Sax on the Web Forum

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Millenium alto a FAKE!, No. 2

Next 20 Messages

anon
User ID: 1752694 Mar 26th 9:24 AM
Well, 'bout the time you think this conversation has died away, Matthews Music has another 'new' Millenium up on ebay...read the very beginning of the description about 'silver plate'...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=853984339

SaxGuy80
User ID: 9997253 Mar 26th 11:36 AM
It sure does look nice, but is it, or is it not Silver Plate? I had a bad experience with Matthews Music, so be sure to ask plenty of questions.

anon
User ID: 0512724 Mar 26th 7:06 PM
read the description, Matthews 'claims' it's silver plate...

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Mar 27th 6:07 AM
Shame on Selmer for starting this confusion!

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Mar 28th 7:40 PM
SaxGuy80, Tell me about that now please, in case my expected to be great experience changes (hopfully not - now that the horn is in transit).

I have to admit though, that when I saw this on the Selmer.fr site it leads you beleive it is silver plate!

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Mar 28th 8:16 PM
The www.henri-selmer.fr (english version - not translated by babel) says:
"- body and bell : silver finish, mat look, varnished
- jar : solid silver..."

Truely an ambiguous description. I alwasy thought it was silver plate.

The French site states:
"- Corps et pavillon: Finition argentée brossée, aspect mat, vernie
- Bocal: Argent massif,..."

Perhaps someone fluent in French can offer a literal (or meaningful) transaltion...

SaxGuy80
User ID: 9997253 Mar 29th 12:34 AM
Now my experience with Matthews music was not a good one, but was mine and might not be the same experience you will have,or have had before. I am in no way trying to defame them, I just want to share my experience. I ordered a Series 3 Alto from them, and 3 months later no Alto. They said that they had shipped it, but had no tracking number available even though it was sent via UPS. (UPS always supplies a tracking number, even on international orders). I sent them email after email, long distance call after call, and had no saxophone, but a big credit card charge. After 3.5 months, they said that they would send out another Alto. One week later I recieved a Series 3 Alto, but there was some problems. This horn was not new as described by them, and it had quite a few scratches, and some dents, and was completely out of adjustment. I wasnt going to keep a beat up used horn, when I paid for a brand new Alto, so I spoke with them(David) and sent it back to the Netherlands (out of my pocket, though they said they would reimburse me).When they recieved the horn they apologized for all the waiting I had done for the original alto that never came, and for the incorrect Alto. I said it was fine, that mistakes do happen, but that I just wanted my money back so I could go ahead and purchase the horn somewhere else. They said no problem and that they would credit my card. A month later, (Still no credit), I get a phone call from my credit card company saying that I had gone over my limit, ((and how could this be, I said to myself!!)) Matthews music had charged me again, instead of crediting my account which pushed me over my limit, caused a huge financing charge and slightly ruined my credit. another 2 weeks later, after fighting with matthews music for getting a credit back, and having the wrong charge taken off, it was finally done. I never was reimbursed for returning the horn to them(Very expensive), but I learned a huge lesson. I now order everything horn wise from either local shops or www.saxshop.nl where I got my Alto, and my reference 36 Tenor which I love. I hope your experience is much better than mine Steve Cars.

Alan
User ID: 9892733 Mar 29th 1:53 AM
What a "horror" story.......convinces me. I'm a firm believer in buying where I can try out the horn. It may cost more, but there are times when it's worth it.

anon
User ID: 2059234 Mar 29th 8:14 AM
Well, the first/biggest mistake Saxguy80 made was in not having the credit charges reversed. There's usually 60 or so day limit on this, but credit card companies have policies like this just for these kind of non-receipt of goods situations.
I expect either Matthews would have come through with the goods if the charges were reversed, or saxguy80 could have then gone on to someone else.
Second mistake was in not insisting on a tracking number. He's right about the major shippers always having tracking numbers.

Moral of the story: get your ducks lines up *ahead* of time, and if ANY problemos after a few days, take action immediately.

Haven't bought from Matthews(have a friend who has bought 2 new horns from them, though), but i've bought several Euro horns, pretty much with no/minimal problems.

JEB
User ID: 0456964 Mar 29th 9:55 AM
Steve,

I am francophone and check out the french Selmer site and the french dictionaries. According to the "Petit Robert" or "Larousse" french dictionaries, argenté can mean: 1. covered with silver or 2. that has the color of silver or the looks of silver. "Finition argentée" as used by Selmer would seem to be more appropriately undertood by "of a silver finish" or "finished in the color of silver".

