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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Series III alto intonation

Next 20 Messages

Randall
User ID: 1689844 Jan 3rd 1:08 AM
OK, Ok..I have a general question to series III alto players. After reading the III soprano thread I was prompted to start this one.
Does anyone here have flatness problems with their series III alto? As you may know from the "fake" thread, I have a Millenium...but I find that I have to push the mp all the way in to get it in tune, and even then the extreme ranges are a little suspect. One of my students (who also owns a fake, er.. Millenium) also has the exact same problem. I played his horn and I saw absolutely the same thing.
I use a #9 metal Yanagisawa piece with #3 Superials.
What is your experience III owners/players?

stevew
User ID: 1738604 Jan 3rd 8:37 AM
As far as I know the intonation is pretty good on these horns. It may be that the mouthpiece doesn't suit it, which might explain why the student's horn does the same for you. That said, the Yani mouthpieces are fairly similar to the Selmer ones in chamber and lay, but its worth trying some other mouthpieces, though.

polyonoma
User ID: 1285974 Jan 3rd 8:39 AM
Had a similar problem on my old VI - oddly enough, opening the key heights a bit took care of it. I thought that only affected projection, but it also removed my intonation issues. Just a thought.

-Shawn

Randall
User ID: 1689844 Jan 3rd 9:22 AM
Interesting thought about the key heights. I too thought that the mp may be the problem...but I forgot to mention that my student is using the stock C* piece and he is haveing the same problems...of course he's a beginner, but still....
I haven't tried a Runyon Quantum yet on my alto...maybe it will help?

Andrew D.
User ID: 1905964 Jan 3rd 9:31 AM
I had until recently a series 3 brushed alto & noe of the first things I did was recork the crook as my link went at least 2mm passed the end of the cork, However the tuning was the best i've played on any alto!!

Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Jan 3rd 11:00 AM
Randall, the issue of mouthpiece placement on the Serie III alto is fairly well known (elsewhere). Selmer has been saying from the start - perhaps even in the owners lit - that the horn is designed for the mouthpiece to sit further on the cork than most people are used to.

It's alright... Really...

Now back to previously scheduled concerns about those finishes... ;/

Randall
User ID: 8722703 Jan 4th 2:11 AM
Thanks for the info G! I was beginning to get a little worried lol.

Riff
User ID: 5950413 Jan 9th 10:29 PM
The Serie III alto simply has a shorter cork on the neck. That's why the mouthpiece appears to be so far on. It's an illusion. The mouthpiece isn't actually on a farther than it would be on any other sax.
The Link I use on my III alto covers the entire cork and then some. I kinda like the way it looks. No cork to separate the gold colored neck from the gold plated mouthpiece. :)

Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 Jan 10th 1:21 AM
Those damn selmer guys will do anything to save money. Now they're giving us LESS CORK..I'm pissed

Prince
User ID: 0136334 Jan 10th 2:17 AM
You know? Selmer has changed their manufacture method without prior notice. Their saxes used to be 'hand made', but now they are 'foot made'. That's why most of us have experienced wiht those new Selmers. They have also been more greedy by reducing the thickness of the brass sheets, Then they say some b***s**t like 'to give more vibrant...etc.'. I'm gonna put my Ref54 on e-bay soon.

Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 Jan 10th 2:33 AM
Now I'm getting curious..like the skinnier ribs deal on the new horns..somebody should caliper the Brass thickness on the new models so we can compare with the vintage models. Or maybe weigh them?? Sounds kinda like the Selmer world is coming to an end. I wanna compare my series II Bari and my III Sop to Bari/Sop VI's.(I won't part with my VI Tenor & VII Alto tho) :0{

Riff
User ID: 5950413 Jan 10th 10:02 AM
The JK SX90 series has no ribs at all. Just like the old Conns and Bueschers. Does this mean JK is being cheap? I don't think so. Ribs were originally added to improve the strength of the body and stabilize the key action. With so much interest in vintage horns now, manufacturers are doing what customers say they want. Going back to the old methods of construction. Ergo, less ribs or no ribs at all.
As for less cork on the neck, who cares? You don't need that extra 1/2 inch of cork sticking out behind your mouthpiece.

There's nothing wrong with the new Selmer saxes, they're among the best in the world. Even though I bought a new SX90R last year I'm still thinking of selling my Mark VI and getting a Serie III tenor. I definitely feel the new horns are better than the old.

