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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / MK VI files - the truth is out there!

Legato
User ID: 6549123 Dec 27th 2:26 PM
For several months now I have been looking for my "next" horn to take over where my student rental left off. Reading the postings on this forum has been a helpful, informative, and entertaining part of that process. The widely diverse views on various subjects are often expressed with such fervor, fire, and passion that it makes for very spirited reading material indeed.

Few subjects have been discussed with such ferocious enthusiasm as the pros and cons of Selmer’s Mark VI. Here’s another person’s take on the issue, and please read all the way to the end before you get overly twisted out of shape.

Over the years I have listened to quite a number of jazz tenor sax players, and whenever I hear a sound that I particularly like, I always go to great lengths to find out what instrument I am listening to. Very often it has turned out to be a Mark VI. Let me say that at first, I did not even know what a Mark VI was, nor did I know that it would become such a sought-after horn. But as the years passed, in my mind the subjective impression was formed that those who played the “legendary Mark VI” usually had the richest, purest sound – and more importantly I think - a sound that I wanted to make if and when I took up playing.

Well, it took quite a while for me to find the time, the resources, and the courage to tackle the beast, and when it came time to “upgrade” from my student instrument, it was a Mark VI that I had in mind. That’s about the time that I discovered this very cool discussion forum.

My first impression was that I could not believe the amount of time and energy that seemed to be spent on the heated discussions about one single horn in a world of so many incredible possibilities. Initially, my predilection for the MK VI was reinforced by much of what I read, but then I began to notice and obsess over the nay-sayers. I had been duped! The MK VI was nothing more than a pile of melted down artillery shell casings that happened to look like a sax! Quite honestly, at one point I was convinced that the whole MK VI legend was just that, a trumped-up legend, and that my opinions and impressions had somehow been programmed by those who owned closets full of the bloody things; in lieu of more traditional retirement investments, these people hoped to sell them for obscene prices to unsuspecting newbies like me.

Well, I’m down the road a ways from that moment, and I thought it might be interesting to share my experiences and impressions. I hope I’ve qualified myself sufficiently to put my comments, opinions, and conclusions into proper context.

I have looked at nine MK VIs to date, play-tested each one to the best of my somewhat limited ability, and with all but one of them, had an experienced player put them through their paces and critique them. I have done the same for two Series IIs and two Series IIIs, a Reference 54, two BAs, a Buffet Super Dynaction and an SI, a Conn 10M, a King Super 20, a Couf Superba 1, and the new pro models from Keilwerth, Yanagisawa and Yamaha. It’s been great fun, very interesting, and very enlightening.

With one or two exceptions, almost very horn I looked at had its attributes, and to my ear and that of my experienced “testers”, most produced sounds that would rate from “interesting”, to surprising, to quite grand.

To make a long story short and to relate my tale to its original topic, seven of the nine MK VIs were up to and beyond my expectations. My criterion for that last statement is that they produced the sound that I had come to anticipate and admire from my past experiences and impressions, or they sounded even better than I had expected. Other secondary factors that I noticed or that were pointed out to me by experienced players and/or technicians were - light, precise and user-friendly keywork, playability and versatility, and the quality of the mechanics. One of the remaining two had suspect intonation that even my “pro” tester couldn’t adjust out or play around, and the other needed an overhaul and could not be properly evaluated. Which did I like the best? A mid-60’s era horn that looked like it had been run over by a truck (but it had a sensational sound), and two from the final years of production that made me continue smiling for hours after playing them.

Just for the record, my next few favorites have been the BAs, the Superba, the Super 20, and the SI. I’d be quite happy with any one of those. Although I’m obviously drawn to older horns, the new Series III and KWs impressed as well.

My conclusions:

i) A noticeable and disproportionate number of MK VIs have the potential to be very impressive horns and to produce the particular sound I personally like (those last nine words are key). Some obviously do not; being hand made there are no doubt more than just a few “duds” out there.

ii) If you know that you don’t like the sound or tonal qualities of a particular type or model of horn, then it beats the hell out of me why you would spend your time debating the issue. If you are simply sick and tired of hearing the same old “it’s wonderful, it’s the only one, all else is crap” dribble from the biased admirers of the MK VI (or any other type of horn for that matter), then I sympathize with you. Why don’t we simply refuse to get caught up in the BS, ignore them, and hope they’ll get tired of having no one to argue with? The ridiculously high prices might even come down, and wouldn’t that be nice?

iii) If you play enough examples of any horn you think you like, sooner or later you’ll decide if it’s what you really want. Then you go out there and find the best one you possibly can, cash in all your bonds, empty the cookie jar, and make it happen.

I can live with that.

DirkW
User ID: 0798784 Dec 27th 3:58 PM
"To make a long story short..." Too late for that(grin).

I'm no pro, but I've been fortunate enough to spend time playing many different pro horns, including just about all you've listed. There is no best horn, just the best horn for you right now. You could buy the ideal horn now, and decide two years from now that you'd like something different.

I love listening to the experts discuss tonal qualities of horns. But in the end, your decision is yours alone. My advice is to pick one you've tried, continue to improve your play, and keep trying both horns and mouthpieces.

Legato
User ID: 6549123 Dec 27th 4:11 PM
I like your "there is no best horn, just the best horn for you right now" - wise words.

Do you mean I'm going to have to go through all of this again in a couple of years? Not really such a bad thing to look forward to now that I think about it - it's such great fun.

Appreciated your feedback and the cordial tone - always hopeful that opinion bashing can be avoided.