The definitive description meaning covered with silver (silver plated) in french is "plaqué argent".

I hope it does not add to the confusion.

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Mar 29th 11:05 AM
SaxGuy80, Well there was some very possitive responses (and no -) on a separate thread. I talked to David via email several times and also over the phone before ordering. They are using Priority Post these days (no tracking, insured though...). Keeping my attitude cautiously optimistic until I see and play the horn. This is the biggest instrument investment I've made since the new Marks VI alto in 1970 (that I'm still playing!).

BTW, I found out the hard way that you can be too patient with vendors. The first time I had a problem like yours I went to my credit card company and they said I had to have a documented (like letter and transcribed phone calls) chain of conversations with the vendor to try and work it out or demonstrate their unwillingness. I got my money back from that vendor's VISA escrow account with VISA's help.

So the 2nd time (w/a diff. vendor) I had a similar problem I spend 3 months trading phone messages and "you just missed him"s, until I finally called my CC co. and they said, "Oh, if it's been over 60 days we can't help you".

anon, Oh - I see you just said this... BTW, I did check with VISA to see if, as a US buyer, I had the same protection overseas as in the states with regard to delivery of promissed product and they said yes.

JEB, No - I think that you have shown that the English translation has pretty amibguous. If the French did not say "plaque argent" then I wouldn't expect it to be plated. With the English saying silver finish that could also imply not plated. But how many silver saxes are there in the world that are silver lacquered...

Also the English site says Varnished and we know that silver plated Selmers aren't lacquered over the silver right. Clues only and truely unfortunate for Selmer's reputation and the buyers.

Randall didn't even realize that his horn was not plated until he tried to polish what looked like tarnish. Could it be everyone (besides Selmer) is unaware, even Matthews Music? (though that's all changing fast...)

Steve Cars
User ID: 2386864 Mar 29th 3:35 PM
Hey SaxGuy80, Matthews Music wrote me that they haven't lost a horn in the last 4 years. It makes me wonder when your experience occured...

SaxPistol
User ID: 9245273 Mar 29th 3:38 PM
Matthew's don't ship UPS. The use USPS and they don't supply tracking numbers. I have dealt with Matthews and they are terrific.

SaxGuy80
User ID: 9997253 Mar 29th 4:23 PM
I am sincere when I say that they shipped UPS, cause the horn that arrived came in a UPS box, with a UPS letterhead that I still have with Matthews Music on it. I would of prefered them to ship it USPS because they seem to take more care of the packages than UPS.

SaxGuy80
User ID: 9997253 Mar 29th 4:26 PM
Saxpistol, I am also glad that you had a good experience with them, and I hope that everyone that uses them has a good experience. Im not starting anything against them, Im just explaining what happened to me. I might of been a rare case, but none the less it has made me weary of ever dealing with them again.

Randall
User ID: 1348824 Apr 1st 1:20 AM
I am just qbout to return to Japan from Europe and I met with David at Matthews and I told him and Paul at the Saxofoonwinkel that these horns are NOT silver plated and they shouldn't represent them that way. Same with all the dealers I met. Whether they believe me or not is yet to be seen;
I'll say briefly that both David and Paul are great people and highly trustworthy IMHO. Each took almost an entire afternoon with me, talking horns, letting me try out horns, etc... I have NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, been treated so well in any music store as I was at Matthews and Saxofoonwinkel.
I would recommmend either.

crawford May 14th 1:41 PM
Where was the original post on the finish conundrum? I can't seem to find the first post. Thanks.

Randall
User ID: 8722703 May 14th 6:01 PM
Hi Robin,
I think the post was deleted after so long.
An addendum...
I just found the official Selmer flyer sent out to all Japanese music shops for the Millenium alto and it says VERY clearly in Japanese, "Silver plated, hand brushed finish".

Joe
User ID: 0422394 Jun 5th 3:16 PM
During my stay in the Netherlands I tested quite a few Selmers in a new shop in the Netherlands called Amsterdam Winds. These guys were extremely nice and professional.
They told me that Selmer will introduce a full silver model saxophone by next year. Amsterdam Winds will have them in their shop by next January. To avoid confusion, this new model is NOT the millenium model, which is not made of sterling silver.
Check out Amsterdam Winds at: http://www.amsterdamwinds.com

Bones
User ID: 1307164 Jun 5th 3:26 PM
Yes, Selmer has announced that they will be producing a sterling (not plated) soprano and alto. I will be interested to try both.

