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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Who is playing the reference horns?

Next 20 Messages

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Dec 5th 9:21 PM
On a separate post, Dr. G mentioned that Wayne Shorter is on the Ref 36? Thanks for the impressive info.
What other big names are using the Reference Horns?
Apparently Michael Brecker used the 54 in a concert several months ago and had good things to say to Selmer about the horn. Is the 54 his main axe now, or was it a momentary marketing thing?
I hope I don't come accross as a poser being so concerned about who plays what. The greats know alot more about the sax than I do. I can't help but respect and take into consideration their opinions, especially the ones who are not PAID to endorse certain instruments.

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 6th 12:23 AM
Brecker is using a modified neck on the ref 54. I am awaiting one for my ref 54 to see wether it turns it into a number 1 horn or wether the horn gets on sold.

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Dec 6th 1:34 AM
Bootman,
Always appreciate your advice. Many, many thanks!
So how did you go about getting a modified neck for the 54? I remember you posting about silver necks...Is the one you are waiting for silver? Is this an after market item Selmer is selling to the public or is it custom just for the top cats?
Looking forward to hearing about your experience with the new neck when it comes.
Thanks!!!!!
Hope you are enjoying your summer weather!

Robin Watts
User ID: 2595894 Dec 6th 2:02 AM
Gerry Bergonzi reecently played a gig with a ref 36 according to the Saxophone Corner, the Selmer's discussion page.

Dr G, where did you hear about Shorter playing the 36. Has it become its main horn? Has he recorded with it?

Robin

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 6th 3:58 AM
Patrick,
I am still waiting for this neck. It is hand selected ref 54 neck that has been opened to .503 and has then been silver plated. Very specific type stuff but the fellow I spoke who is doing this neck is on holiday and will be back soon. I will know more when I have had a chance to play it.

I am not a paid endorser of Selmer products and I am probably about as anti-Selmer as you can get. I bought this horn purely on merit, it played well and had a lot of potential. My biggest problem is that I want it to do more and I can hear that it is in there but i can't release it as yet. This is what is frustrating me at the moment. I haven't given up on it yet but I have been close at times, and then at other times it has done exactly what I have asked it too and performed flawlessly.

The famed 36 neck on 54 trick is not so crash hot either, I have tried it with 2 different 36 necks.and it doesn't have anywhere near enough (for Mike R) grunt with the 36 neck. The solid silver neck adds twice as much presence and volume to the horn. I want more, there is still something within this horn that needs to be unlocked. It is great jazz horn in it's present incarnation.

Berg-Man
User ID: 8381693 Dec 6th 8:39 AM
Jerry lives and plays in my area. He owns a 36 and a 54, he has 4 necks for the 36 alone. Jerry also owns many other horns but mostly I see him still playing his old Selmer Super and sounding great. He's probably most comfortable on that instrument but can make any horn sound wonderful. I've talked to other pro players who have played the Ref. horns and most still prefer their old VI's. Over the next 5-10 years after the initial hype dies down I don't think you will see every one switching over to the Refs. They are very good horns but certainly not the end all for everyone.

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Dec 6th 10:20 AM
Robin, I heard about it from a member of SotW. He was in the shop when Wayne was buying a Ref 36 and a Serie III sop.

Berg-Man, if I had a great playing anything that I had used for the last 10 years, I wouldn't switch either. But when I found that the Ref 36 answered all the shortcomings of my BA, I was very happy. If it could feel as smooth as a well-played-in horn with 40 years experience, I'd truly be estatic.

Berg-Man
User ID: 8381693 Dec 6th 11:30 AM
Doc,
Saxophones are very subjective, how many times have you heard cats say that thier VI is the best VI they have ever played. I think it's sometimes like a old pair of shoes that you just don't want to part with. It took me somtime to adjust to the III after playing the same VI for 25 years. I am having that same trouble adjusting the 36 after 3 years with the III. I don't switch horns like mouthpieces but the Refererce horns really intrigued me so I bought one. The III and Reference each have their own characteristics and it will be a matter of playing them more and then making a final decision on what to stick with.

Ron
User ID: 9467593 Dec 6th 12:38 PM
I'm just a beginning sax player (5 months now), but have played guitar for almost 10 years. It's normal for guitarists to have multiple instruments and amps, changing from one axe to a quite different one (say, Strat to Les Paul) routinely. I have the same approach to saxes already: I have a number of tenors and sops, and two handfuls of mouthpieces and a dozen boxes of different reeds. I am always changing something and playing through many of these horns and pieces every week. It's hard for me to imagine playing the same sax, same mouthpiece, and same reed for years. Like guitars, everything sax is subjective, as Berg-Man says. I haven't found the Holy Grail of saxes, mouthpieces, and reeds yet, so I'll keep on having fun looking for them (hee hee).

