Sax on the Web

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / relacquer mark VI?

Lenny
User ID: 0952054 Dec 10th 3:45 PM
I know this topic has come up before but i can't find it.
I have a chance to look @ a Mark VI tenor around 90XXX that may be relacquered. i know that relacquer will probably lower the resale value - but will it neccessarily hurt the sound?
Is a good relacquer job OK?
I will be able to take it to a good tech who can verify if its been relaquered & how well.
What should I look for on my own though?

Dr G
User ID: 9356783 Dec 10th 5:25 PM
Don't look, listen. If it doesn't play well and sound good, it's not worth it. Take along a tuner to check intonation - some were bad, others were worse.

Go for the tone.

tungp
User ID: 0952054 Dec 11th 1:00 PM
Lenny, there's some disagreement on this, about the reality of relacquering in terms of effects. Most vintage sax specialists will at least agree that a heavy coat of lacquer, or a heavy removal of metal necessarily affects the performance of the saxophone. If a pronounced difference will make a significant difference, then any change will make at least some difference. Whether that difference is "good" or "bad," or is discernible to any given player's ear, is another question.

In vintage saxophone pricing, there are no absolutes. Price is dependent on seller and buyer mutually agreeing to a price, whether it's by the seller or the buyer, or both, having a bottom line that overlaps. That said, relacquering, in the abstract, definitely hurts the horn's resale value. On the other hand, if a player comes across an original lacquer VI, and a relacquer that plays better, and is able to A/B them side-by-side, who's to say that player will not pay more for the relacquer that plays better?

I would, if I didn't come across as many horns as I do.

The question doesn't come down to good relacquer job versus bad relacquer job. It comes down to risk. There's a more risk associated when buying a relacquered VI than an original one, whether in terms of the horn's (hidden by relacquering) history or its (affected) price.

But relacquering does not necessarily hurt the sound. It may even bring about improvements (to some players' tastes); putting it another way, the horn that you meet after it's been relacquered may be a better horn (aside from the current adjustment/regulation), for you, than the one it was when it left the factory.

As Dr G says, let your own experience of the horn be your guide. But definitely play the horn hard when you have a chance to play it.

Stephan
User ID: 0324974 Dec 11th 1:58 PM
Lenny,
Dr G and Tungp gave you very good information.
I can only give you some technical explanation on
relacquering a sax.
Often when a sax gets polished and relacquered the tone holes have been polished heaviely and therefore became uneven. Then the repairman who is going to repad the sax will file down the tone holes to have a flat service which makes adjusting the pad much easier.
But by lowering the hight of the tone holes the intonation will go all over the place. I have seen many horns with this problem and there is not much one can do about this.

So if this horn you are going for got a great sound make sure you check the intonation very carefully.

Lost Lamb
User ID: 0331974 Dec 11th 2:03 PM
I have one Mark VI that has been relacquered, and one Mark VI that was delacquered.
Both have great sound.
Play it and judge.
The relacq was a high school band horn and it is terrific with excellent intonation, and was not beat up.
I keep meeting oldtimers who have had their personal horns relacquered for onstage cosmetic reasons-it was common. You have to, imho, think-what do I want this for?
Looks, or collectible value?
It is a different answer than
the voice...

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 11th 2:26 PM
If the relacquered horn plays, buy it, if not then buy another horn or keep looking. I have a relacquered Martin tenor here that simply plays exceptionally.

Lost Lamb
User ID: 0331974 Dec 11th 2:40 PM
well, Mr. Booth, you are awake...and you have stayed off the cutest threads too...

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 11th 3:44 PM
LL, I'm not cute but anyone can look good in a Brown Paper Bag. Even myself

Lenny
User ID: 0952054 Dec 11th 5:11 PM
Thanks everybody. As it turned out the relacquered horn ( a 90,xxx) Mark VI was not the great VI I was hoping for. It was leaking more than I expected and the sound itself was nearly identical to the 179xxx I already have. Even had the same light color as my Sax which was bought in Paris way back when.
I've tried a couple of early 69,XXX horns recently that knocked me out but they weren't for sale. The more I look though the better I'm getting around on my own horn.

jd
User ID: 9670323 Dec 29th 6:49 AM
i have a 155*** RELAQ AND IT PLAYED MUCH BETTER AFTER THE RELAQ WITH THE NEW PADS ETC. ITS A FREE BLOWING GREAT SOUNDING HORN.ive had it since i was 17 and am 43 now!! sill gigging with it. ALSO HAVE AN ORIGINAL 103*** TENOR AND ITS A KILLER TOO. PLAYS WITH A MORE FOCUSED SOUND.id say a tad darker but projects like a monster.BOTH HORNS ARE KILLER AND I THINK THE RELAQ HYPE IS ONLY FOR RESALE OR COLLECTORS. Real players only care about sound and playability

Ron
User ID: 9517143 Dec 29th 1:15 PM
I just bought an old Buescher Aristocrat that will not win any beauty contests and paid a lot of money for it. When I opened up the case for the first time and removed the bubble wrap, I thought, "Well, this ugly horn isn't staying." LOL! It turned out to be the best horn I've every played and is a real keeper. Let your ears decide! A great horn is worth every penny in the long run.