Next 20 Messages

anon User ID: 1752694	Mar 26th 9:24 AM Well, 'bout the time you think this conversation has died away, Matthews Music has another 'new' Millenium up on ebay...read the very beginning of the description about 'silver plate'... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=853984339
SaxGuy80 User ID: 9997253	Mar 26th 11:36 AM It sure does look nice, but is it, or is it not Silver Plate? I had a bad experience with Matthews Music, so be sure to ask plenty of questions.
anon User ID: 0512724	Mar 26th 7:06 PM read the description, Matthews 'claims' it's silver plate...
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Mar 27th 6:07 AM Shame on Selmer for starting this confusion!
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Mar 28th 7:40 PM SaxGuy80, Tell me about that now please, in case my expected to be great experience changes (hopfully not - now that the horn is in transit). I have to admit though, that when I saw this on the Selmer.fr site it leads you beleive it is silver plate!
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Mar 28th 8:16 PM The www.henri-selmer.fr (english version - not translated by babel) says: "- body and bell : silver finish, mat look, varnished - jar : solid silver..." Truely an ambiguous description. I alwasy thought it was silver plate. The French site states: "- Corps et pavillon: Finition argentée brossée, aspect mat, vernie - Bocal: Argent massif,..." Perhaps someone fluent in French can offer a literal (or meaningful) transaltion...
SaxGuy80 User ID: 9997253	Mar 29th 12:34 AM Now my experience with Matthews music was not a good one, but was mine and might not be the same experience you will have,or have had before. I am in no way trying to defame them, I just want to share my experience. I ordered a Series 3 Alto from them, and 3 months later no Alto. They said that they had shipped it, but had no tracking number available even though it was sent via UPS. (UPS always supplies a tracking number, even on international orders). I sent them email after email, long distance call after call, and had no saxophone, but a big credit card charge. After 3.5 months, they said that they would send out another Alto. One week later I recieved a Series 3 Alto, but there was some problems. This horn was not new as described by them, and it had quite a few scratches, and some dents, and was completely out of adjustment. I wasnt going to keep a beat up used horn, when I paid for a brand new Alto, so I spoke with them(David) and sent it back to the Netherlands (out of my pocket, though they said they would reimburse me).When they recieved the horn they apologized for all the waiting I had done for the original alto that never came, and for the incorrect Alto. I said it was fine, that mistakes do happen, but that I just wanted my money back so I could go ahead and purchase the horn somewhere else. They said no problem and that they would credit my card. A month later, (Still no credit), I get a phone call from my credit card company saying that I had gone over my limit, ((and how could this be, I said to myself!!)) Matthews music had charged me again, instead of crediting my account which pushed me over my limit, caused a huge financing charge and slightly ruined my credit. another 2 weeks later, after fighting with matthews music for getting a credit back, and having the wrong charge taken off, it was finally done. I never was reimbursed for returning the horn to them(Very expensive), but I learned a huge lesson. I now order everything horn wise from either local shops or www.saxshop.nl where I got my Alto, and my reference 36 Tenor which I love. I hope your experience is much better than mine Steve Cars.
Alan User ID: 9892733	Mar 29th 1:53 AM What a "horror" story.......convinces me. I'm a firm believer in buying where I can try out the horn. It may cost more, but there are times when it's worth it.
anon User ID: 2059234	Mar 29th 8:14 AM Well, the first/biggest mistake Saxguy80 made was in not having the credit charges reversed. There's usually 60 or so day limit on this, but credit card companies have policies like this just for these kind of non-receipt of goods situations. I expect either Matthews would have come through with the goods if the charges were reversed, or saxguy80 could have then gone on to someone else. Second mistake was in not insisting on a tracking number. He's right about the major shippers always having tracking numbers. Moral of the story: get your ducks lines up ahead of time, and if ANY problemos after a few days, take action immediately. Haven't bought from Matthews(have a friend who has bought 2 new horns from them, though), but i've bought several Euro horns, pretty much with no/minimal problems.
JEB User ID: 0456964	Mar 29th 9:55 AM Steve, I am francophone and check out the french Selmer site and the french dictionaries. According to the "Petit Robert" or "Larousse" french dictionaries, argenté can mean: 1. covered with silver or 2. that has the color of silver or the looks of silver. "Finition argentée" as used by Selmer would seem to be more appropriately undertood by "of a silver finish" or "finished in the color of silver". The definitive description meaning covered with silver (silver plated) in french is "plaqué argent". I hope it does not add to the confusion.