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Dec 6th 1:56 PM
Berg-Man, I'm with ya. 'Tis very much the story of "old comfortable shoes" - I only get rid of them when they go from comfortable to painful. My III was a welcome relief from the BA. And, as familiar I was with my III, the Ref just takes me places I haven't visited in a long while.

Ron, I've been playing guitar for over 30 years so I understand the whole Guitar Acquistion Syndrome (GAS) and the ease with which one may pass from one instrument to another. On the other hand, when I finally settled down to only two electrics and and two acoustics - each for specific pallettes and playing genres, I found that I was better able to get everything those instruments had to offer. Similarly, as I narrow my options regarding horns and mouthpeices, I get more out of each rather than relying on one tone per tool.

Go for the tone. Enjoy the Quest.

Bob
User ID: 9272753 Jan 11th 9:56 AM
Ron,

It's gonna be hard for you too really improve sound wise if you keep switching mouthpieces and horns. You need to spend some time on a horn and mouthpice to see what you can really get out of it. I've been playing for 2 years(after a 20 year layoff) on one tenor and a pretty good metal Link 7*. My tone and volume are constantly improving and it's fun to be able to push the tone from mellow/lush to hard/edgy(as edgy as I can now make a Link go). As I progress I believe my tone will develope and the tonal color spectrum will widen(at least that's what I'm striving for). So, take it easy on the mouthpiece switching at least. See how far you can go with just one. You'll be surprised.

Bob

Son of Zorn
User ID: 0164614 Jan 11th 9:25 PM
Robin, i was at the LA show and hung out with Wayne. He picked out a Serie III sop with silver neck and a ref36. I cannot say if he currently gigs with them. I do know they were sent to his house though.

CHeesy Joe
User ID: 0436494 Jan 11th 11:36 PM
I gotta go with Bob, Ron, if you really are a beginner, you might do yourself a favor & pick 1 horn, mouthpiece & setup & SELL THE OTHER HORNS.

And dont switch for at least 5 years! A sax is not a guitar, you are now, at your stage, developing many fine musclature in your face, oral cavity, throat & lungs and switching between 2 or 3 different horns every day is VERY CONTERPRODUCTIVE to you development--no matter how fun it may seem.

Ah, the problems of adult beginners, to much knowledge, to many ideas & questions--thats why its so easy to develop when youre a kid, you have such a clearer mind.

Have a child's mind, Ron, beginner's mind as they say in Zen.

ScottyHoop
User ID: 1230224 Jan 14th 9:09 PM
I've been hearing alot about necks lately. I play on a III sop, alto, and tenor. Tenor being my main axe right now. I've never messed around with different necks. How much of a difference does the next really make and where can I try them out or get more info? Any help would be great!! Thanks!
Scott

Bootman
User ID: 8875883 Jan 15th 5:20 AM
Check out the neck threads.

Prince
User ID: 0136334 Jan 17th 9:31 PM
Ron, I think Bob and Cheesy Joe are right. I was playing the same saxophone and mouthpiece for almost 10 years. Changing too many mouthpieces still can screw up my embrochure, even now, my 16th year of playing.

Orlen
User ID: 6918503 Jan 20th 9:44 AM

I have got say that you quys are confusing me. I have been contemplating a switch to a reference 36 for a month or two. I am currently playing on a Super 80 II. I reall y like the tone of Justo Almario who I believe plays a balanced action. Would I be better off ;looking for one of these old horns or a new 36.

Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Jan 20th 11:27 AM
Orlen, what's the confusion?

Try a Ref 36 - you'll know right away if it's for you. The first five minutes with mine were wondrous. I played a BA tenor for 15 years and love the punch and resonance of the Ref 36. The original BA's tended to have some stuffiness in the palm keys and sharp low B and Bb because the bell was too short. They were great feeling horns and wonderful in their time. The Ref 36 is not exactly a BA but it is great in its own right.

On the other hand, a good BA is going to cost about the same as a Ref horn and may need an overhaul. If you can find one from a dealer like Gayle at VintageSax.com or Mark at Saxquest.com that has gone through the horn and guarantees your satisfaction, you may find a great horn.

Tenor Monster
User ID: 0220464 Jan 27th 12:02 PM
Try a ser 3 red brass neck on the 54-tell me what you think-snug fit major intonation improvement is what i think psss-you may need to adjust the octave very slightly

Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Jan 27th 12:07 PM
Big difference in the neck angle between the III and the 54. I didn't think much of it when playing a III all the time. Now I much prefer the 36/54 angle.