MBushaw
User ID: 2616364 Jan 10th 10:33 AM
As far as I know, Selmer has always used a ribbed construction until the Serie III. It does call for an extra step in construction, so it is cheaper to make post-on-body horns. But with the thinner brass they are not as durable. Take a look at Yamaha, their cheaper models use post-on-body and their expensive models use ribs.

Prince
User ID: 0136334 Jan 10th 4:34 PM
Keilwerth, Conn and some other vintage horns have no rib, yes, it's true, but you need to feel the body of those horns. They have thicker and have more solid body. In this case, having ribs is not quite necessary. Selmer nowaday uses much thiner material (metal sheets not ribs, do not confuse) than it did before.

Randall
User ID: 0178794 Jan 10th 5:30 PM
The III alto cork shortness is interesting to me.
My Cannonball 98 alto has an unusually long cork and I push the MP about 2/3rds of the way in on it....so that probably equates to about the same place I have to push my mp in on the Fake, er..III.
About metal thickness, it seems that the Selmer horns now are lighter and easier to dent (when I compare my experience with my old MK VI)...but this is a very unscientific observation (so please don't whack me with your calipers!)
On the other hand, having had my C-ball disassembled and overhauled, it was very noticiable that the body tube of the horn was made of quite thick metal while the bell seemed a great deal thinner.
I'm not complaining. The C-Ball 98 is the hands down winner over ALL my altos (and that's a lot). Maybe I've discovered Cannonball's secret?

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 7106263 Jan 11th 3:24 AM
I've encountered ribbed saxes with unstable mechanism mounting, and also non-ribbed saxes with very stable mechanism mounting.

Stability depends on several factors, including thickness and hardness of the body at each post location, and the size/thickness of the rib or base of each post.

I find student Yamahas, with no ribs, very resistant to denting, and any dents are particularly difficult to remove. This suggests that ribs are unnecessary for strength because the body metal is so strong.

On the other hand there are saxes where the body can be pushed in with thumb pressure. Ribbed construction sure is necessary here.

On the student Yamaha the diameter of the base of the posts for stack keys is almost 16 mm. This probably gives considerably more stability than the very narrow post ribs that some manufacturers have used.

I note that my Yanagisawa alto (880) has exceptionally wide post ribs, about 14 mm, presumably to provide strength to compensate for a relatively soft body.

The most unstable posts are those which are soldered directly to the body without even a base on the post. This is responsible for making the mechanism mounting of some vintage horns quite unstable, hence unreliable.

BTSW I recal reading a long time ago, either from Yamaha or Yanagisawa literature, that the size and placement of the ribs was designed (with computer modelling) in order to improve the tone and response, particularly of certain notes. Of course this reason is given for almost every design feature of saxes.

I have seeen no reference to this since so perhaps I was dreaming.

Riff
User ID: 5950413 Jan 11th 9:25 AM
Its not really surprising that a ribless student horn would be quite stable and resistant to denting. That's exactly what they're designed for; to take the rough handling that kids can dish out. Parents like this because it saves on repair bills. Performance quality is a secondary consideration.

Conversely, some pro horns are quite delicate. Presumably because the design criteria here is towards better performance with the thinking that a professional adult will care for the instrument properly. This philosophy is evident in some very expensive flutes. I'm sure it carries over to saxophones too.

So I would have to say the use of ribs or no ribs, heavy or light guage metal, is not indicitive of an instruments quality. Just its design concept. (Assuming of course the horn can withstand normal professional use.)

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Jan 11th 10:00 AM
Come on, Riff, you know better than to introduce facts and reason... Man, talk like this is really gonna kill the thread.

(Riff's right, you know.)

