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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / Reference 36 vs. Balanced Action

Next 20 Messages

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Nov 29th 2:13 AM
One more request.
I would love to hear your input on the Reference 36 vs. the Original Balanced Action.
I request your kind input for a reason. I will be purchasing a Tenor within a few months, and want it to be the horn that will last a lifetime, and was hoping for feedback from those who have owned one or more of these horns, or at least had a lengthy "test runs" and can share their experiences. Of course the final decision will be based on my personal experience, but it would be helpful to hear about your experiences as well.
Thank you comrades!!!!

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Nov 29th 9:59 AM
OK, I played a Balanced Action for a while (15 years, 20?, I forget). When I went to a Serie III, I thought the horn was off (intonation-wise). Turns out that I was so used to compensating for pitches that when I played a horn that didn't need it, I was messing it all up! More time with the tuner showed that the horn didn't need my help to play in pitch. The BA also had chronically stuffy palm keys and sharp low B and Bb.

Not too long after I bought the III, the Ref horns came to market. I resisted for two years before I caved. Now I play a Ref 36 and love it for its resonance and punch. For me, it's an expressive horn with an improved mechanism and free of the idiosyncracies of the old BA. I miss the beautiful ornate engraving of the BA but when it comes to a player's horn, the Ref 36 is working well for me.

A pleasant side effect is that the lower palm keys of the 36 (compared to the III) have let me readjust my posture and eliminate a RSI that was developing in my left hand. That also means that although I still have my III, it is not a longterm stablemate. It is, in fact, for sale.

Tom
User ID: 0352454 Nov 29th 7:51 PM
To: Patrick

I have played on a 1940 B/A for 20 years now. I actually corresponded with George (above) about B/A's a couple of years ago. (maybe he remembers me...maybe he doesn't !!)

I play way more Alto then Tenor and I play on a 1963 Mark VI Alto which I really love. I am not a professional musician but rather a 'weekend warrior'.

I have fought intonation on this B/A for all of the 20 years I have owned it. And like George says, no matter what you do...the lower notes tend to play SHARP!

I became so frustrated that I once put the horn away for SEVEN years and refused to play it and played only Alto.

Well...in the last couple of years I have really been trying to stay with it and work with it and make peace with it. I bought an older Selmer Soloist Long Shank C* (modified) mouthpiece and a modified Otto Link metal #5 facing.

Both of the mouthpieces play better than anything that I have tried in the past - I have been leaning more towards the Link. I think that for the earlier years I was trying to play on mouthpieces that I just couldn't handle chop-wise.

I currently own only one Tenor but on my list of things to do is to eventually buy an SBA and a VI Tenor. Kind of curiously, I like the feel of the B/A keywork.

I cannot give you a comparison to a Reference because I have never played one. But I can tell you that in comparison to my Mark VI Alto, the B/A horn has a host of problems that the VI does not have.

There were an awful lot of musicians who played the hell out of them for awhile though - back in the '40's and '50's.

I think that George summed it up when he said that he found that he was doing a lot of 'compensating' when playing his B/A - and after doing it for so long, he didn't even realize it until he got his III !!

My B/A is gorgeous...Silver plated with no engraving. Almost anytime I play anywhere with it, Sax players will come over at break and look at it and ask me about it.

It is not that they can't be played but...damn...they work you hard. From my standpoint, not being a professional, it is hard enough to get up there and play the best you can weekend after weekend...let alone to have to fight the horn while you are doing it !!

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Nov 29th 8:39 PM
Enjoying the responses.
Please keep them coming!

amasax
User ID: 2289444 Nov 30th 10:50 PM
I have a variety of BA & SBA horns, and an interesting setup to try for tenor is a BA neck on an SBA body...the neck gives it a bit more edge, more similar to the tone from a real BA horn, and the SBA body/bore gives the sound a bit more ring and some better tuning. However, I really do like the BA neck/body setup quite a bit, particularly the fact that the keys/tone holes are in a straight line & not offset on the right hand, like later horns. Whomever thought that offset right hand was more comfortable hasn't ever taken a serious look at ergonomics.
Tough comparison, some pro/con on both. Haven't tried the Ref 36/54 yet, am kinda hoping one of these'll do the trick for a vintage sound, as BA/SBA horns are getting harder/$$$$$ to find.