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Mar 29th 11:05 AM SaxGuy80, Well there was some very possitive responses (and no -) on a separate thread. I talked to David via email several times and also over the phone before ordering. They are using Priority Post these days (no tracking, insured though...). Keeping my attitude cautiously optimistic until I see and play the horn. This is the biggest instrument investment I've made since the new Marks VI alto in 1970 (that I'm still playing!). BTW, I found out the hard way that you can be too patient with vendors. The first time I had a problem like yours I went to my credit card company and they said I had to have a documented (like letter and transcribed phone calls) chain of conversations with the vendor to try and work it out or demonstrate their unwillingness. I got my money back from that vendor's VISA escrow account with VISA's help. So the 2nd time (w/a diff. vendor) I had a similar problem I spend 3 months trading phone messages and "you just missed him"s, until I finally called my CC co. and they said, "Oh, if it's been over 60 days we can't help you". anon, Oh - I see you just said this... BTW, I did check with VISA to see if, as a US buyer, I had the same protection overseas as in the states with regard to delivery of promissed product and they said yes. JEB, No - I think that you have shown that the English translation has pretty amibguous. If the French did not say "plaque argent" then I wouldn't expect it to be plated. With the English saying silver finish that could also imply not plated. But how many silver saxes are there in the world that are silver lacquered... Also the English site says Varnished and we know that silver plated Selmers aren't lacquered over the silver right. Clues only and truely unfortunate for Selmer's reputation and the buyers. Randall didn't even realize that his horn was not plated until he tried to polish what looked like tarnish. Could it be everyone (besides Selmer) is unaware, even Matthews Music? (though that's all changing fast...)
Steve Cars User ID: 2386864	Mar 29th 3:35 PM Hey SaxGuy80, Matthews Music wrote me that they haven't lost a horn in the last 4 years. It makes me wonder when your experience occured...
SaxPistol User ID: 9245273	Mar 29th 3:38 PM Matthew's don't ship UPS. The use USPS and they don't supply tracking numbers. I have dealt with Matthews and they are terrific.
SaxGuy80 User ID: 9997253	Mar 29th 4:23 PM I am sincere when I say that they shipped UPS, cause the horn that arrived came in a UPS box, with a UPS letterhead that I still have with Matthews Music on it. I would of prefered them to ship it USPS because they seem to take more care of the packages than UPS.
SaxGuy80 User ID: 9997253	Mar 29th 4:26 PM Saxpistol, I am also glad that you had a good experience with them, and I hope that everyone that uses them has a good experience. Im not starting anything against them, Im just explaining what happened to me. I might of been a rare case, but none the less it has made me weary of ever dealing with them again.
Randall User ID: 1348824	Apr 1st 1:20 AM I am just qbout to return to Japan from Europe and I met with David at Matthews and I told him and Paul at the Saxofoonwinkel that these horns are NOT silver plated and they shouldn't represent them that way. Same with all the dealers I met. Whether they believe me or not is yet to be seen; I'll say briefly that both David and Paul are great people and highly trustworthy IMHO. Each took almost an entire afternoon with me, talking horns, letting me try out horns, etc... I have NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, been treated so well in any music store as I was at Matthews and Saxofoonwinkel. I would recommmend either.
crawford	May 14th 1:41 PM Where was the original post on the finish conundrum? I can't seem to find the first post. Thanks.
Randall User ID: 8722703	May 14th 6:01 PM Hi Robin, I think the post was deleted after so long. An addendum... I just found the official Selmer flyer sent out to all Japanese music shops for the Millenium alto and it says VERY clearly in Japanese, "Silver plated, hand brushed finish".
Joe User ID: 0422394	Jun 5th 3:16 PM During my stay in the Netherlands I tested quite a few Selmers in a new shop in the Netherlands called Amsterdam Winds. These guys were extremely nice and professional. They told me that Selmer will introduce a full silver model saxophone by next year. Amsterdam Winds will have them in their shop by next January. To avoid confusion, this new model is NOT the millenium model, which is not made of sterling silver. Check out Amsterdam Winds at: http://www.amsterdamwinds.com
Bones User ID: 1307164	Jun 5th 3:26 PM Yes, Selmer has announced that they will be producing a sterling (not plated) soprano and alto. I will be interested to try both.