Riff
User ID: 5950413 Jan 11th 9:17 PM
Ooops, didn't mean to kill the thread.
Darn, I wish my SX90R had ribs! ;)

TnrSaxinet
User ID: 0526904 Jan 19th 2:01 PM
I just took my alto in (Serie 3) which I have had for about 4 or 5 months. The repair guy replaced 10 pads, because they were too small. Why is selmer putting on too small of pads? This is going to cost a lot! He had to replace brand new pads! Anyone else have this problem?
Also, my alto buzzes on the G and G# and A right above the staff, how do I fix it? My friend has the same horn, and it does the same thing!
Thanks
TnrSaxinet@aol.com

Next 20 Messages

Randall User ID: 1689844	Jan 3rd 1:08 AM OK, Ok..I have a general question to series III alto players. After reading the III soprano thread I was prompted to start this one. Does anyone here have flatness problems with their series III alto? As you may know from the "fake" thread, I have a Millenium...but I find that I have to push the mp all the way in to get it in tune, and even then the extreme ranges are a little suspect. One of my students (who also owns a fake, er.. Millenium) also has the exact same problem. I played his horn and I saw absolutely the same thing. I use a #9 metal Yanagisawa piece with #3 Superials. What is your experience III owners/players?
stevew User ID: 1738604	Jan 3rd 8:37 AM As far as I know the intonation is pretty good on these horns. It may be that the mouthpiece doesn't suit it, which might explain why the student's horn does the same for you. That said, the Yani mouthpieces are fairly similar to the Selmer ones in chamber and lay, but its worth trying some other mouthpieces, though.
polyonoma User ID: 1285974	Jan 3rd 8:39 AM Had a similar problem on my old VI - oddly enough, opening the key heights a bit took care of it. I thought that only affected projection, but it also removed my intonation issues. Just a thought. -Shawn
Randall User ID: 1689844	Jan 3rd 9:22 AM Interesting thought about the key heights. I too thought that the mp may be the problem...but I forgot to mention that my student is using the stock C* piece and he is haveing the same problems...of course he's a beginner, but still.... I haven't tried a Runyon Quantum yet on my alto...maybe it will help?
Andrew D. User ID: 1905964	Jan 3rd 9:31 AM I had until recently a series 3 brushed alto & noe of the first things I did was recork the crook as my link went at least 2mm passed the end of the cork, However the tuning was the best i've played on any alto!!
Dr G User ID: 7468553	Jan 3rd 11:00 AM Randall, the issue of mouthpiece placement on the Serie III alto is fairly well known (elsewhere). Selmer has been saying from the start - perhaps even in the owners lit - that the horn is designed for the mouthpiece to sit further on the cork than most people are used to. It's alright... Really... Now back to previously scheduled concerns about those finishes... ;/
Randall User ID: 8722703	Jan 4th 2:11 AM Thanks for the info G! I was beginning to get a little worried lol.
Riff User ID: 5950413	Jan 9th 10:29 PM The Serie III alto simply has a shorter cork on the neck. That's why the mouthpiece appears to be so far on. It's an illusion. The mouthpiece isn't actually on a farther than it would be on any other sax. The Link I use on my III alto covers the entire cork and then some. I kinda like the way it looks. No cork to separate the gold colored neck from the gold plated mouthpiece. :)
Cashsax User ID: 9014973	Jan 10th 1:21 AM Those damn selmer guys will do anything to save money. Now they're giving us LESS CORK..I'm pissed
Prince User ID: 0136334	Jan 10th 2:17 AM You know? Selmer has changed their manufacture method without prior notice. Their saxes used to be 'hand made', but now they are 'foot made'. That's why most of us have experienced wiht those new Selmers. They have also been more greedy by reducing the thickness of the brass sheets, Then they say some b*st like 'to give more vibrant...etc.'. I'm gonna put my Ref54 on e-bay soon.
Cashsax User ID: 9014973	Jan 10th 2:33 AM Now I'm getting curious..like the skinnier ribs deal on the new horns..somebody should caliper the Brass thickness on the new models so we can compare with the vintage models. Or maybe weigh them?? Sounds kinda like the Selmer world is coming to an end. I wanna compare my series II Bari and my III Sop to Bari/Sop VI's.(I won't part with my VI Tenor & VII Alto tho) :0{
Riff User ID: 5950413	Jan 10th 10:02 AM The JK SX90 series has no ribs at all. Just like the old Conns and Bueschers. Does this mean JK is being cheap? I don't think so. Ribs were originally added to improve the strength of the body and stabilize the key action. With so much interest in vintage horns now, manufacturers are doing what customers say they want. Going back to the old methods of construction. Ergo, less ribs or no ribs at all. As for less cork on the neck, who cares? You don't need that extra 1/2 inch of cork sticking out behind your mouthpiece. There's nothing wrong with the new Selmer saxes, they're among the best in the world. Even though I bought a new SX90R last year I'm still thinking of selling my Mark VI and getting a Serie III tenor. I definitely feel the new horns are better than the old.