On alto, I think the SBA really has it down much better than the BA horns. Plus, SBA horns w/F# are occasionally findable, whereas I've only come across one BA alto w/F#(got in/out of that one in the 1970's). Big part of the sound is the neck. Did an interesting swap a few weeks ago as a test - swapped necks between a silver SBA alto & a gold plated Series II. Quite surprised, because the majority of tone(>90%) on EACH came from the neck. When swapped, each horn sounded like the other one did.

Tom
User ID: 0352454 Dec 1st 12:31 PM
Amasax

A couple of years ago I tried the neck swap that you referred to above...an SBA neck on my B/A and vice-versa.

For these 2 particular horns, each one played better with it's OWN neck. My B/A - 29XXX...the SBA was 52XXX.

And...only once have I ever played on an SBA Alto - but when I did...I loved it! I would like to get one of them too! As a backup to, or even as a companion to my VI !!!

ving
User ID: 8325843 Dec 2nd 4:14 PM
I owned a BA for a while, very nice horn but this particular one felt a little a little stuffy--possibly because it was relacquered. I have also play tested two 36's, and they were substantially different from one another. The first was quite dark and didn't strike me as very different from a series II. However, just recently had a chance to play another and this horn was great; very punchy, and the action felt a little lighter. The sound was very complete, and I really enjoyed it--much to my surprise. It has a character very similar to the old BA, but there is something about it that I can't quite put my finger on that is different--something that makes it feel like the 36 has a limiter on it or something. This second horn I played is very free blowing, but still heavier and a little more resistant that even my BA. Compared to my Mark VI, I really like the tonal quality of the 36--very round and punchy, as where my VI seems a little spread.

Robin Watts
User ID: 2595894 Dec 5th 5:12 PM
I owned a BA for 10 years would not have changed it for anything until I tried and immediatly bought the Ref 36. The guys at Selmer surely did their best to capture the BAs spirit and put it in the 36. Coltrane's Soultrane's sound comes out from the 36 so easy that is is incredible. Same with contemporary sounds, like Joshua Redeman's (who also plays a BA). By the way,I get both sounds, or very close with a Morgan 8M- superb mouthpiece!!
The rose gold lacquer of the 36 makes it, in my humble opinion, the most elegant and coolest looking modern sax.

Robin

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Dec 5th 5:42 PM
Amen. (although I wasn't going for coolest looking - and I might even give that award to Inderbinden anyhow)

Add Wayne Shorter to the list of Who's Who with a Ref 36. And me... even if I don't count. ;/

Bob
User ID: 1314254 Dec 5th 8:48 PM
Dr. G,

Was your series III horn a decent horn. I mean would you still be playing it if the 36 had not been introduced or would you be looking for a new horn?

Thanks,
Bob

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Dec 5th 9:26 PM
Dr. G,
What type of music do you play?
I would love to hear you on your 36 with that resonance and punch you speak of.
If I were doing only Jazz standards, the 36 would be the one, I think. I have tried a few out in the store, and found the sound rich and the action a dream, but it is hard to be definative about the sound without playing with a live combo.
Do you find the 36 to have the GUTZ for the occassional R&B as well?

Tom
User ID: 0352454 Dec 5th 9:28 PM
Robin

Coincidentally, I played a Morgan 8 on my B/A also but the damn thing wanted to fall off the cork because the bore was so big. I had the neck re-corked THICK to really give this mouthpiece a try but I just didn't like it. I played it about a year before 'retiring' it.

People...and mouthpieces are different...

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 6th 12:21 AM
If you like a BA sound then a 36 would be a good choice for you but if it is a more present sound that you're after then try a 54 with a silver neck. The bottom end is stronger on the 54, even though it has the standard Selmer lack of strength in the upper range.

Compare your new ref series horn to any of vintage tenors and see wethert it really stacks up. I have found my ref 54, even the enhanced version to be lacking in this company. It is exactly for these reasons that I got fed up with the Selmer sound in the first place. If modern music is what you're playing then I would be looking further afield because the ref horns (both 36 and 54) just don't have enough power to compete.

