI turns out.