Lenny User ID: 0952054	Dec 10th 3:45 PM I know this topic has come up before but i can't find it. I have a chance to look @ a Mark VI tenor around 90XXX that may be relacquered. i know that relacquer will probably lower the resale value - but will it neccessarily hurt the sound? Is a good relacquer job OK? I will be able to take it to a good tech who can verify if its been relaquered & how well. What should I look for on my own though?
Dr G User ID: 9356783	Dec 10th 5:25 PM Don't look, listen. If it doesn't play well and sound good, it's not worth it. Take along a tuner to check intonation - some were bad, others were worse. Go for the tone.
tungp User ID: 0952054	Dec 11th 1:00 PM Lenny, there's some disagreement on this, about the reality of relacquering in terms of effects. Most vintage sax specialists will at least agree that a heavy coat of lacquer, or a heavy removal of metal necessarily affects the performance of the saxophone. If a pronounced difference will make a significant difference, then any change will make at least some difference. Whether that difference is "good" or "bad," or is discernible to any given player's ear, is another question. In vintage saxophone pricing, there are no absolutes. Price is dependent on seller and buyer mutually agreeing to a price, whether it's by the seller or the buyer, or both, having a bottom line that overlaps. That said, relacquering, in the abstract, definitely hurts the horn's resale value. On the other hand, if a player comes across an original lacquer VI, and a relacquer that plays better, and is able to A/B them side-by-side, who's to say that player will not pay more for the relacquer that plays better? I would, if I didn't come across as many horns as I do. The question doesn't come down to good relacquer job versus bad relacquer job. It comes down to risk. There's a more risk associated when buying a relacquered VI than an original one, whether in terms of the horn's (hidden by relacquering) history or its (affected) price. But relacquering does not necessarily hurt the sound. It may even bring about improvements (to some players' tastes); putting it another way, the horn that you meet after it's been relacquered may be a better horn (aside from the current adjustment/regulation), for you, than the one it was when it left the factory. As Dr G says, let your own experience of the horn be your guide. But definitely play the horn hard when you have a chance to play it.
Stephan User ID: 0324974	Dec 11th 1:58 PM Lenny, Dr G and Tungp gave you very good information. I can only give you some technical explanation on relacquering a sax. Often when a sax gets polished and relacquered the tone holes have been polished heaviely and therefore became uneven. Then the repairman who is going to repad the sax will file down the tone holes to have a flat service which makes adjusting the pad much easier. But by lowering the hight of the tone holes the intonation will go all over the place. I have seen many horns with this problem and there is not much one can do about this. So if this horn you are going for got a great sound make sure you check the intonation very carefully.
Lost Lamb User ID: 0331974	Dec 11th 2:03 PM I have one Mark VI that has been relacquered, and one Mark VI that was delacquered. Both have great sound. Play it and judge. The relacq was a high school band horn and it is terrific with excellent intonation, and was not beat up. I keep meeting oldtimers who have had their personal horns relacquered for onstage cosmetic reasons-it was common. You have to, imho, think-what do I want this for? Looks, or collectible value? It is a different answer than the voice...
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 11th 2:26 PM If the relacquered horn plays, buy it, if not then buy another horn or keep looking. I have a relacquered Martin tenor here that simply plays exceptionally.
Lost Lamb User ID: 0331974	Dec 11th 2:40 PM well, Mr. Booth, you are awake...and you have stayed off the cutest threads too...
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 11th 3:44 PM LL, I'm not cute but anyone can look good in a Brown Paper Bag. Even myself
Lenny User ID: 0952054	Dec 11th 5:11 PM Thanks everybody. As it turned out the relacquered horn ( a 90,xxx) Mark VI was not the great VI I was hoping for. It was leaking more than I expected and the sound itself was nearly identical to the 179xxx I already have. Even had the same light color as my Sax which was bought in Paris way back when. I've tried a couple of early 69,XXX horns recently that knocked me out but they weren't for sale. The more I look though the better I'm getting around on my own horn.
jd User ID: 9670323	Dec 29th 6:49 AM i have a 155* RELAQ AND IT PLAYED MUCH BETTER AFTER THE RELAQ WITH THE NEW PADS ETC. ITS A FREE BLOWING GREAT SOUNDING HORN.ive had it since i was 17 and am 43 now!! sill gigging with it. ALSO HAVE AN ORIGINAL 103* TENOR AND ITS A KILLER TOO. PLAYS WITH A MORE FOCUSED SOUND.id say a tad darker but projects like a monster.BOTH HORNS ARE KILLER AND I THINK THE RELAQ HYPE IS ONLY FOR RESALE OR COLLECTORS. Real players only care about sound and playability
Ron User ID: 9517143	Dec 29th 1:15 PM I just bought an old Buescher Aristocrat that will not win any beauty contests and paid a lot of money for it. When I opened up the case for the first time and removed the bubble wrap, I thought, "Well, this ugly horn isn't staying." LOL! It turned out to be the best horn I've every played and is a real keeper. Let your ears decide! A great horn is worth every penny in the long run.