Next 20 Messages

Patrick User ID: 8722703	Dec 5th 9:21 PM On a separate post, Dr. G mentioned that Wayne Shorter is on the Ref 36? Thanks for the impressive info. What other big names are using the Reference Horns? Apparently Michael Brecker used the 54 in a concert several months ago and had good things to say to Selmer about the horn. Is the 54 his main axe now, or was it a momentary marketing thing? I hope I don't come accross as a poser being so concerned about who plays what. The greats know alot more about the sax than I do. I can't help but respect and take into consideration their opinions, especially the ones who are not PAID to endorse certain instruments.
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 6th 12:23 AM Brecker is using a modified neck on the ref 54. I am awaiting one for my ref 54 to see wether it turns it into a number 1 horn or wether the horn gets on sold.
Patrick User ID: 8722703	Dec 6th 1:34 AM Bootman, Always appreciate your advice. Many, many thanks! So how did you go about getting a modified neck for the 54? I remember you posting about silver necks...Is the one you are waiting for silver? Is this an after market item Selmer is selling to the public or is it custom just for the top cats? Looking forward to hearing about your experience with the new neck when it comes. Thanks!!!!! Hope you are enjoying your summer weather!
Robin Watts User ID: 2595894	Dec 6th 2:02 AM Gerry Bergonzi reecently played a gig with a ref 36 according to the Saxophone Corner, the Selmer's discussion page. Dr G, where did you hear about Shorter playing the 36. Has it become its main horn? Has he recorded with it? Robin
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 6th 3:58 AM Patrick, I am still waiting for this neck. It is hand selected ref 54 neck that has been opened to .503 and has then been silver plated. Very specific type stuff but the fellow I spoke who is doing this neck is on holiday and will be back soon. I will know more when I have had a chance to play it. I am not a paid endorser of Selmer products and I am probably about as anti-Selmer as you can get. I bought this horn purely on merit, it played well and had a lot of potential. My biggest problem is that I want it to do more and I can hear that it is in there but i can't release it as yet. This is what is frustrating me at the moment. I haven't given up on it yet but I have been close at times, and then at other times it has done exactly what I have asked it too and performed flawlessly. The famed 36 neck on 54 trick is not so crash hot either, I have tried it with 2 different 36 necks.and it doesn't have anywhere near enough (for Mike R) grunt with the 36 neck. The solid silver neck adds twice as much presence and volume to the horn. I want more, there is still something within this horn that needs to be unlocked. It is great jazz horn in it's present incarnation.
Berg-Man User ID: 8381693	Dec 6th 8:39 AM Jerry lives and plays in my area. He owns a 36 and a 54, he has 4 necks for the 36 alone. Jerry also owns many other horns but mostly I see him still playing his old Selmer Super and sounding great. He's probably most comfortable on that instrument but can make any horn sound wonderful. I've talked to other pro players who have played the Ref. horns and most still prefer their old VI's. Over the next 5-10 years after the initial hype dies down I don't think you will see every one switching over to the Refs. They are very good horns but certainly not the end all for everyone.
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Dec 6th 10:20 AM Robin, I heard about it from a member of SotW. He was in the shop when Wayne was buying a Ref 36 and a Serie III sop. Berg-Man, if I had a great playing anything that I had used for the last 10 years, I wouldn't switch either. But when I found that the Ref 36 answered all the shortcomings of my BA, I was very happy. If it could feel as smooth as a well-played-in horn with 40 years experience, I'd truly be estatic.
Berg-Man User ID: 8381693	Dec 6th 11:30 AM Doc, Saxophones are very subjective, how many times have you heard cats say that thier VI is the best VI they have ever played. I think it's sometimes like a old pair of shoes that you just don't want to part with. It took me somtime to adjust to the III after playing the same VI for 25 years. I am having that same trouble adjusting the 36 after 3 years with the III. I don't switch horns like mouthpieces but the Refererce horns really intrigued me so I bought one. The III and Reference each have their own characteristics and it will be a matter of playing them more and then making a final decision on what to stick with.
Ron User ID: 9467593	Dec 6th 12:38 PM I'm just a beginning sax player (5 months now), but have played guitar for almost 10 years. It's normal for guitarists to have multiple instruments and amps, changing from one axe to a quite different one (say, Strat to Les Paul) routinely. I have the same approach to saxes already: I have a number of tenors and sops, and two handfuls of mouthpieces and a dozen boxes of different reeds. I am always changing something and playing through many of these horns and pieces every week. It's hard for me to imagine playing the same sax, same mouthpiece, and same reed for years. Like guitars, everything sax is subjective, as Berg-Man says. I haven't found the Holy Grail of saxes, mouthpieces, and reeds yet, so I'll keep on having fun looking for them (hee hee).