I am coming round to the realisation that no matter what I do to this ref 54, it won't have the sound that I am after. Having said all that, the ref 54 is a great straight ahead jazz horn but not a good RnB horn. For RnB, do yourself a favour and find a The Martin tenor. For Jazz, my Buescher tenor still is the best I have found.

The other thing is not to be overawed by all the hype, play the instrument for yourself and see if it is good for you. Check out as many pro tenors as you can so that you can make an informed decision.

Bill
User ID: 0512724 Dec 6th 3:03 AM
Patrick,
I own a B/A,, 34xxx.. I bought it new, and I just love it..Stuffy??? not if you have the right mp. I use a very old berg metal and it works great. My horn has never been relaquered but does have custom resonators on it. I'd strongly recommend one if your looking.

Bob
User ID: 9272753 Dec 6th 8:29 AM
Bootman,

I can see your not satisfied with the Ref. horns. I was wondering what your take is on the series III horns(sound/action). Better, worse, the same as the Ref. horns? I'm considering a Series III as I can't really afford the Ref horns and the vintage horns I've played just bug me when it comes to the keywork.

Thanks,
Bob

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 6th 3:01 PM
The closest thing to your criteria is probably a Keilwerth. Remember you can adjust to keywork, I had to readjust to the more modern keywork of the ref 54. Try a Martin if you want a more modern key work horn with a vintage sound. These Martins are still a reasonably well kept secret but it is changing.

How well a vintage horn plays is really determined by the quality of the repair work done to the horn. If you buy a vintage horn spend the extra money and get an overhaul done by one of the reputable high quality repairers.

The series III are good horns but have a thinner core sound than I prefer for my personal sound concept. They do play well though and many people are very happy with these horns.

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Dec 6th 3:45 PM
Bob, my III is a great horn. It had to be to replace my Balanced Action. I play in two very demanding ensembles and require the utmost in response, tonal flexibility, and playability. If the Ref 36 had not come along, the III would still be my first choice. If I had thought to find a repairman/jeweler to recut the palm keys to mimic the left hand position of the Balanced Action, I might still be playing it.

Bootman is right (up to a point) about adjusting to various key layouts - after all, I do play sop, flute, and many other instruments. I just had a problem with a joint in my left forefinger that was becoming an annoying distraction (I was scared that if I didn't change my ergonomic ways, I wouldn't be playing much longer).

Mark Hollingsworth
User ID: 9781133 Dec 6th 6:59 PM
Patrick,
Check out my recording of the Ref 36 vrs the MK VI.
Of course, it is a recording, not live - but I think it will give an idea of the two horns.
Well, these two 'Particular' horns, with this MP, and me playing...

Guardala 'Traditional' gold, #3 Guardala reed.

http://www.olympus.net/personal/markh/

I'm not all that happy with my playing, but it will give you an idea anyway.
Let me know.
Mark

Patrick
User ID: 8722703 Dec 6th 11:48 PM
Mark Hollingsworth,
You are the man!
I just checked out the link and listened to your recording several times. Once with the MVI only, the next time with the 36 only, then twice with one speaker on each ear. The ladies at the office looked at me like I was a nut when putting my head right between the speakers, but what the heck, I am on break.
You are so awesome for doing that!
I learned a bunch, especially concerning the slight difference people call the "centered" Mark VI sound vs. the "Round" Balance Action (36) sound. I enjoyed them both. I assume the difference would be more pronounced when listening live; Do you think so?

Was the 36 played closer to the mic, or do you just get more projection from the 36?

Which did you record first? I kind of felt like you might have ventured a bit closer to the limits on one sax more than the other (I won't say which one...I would not want to influence anybody elses opninon before they listen). I thought maybe it was because you might have been more warmed up on one than the other, or maybe one horn just avails itself to more of that.

You did not need the humble disclaimer about your playing by the way; You are a superb musician, and I feel honored that you would take the time to offer your advice as you have.

Bob
User ID: 9272753 Dec 7th 9:01 AM
DrG and Bootman,

Thanks for the response on my series III questions. Looks like that's how I'll go unless when I try it out I don't like it.