MBushaw User ID: 2616364	Jan 10th 10:33 AM As far as I know, Selmer has always used a ribbed construction until the Serie III. It does call for an extra step in construction, so it is cheaper to make post-on-body horns. But with the thinner brass they are not as durable. Take a look at Yamaha, their cheaper models use post-on-body and their expensive models use ribs.
Prince User ID: 0136334	Jan 10th 4:34 PM Keilwerth, Conn and some other vintage horns have no rib, yes, it's true, but you need to feel the body of those horns. They have thicker and have more solid body. In this case, having ribs is not quite necessary. Selmer nowaday uses much thiner material (metal sheets not ribs, do not confuse) than it did before.
Randall User ID: 0178794	Jan 10th 5:30 PM The III alto cork shortness is interesting to me. My Cannonball 98 alto has an unusually long cork and I push the MP about 2/3rds of the way in on it....so that probably equates to about the same place I have to push my mp in on the Fake, er..III. About metal thickness, it seems that the Selmer horns now are lighter and easier to dent (when I compare my experience with my old MK VI)...but this is a very unscientific observation (so please don't whack me with your calipers!) On the other hand, having had my C-ball disassembled and overhauled, it was very noticiable that the body tube of the horn was made of quite thick metal while the bell seemed a great deal thinner. I'm not complaining. The C-Ball 98 is the hands down winner over ALL my altos (and that's a lot). Maybe I've discovered Cannonball's secret?
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 7106263	Jan 11th 3:24 AM I've encountered ribbed saxes with unstable mechanism mounting, and also non-ribbed saxes with very stable mechanism mounting. Stability depends on several factors, including thickness and hardness of the body at each post location, and the size/thickness of the rib or base of each post. I find student Yamahas, with no ribs, very resistant to denting, and any dents are particularly difficult to remove. This suggests that ribs are unnecessary for strength because the body metal is so strong. On the other hand there are saxes where the body can be pushed in with thumb pressure. Ribbed construction sure is necessary here. On the student Yamaha the diameter of the base of the posts for stack keys is almost 16 mm. This probably gives considerably more stability than the very narrow post ribs that some manufacturers have used. I note that my Yanagisawa alto (880) has exceptionally wide post ribs, about 14 mm, presumably to provide strength to compensate for a relatively soft body. The most unstable posts are those which are soldered directly to the body without even a base on the post. This is responsible for making the mechanism mounting of some vintage horns quite unstable, hence unreliable. BTSW I recal reading a long time ago, either from Yamaha or Yanagisawa literature, that the size and placement of the ribs was designed (with computer modelling) in order to improve the tone and response, particularly of certain notes. Of course this reason is given for almost every design feature of saxes. I have seeen no reference to this since so perhaps I was dreaming.
Riff User ID: 5950413	Jan 11th 9:25 AM Its not really surprising that a ribless student horn would be quite stable and resistant to denting. That's exactly what they're designed for; to take the rough handling that kids can dish out. Parents like this because it saves on repair bills. Performance quality is a secondary consideration. Conversely, some pro horns are quite delicate. Presumably because the design criteria here is towards better performance with the thinking that a professional adult will care for the instrument properly. This philosophy is evident in some very expensive flutes. I'm sure it carries over to saxophones too. So I would have to say the use of ribs or no ribs, heavy or light guage metal, is not indicitive of an instruments quality. Just its design concept. (Assuming of course the horn can withstand normal professional use.)
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Jan 11th 10:00 AM Come on, Riff, you know better than to introduce facts and reason... Man, talk like this is really gonna kill the thread. (Riff's right, you know.)
Riff User ID: 5950413	Jan 11th 9:17 PM Ooops, didn't mean to kill the thread. Darn, I wish my SX90R had ribs! ;)
TnrSaxinet User ID: 0526904	Jan 19th 2:01 PM I just took my alto in (Serie 3) which I have had for about 4 or 5 months. The repair guy replaced 10 pads, because they were too small. Why is selmer putting on too small of pads? This is going to cost a lot! He had to replace brand new pads! Anyone else have this problem? Also, my alto buzzes on the G and G# and A right above the staff, how do I fix it? My friend has the same horn, and it does the same thing! Thanks TnrSaxinet@aol.com