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Dec 6th 1:56 PM Berg-Man, I'm with ya. 'Tis very much the story of "old comfortable shoes" - I only get rid of them when they go from comfortable to painful. My III was a welcome relief from the BA. And, as familiar I was with my III, the Ref just takes me places I haven't visited in a long while. Ron, I've been playing guitar for over 30 years so I understand the whole Guitar Acquistion Syndrome (GAS) and the ease with which one may pass from one instrument to another. On the other hand, when I finally settled down to only two electrics and and two acoustics - each for specific pallettes and playing genres, I found that I was better able to get everything those instruments had to offer. Similarly, as I narrow my options regarding horns and mouthpeices, I get more out of each rather than relying on one tone per tool. Go for the tone. Enjoy the Quest.
Bob User ID: 9272753	Jan 11th 9:56 AM Ron, It's gonna be hard for you too really improve sound wise if you keep switching mouthpieces and horns. You need to spend some time on a horn and mouthpice to see what you can really get out of it. I've been playing for 2 years(after a 20 year layoff) on one tenor and a pretty good metal Link 7*. My tone and volume are constantly improving and it's fun to be able to push the tone from mellow/lush to hard/edgy(as edgy as I can now make a Link go). As I progress I believe my tone will develope and the tonal color spectrum will widen(at least that's what I'm striving for). So, take it easy on the mouthpiece switching at least. See how far you can go with just one. You'll be surprised. Bob
Son of Zorn User ID: 0164614	Jan 11th 9:25 PM Robin, i was at the LA show and hung out with Wayne. He picked out a Serie III sop with silver neck and a ref36. I cannot say if he currently gigs with them. I do know they were sent to his house though.
CHeesy Joe User ID: 0436494	Jan 11th 11:36 PM I gotta go with Bob, Ron, if you really are a beginner, you might do yourself a favor & pick 1 horn, mouthpiece & setup & SELL THE OTHER HORNS. And dont switch for at least 5 years! A sax is not a guitar, you are now, at your stage, developing many fine musclature in your face, oral cavity, throat & lungs and switching between 2 or 3 different horns every day is VERY CONTERPRODUCTIVE to you development--no matter how fun it may seem. Ah, the problems of adult beginners, to much knowledge, to many ideas & questions--thats why its so easy to develop when youre a kid, you have such a clearer mind. Have a child's mind, Ron, beginner's mind as they say in Zen.
ScottyHoop User ID: 1230224	Jan 14th 9:09 PM I've been hearing alot about necks lately. I play on a III sop, alto, and tenor. Tenor being my main axe right now. I've never messed around with different necks. How much of a difference does the next really make and where can I try them out or get more info? Any help would be great!! Thanks! Scott
Bootman User ID: 8875883	Jan 15th 5:20 AM Check out the neck threads.
Prince User ID: 0136334	Jan 17th 9:31 PM Ron, I think Bob and Cheesy Joe are right. I was playing the same saxophone and mouthpiece for almost 10 years. Changing too many mouthpieces still can screw up my embrochure, even now, my 16th year of playing.
Orlen User ID: 6918503	Jan 20th 9:44 AM I have got say that you quys are confusing me. I have been contemplating a switch to a reference 36 for a month or two. I am currently playing on a Super 80 II. I reall y like the tone of Justo Almario who I believe plays a balanced action. Would I be better off ;looking for one of these old horns or a new 36.
Dr G User ID: 7468553	Jan 20th 11:27 AM Orlen, what's the confusion? Try a Ref 36 - you'll know right away if it's for you. The first five minutes with mine were wondrous. I played a BA tenor for 15 years and love the punch and resonance of the Ref 36. The original BA's tended to have some stuffiness in the palm keys and sharp low B and Bb because the bell was too short. They were great feeling horns and wonderful in their time. The Ref 36 is not exactly a BA but it is great in its own right. On the other hand, a good BA is going to cost about the same as a Ref horn and may need an overhaul. If you can find one from a dealer like Gayle at VintageSax.com or Mark at Saxquest.com that has gone through the horn and guarantees your satisfaction, you may find a great horn.
Tenor Monster User ID: 0220464	Jan 27th 12:02 PM Try a ser 3 red brass neck on the 54-tell me what you think-snug fit major intonation improvement is what i think psss-you may need to adjust the octave very slightly
Dr G User ID: 7468553	Jan 27th 12:07 PM Big difference in the neck angle between the III and the 54. I didn't think much of it when playing a III all the time. Now I much prefer the 36/54 angle.