Bob

Next 20 Messages

Patrick User ID: 8722703	Nov 29th 2:13 AM One more request. I would love to hear your input on the Reference 36 vs. the Original Balanced Action. I request your kind input for a reason. I will be purchasing a Tenor within a few months, and want it to be the horn that will last a lifetime, and was hoping for feedback from those who have owned one or more of these horns, or at least had a lengthy "test runs" and can share their experiences. Of course the final decision will be based on my personal experience, but it would be helpful to hear about your experiences as well. Thank you comrades!!!!
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Nov 29th 9:59 AM OK, I played a Balanced Action for a while (15 years, 20?, I forget). When I went to a Serie III, I thought the horn was off (intonation-wise). Turns out that I was so used to compensating for pitches that when I played a horn that didn't need it, I was messing it all up! More time with the tuner showed that the horn didn't need my help to play in pitch. The BA also had chronically stuffy palm keys and sharp low B and Bb. Not too long after I bought the III, the Ref horns came to market. I resisted for two years before I caved. Now I play a Ref 36 and love it for its resonance and punch. For me, it's an expressive horn with an improved mechanism and free of the idiosyncracies of the old BA. I miss the beautiful ornate engraving of the BA but when it comes to a player's horn, the Ref 36 is working well for me. A pleasant side effect is that the lower palm keys of the 36 (compared to the III) have let me readjust my posture and eliminate a RSI that was developing in my left hand. That also means that although I still have my III, it is not a longterm stablemate. It is, in fact, for sale.
Tom User ID: 0352454	Nov 29th 7:51 PM To: Patrick I have played on a 1940 B/A for 20 years now. I actually corresponded with George (above) about B/A's a couple of years ago. (maybe he remembers me...maybe he doesn't !!) I play way more Alto then Tenor and I play on a 1963 Mark VI Alto which I really love. I am not a professional musician but rather a 'weekend warrior'. I have fought intonation on this B/A for all of the 20 years I have owned it. And like George says, no matter what you do...the lower notes tend to play SHARP! I became so frustrated that I once put the horn away for SEVEN years and refused to play it and played only Alto. Well...in the last couple of years I have really been trying to stay with it and work with it and make peace with it. I bought an older Selmer Soloist Long Shank C* (modified) mouthpiece and a modified Otto Link metal #5 facing. Both of the mouthpieces play better than anything that I have tried in the past - I have been leaning more towards the Link. I think that for the earlier years I was trying to play on mouthpieces that I just couldn't handle chop-wise. I currently own only one Tenor but on my list of things to do is to eventually buy an SBA and a VI Tenor. Kind of curiously, I like the feel of the B/A keywork. I cannot give you a comparison to a Reference because I have never played one. But I can tell you that in comparison to my Mark VI Alto, the B/A horn has a host of problems that the VI does not have. There were an awful lot of musicians who played the hell out of them for awhile though - back in the '40's and '50's. I think that George summed it up when he said that he found that he was doing a lot of 'compensating' when playing his B/A - and after doing it for so long, he didn't even realize it until he got his III !! My B/A is gorgeous...Silver plated with no engraving. Almost anytime I play anywhere with it, Sax players will come over at break and look at it and ask me about it. It is not that they can't be played but...damn...they work you hard. From my standpoint, not being a professional, it is hard enough to get up there and play the best you can weekend after weekend...let alone to have to fight the horn while you are doing it !!
Patrick User ID: 8722703	Nov 29th 8:39 PM Enjoying the responses. Please keep them coming!
amasax User ID: 2289444	Nov 30th 10:50 PM I have a variety of BA & SBA horns, and an interesting setup to try for tenor is a BA neck on an SBA body...the neck gives it a bit more edge, more similar to the tone from a real BA horn, and the SBA body/bore gives the sound a bit more ring and some better tuning. However, I really do like the BA neck/body setup quite a bit, particularly the fact that the keys/tone holes are in a straight line & not offset on the right hand, like later horns. Whomever thought that offset right hand was more comfortable hasn't ever taken a serious look at ergonomics. Tough comparison, some pro/con on both. Haven't tried the Ref 36/54 yet, am kinda hoping one of these'll do the trick for a vintage sound, as BA/SBA horns are getting harder/$$$$$ to find. On alto, I think the SBA really has it down much better than the BA horns. Plus, SBA horns w/F# are occasionally findable, whereas I've only come across one BA alto w/F#(got in/out of that one in the 1970's). Big part of the sound is the neck. Did an interesting swap a few weeks ago as a test - swapped necks between a silver SBA alto & a gold plated Series II. Quite surprised, because the majority of tone(>90%) on EACH came from the neck. When swapped, each horn sounded like the other one did.
Tom User ID: 0352454	Dec 1st 12:31 PM Amasax A couple of years ago I tried the neck swap that you referred to above...an SBA neck on my B/A and vice-versa. For these 2 particular horns, each one played better with it's OWN neck. My B/A - 29XXX...the SBA was 52XXX. And...only once have I ever played on an SBA Alto - but when I did...I loved it! I would like to get one of them too! As a backup to, or even as a companion to my VI !!!
ving User ID: 8325843	Dec 2nd 4:14 PM I owned a BA for a while, very nice horn but this particular one felt a little a little stuffy--possibly because it was relacquered. I have also play tested two 36's, and they were substantially different from one another. The first was quite dark and didn't strike me as very different from a series II. However, just recently had a chance to play another and this horn was great; very punchy, and the action felt a little lighter. The sound was very complete, and I really enjoyed it--much to my surprise. It has a character very similar to the old BA, but there is something about it that I can't quite put my finger on that is different--something that makes it feel like the 36 has a limiter on it or something. This second horn I played is very free blowing, but still heavier and a little more resistant that even my BA. Compared to my Mark VI, I really like the tonal quality of the 36--very round and punchy, as where my VI seems a little spread.
Robin Watts User ID: 2595894	Dec 5th 5:12 PM I owned a BA for 10 years would not have changed it for anything until I tried and immediatly bought the Ref 36. The guys at Selmer surely did their best to capture the BAs spirit and put it in the 36. Coltrane's Soultrane's sound comes out from the 36 so easy that is is incredible. Same with contemporary sounds, like Joshua Redeman's (who also plays a BA). By the way,I get both sounds, or very close with a Morgan 8M- superb mouthpiece!! The rose gold lacquer of the 36 makes it, in my humble opinion, the most elegant and coolest looking modern sax. Robin
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Dec 5th 5:42 PM Amen. (although I wasn't going for coolest looking - and I might even give that award to Inderbinden anyhow) Add Wayne Shorter to the list of Who's Who with a Ref 36. And me... even if I don't count. ;/
Bob User ID: 1314254	Dec 5th 8:48 PM Dr. G, Was your series III horn a decent horn. I mean would you still be playing it if the 36 had not been introduced or would you be looking for a new horn? Thanks, Bob
Patrick User ID: 8722703	Dec 5th 9:26 PM Dr. G, What type of music do you play? I would love to hear you on your 36 with that resonance and punch you speak of. If I were doing only Jazz standards, the 36 would be the one, I think. I have tried a few out in the store, and found the sound rich and the action a dream, but it is hard to be definative about the sound without playing with a live combo. Do you find the 36 to have the GUTZ for the occassional R&B as well?
Tom User ID: 0352454	Dec 5th 9:28 PM Robin Coincidentally, I played a Morgan 8 on my B/A also but the damn thing wanted to fall off the cork because the bore was so big. I had the neck re-corked THICK to really give this mouthpiece a try but I just didn't like it. I played it about a year before 'retiring' it. People...and mouthpieces are different...
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 6th 12:21 AM If you like a BA sound then a 36 would be a good choice for you but if it is a more present sound that you're after then try a 54 with a silver neck. The bottom end is stronger on the 54, even though it has the standard Selmer lack of strength in the upper range. Compare your new ref series horn to any of vintage tenors and see wethert it really stacks up. I have found my ref 54, even the enhanced version to be lacking in this company. It is exactly for these reasons that I got fed up with the Selmer sound in the first place. If modern music is what you're playing then I would be looking further afield because the ref horns (both 36 and 54) just don't have enough power to compete. I am coming round to the realisation that no matter what I do to this ref 54, it won't have the sound that I am after. Having said all that, the ref 54 is a great straight ahead jazz horn but not a good RnB horn. For RnB, do yourself a favour and find a The Martin tenor. For Jazz, my Buescher tenor still is the best I have found. The other thing is not to be overawed by all the hype, play the instrument for yourself and see if it is good for you. Check out as many pro tenors as you can so that you can make an informed decision.
Bill User ID: 0512724	Dec 6th 3:03 AM Patrick, I own a B/A,, 34xxx.. I bought it new, and I just love it..Stuffy??? not if you have the right mp. I use a very old berg metal and it works great. My horn has never been relaquered but does have custom resonators on it. I'd strongly recommend one if your looking.
Bob User ID: 9272753	Dec 6th 8:29 AM Bootman, I can see your not satisfied with the Ref. horns. I was wondering what your take is on the series III horns(sound/action). Better, worse, the same as the Ref. horns? I'm considering a Series III as I can't really afford the Ref horns and the vintage horns I've played just bug me when it comes to the keywork. Thanks, Bob
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 6th 3:01 PM The closest thing to your criteria is probably a Keilwerth. Remember you can adjust to keywork, I had to readjust to the more modern keywork of the ref 54. Try a Martin if you want a more modern key work horn with a vintage sound. These Martins are still a reasonably well kept secret but it is changing. How well a vintage horn plays is really determined by the quality of the repair work done to the horn. If you buy a vintage horn spend the extra money and get an overhaul done by one of the reputable high quality repairers. The series III are good horns but have a thinner core sound than I prefer for my personal sound concept. They do play well though and many people are very happy with these horns.
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Dec 6th 3:45 PM Bob, my III is a great horn. It had to be to replace my Balanced Action. I play in two very demanding ensembles and require the utmost in response, tonal flexibility, and playability. If the Ref 36 had not come along, the III would still be my first choice. If I had thought to find a repairman/jeweler to recut the palm keys to mimic the left hand position of the Balanced Action, I might still be playing it. Bootman is right (up to a point) about adjusting to various key layouts - after all, I do play sop, flute, and many other instruments. I just had a problem with a joint in my left forefinger that was becoming an annoying distraction (I was scared that if I didn't change my ergonomic ways, I wouldn't be playing much longer).
Mark Hollingsworth User ID: 9781133	Dec 6th 6:59 PM Patrick, Check out my recording of the Ref 36 vrs the MK VI. Of course, it is a recording, not live - but I think it will give an idea of the two horns. Well, these two 'Particular' horns, with this MP, and me playing... Guardala 'Traditional' gold, #3 Guardala reed. http://www.olympus.net/personal/markh/ I'm not all that happy with my playing, but it will give you an idea anyway. Let me know. Mark
Patrick User ID: 8722703	Dec 6th 11:48 PM Mark Hollingsworth, You are the man! I just checked out the link and listened to your recording several times. Once with the MVI only, the next time with the 36 only, then twice with one speaker on each ear. The ladies at the office looked at me like I was a nut when putting my head right between the speakers, but what the heck, I am on break. You are so awesome for doing that! I learned a bunch, especially concerning the slight difference people call the "centered" Mark VI sound vs. the "Round" Balance Action (36) sound. I enjoyed them both. I assume the difference would be more pronounced when listening live; Do you think so? Was the 36 played closer to the mic, or do you just get more projection from the 36? Which did you record first? I kind of felt like you might have ventured a bit closer to the limits on one sax more than the other (I won't say which one...I would not want to influence anybody elses opninon before they listen). I thought maybe it was because you might have been more warmed up on one than the other, or maybe one horn just avails itself to more of that. You did not need the humble disclaimer about your playing by the way; You are a superb musician, and I feel honored that you would take the time to offer your advice as you have.
Bob User ID: 9272753	Dec 7th 9:01 AM DrG and Bootman, Thanks for the response on my series III questions. Looks like that's how I'll go unless when I try it out I don't like it. Bob