DirkW
User ID: 0798784 Dec 27th 4:48 PM
"always hopeful that opinion bashing can be avoided." - I strongly agree.

If you make smart your purchases of used horns, you almost always break even when you sell.

Brucesax
User ID: 9231093 Dec 27th 5:21 PM
If you buy a Mark IV, you pay one time.

If you buy another you, you pay many times.

BobD
User ID: 0185894 Dec 27th 5:46 PM
So did you buy the VI?

saxpics
Moderator
User ID: 2665034 Dec 27th 5:55 PM
You have a Mark IV? That's a pretty kewl Lincoln! I wish I had one!

Seriously now, I really like the Mark VI's I've played, but I think you'd have at least a 60-40 split on this 'board that the VI isn't the world's best horn for every application.

I'm a classical player. I want a horn with quick, slick keywork and exceptional intonation. A rich tone is a definite plus. The Mark VI certianly fits that bill, as well as several other horns: Buescher True Tone or Aristocrat, Buffet S1, etc.

However, if I were a big band musician, I'd probably go more for a Conn 12M or King Super 20.

Opinions are what this forum's about :)

rollen
User ID: 9043333 Dec 27th 6:02 PM
As Einstein's wife once said. "I understand the words but not the sentences."

What is point of the post?

Ditto BobD... did you buy a Mark VI, or not. Seems to me that you'll second guess yourself if you don't/didn't.

Legato
User ID: 6549123 Dec 28th 2:01 AM
Rollen, the point of my post was to observe that just the mention of MK VIs on this forum seems to provoke heated debate, rash generalizations, and at times simply bad manners.

I also wanted to share with others my attempts to wade through all the controversy as well as the opinions and ideas expressed in order to make as informed a decision as possible.

To answer the question, I am in the final stages of making a decision between a MK VI and two other horns.

soprano player
User ID: 0380734 Dec 28th 2:30 AM
"Oh wow, I have a MarkVI" or "I'm getting a MarkVI, because XXX plays one and he sounds good". I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. Do they know how a MarkVI plays like? Absolutely not. Are they going to try other brands like Keilwerth or Yamaha? Nope. So...why the MarkVI? "Because XXX plays one and everyone wants one!".

Gosh, I wish this would stop.

lesax
User ID: 1251404 Dec 28th 6:40 AM
"Regrets about poor quality will last LONG after celebrations about low price"

Legato
User ID: 6549123 Dec 28th 3:04 PM
If I buy horn X, I want to be able to say that I did so because I liked it better, or least just as much as any others that I tried personally and can claim to know something about. And I don't want to be singing its praises on this forum, or any other place, just to make myself feel better about owning one.

As I acquire more knowledge and experience, I may well decide that I made the wrong choice, or as Dirk suggests, I may simply decide I want something else.

I agree with SopPlyr "...I wish this would stop" -I'm trying to make sure it doesn't come from me.

DirkW
User ID: 0798784 Dec 28th 6:22 PM
I owned an alto MKVI for several years with both the original neck and a silver Yani neck. Great horn. When I had a side-by-side comparison with a Yani A901, I found it was quite similar. The sound was just as sweet, ergonomics where the same, similar quality of construction, and the Yani had better intonation. The MKVI did sound a little better when you really wanted to wail, but most of what I play is legit. So, I sold the MKVI, bought the A901 and had over $2K left to buy more sax stuff. Eventually wound up adding a Selmer Serie III in black lacquer for my tenor. Absolutely no regrets.

If I got serious with a band playing Jazz, Rock, or Blues, I'd most likely switch to vintage The Martin (alto and tenor), a couple of Cannonball Big Bell's or a pair of King Super 20's.

Selling the MKVI was the right decision for me, but may not me the right decision for Legato. My point is that only Legato can make the right decision for him, and he may change his mind as he matures as a player or changes styles.

BobD
User ID: 9558813 Dec 28th 10:40 PM
<<If I got serious with a band playing Jazz, Rock, or Blues, I'd most likely switch to vintage The Martin (alto and tenor), a couple of Cannonball Big Bell's or a pair of King Super 20's.>>

I wouldn't think you would need to be so extreme as to change horns to play jazz or RnB. A mouthpiece change would be more than enough. And some would even say that you should be able to play all styles of music with one piece.

DirkW
User ID: 0512724 Dec 28th 10:57 PM
Some may call me a promiscuous player, but I find each of these horns to have distinct personalities suited for different styles. If I could afford it, I'd have a large collection of horns (like cashsax or saxgourmet).

Certainly, you could play all styles with a single, versatile horn (such as a MKVI, Yani, vintage Conn, etc.). I keep 4 mouthpieces in my tenor case just for that reason. But I have way too much fun playing the field.

BobD
User ID: 9558813 Dec 28th 11:17 PM
Yeah. It's a fun hobby to be obsessive about(no insult intended). If I had the bucks I'd be the same way.

bram
User ID: 1843114 Jan 8th 7:45 AM
Dear Dirk W,

I can not understand. I had a yanigisawa tenor with silver neck and silver body. To compare with my MKVI. They were about the same...But compare with a yanigisawa with not siver body the MKVI was winner.
Now the point is this...If i would have kept the yanigisawa that one would have been pretty old and worn now.
The MKVi i still have and the value of this one is gone up a lot!
The yani you own now will get old and go down in value a lot. The yani does not have technically a life that lasts as long as a MKVI .....

I will always advise people to buy a MKVI instead of a new horn........

saxgreetings,
Bram.

DirkW
User ID: 2456014 Jan 8th 9:53 AM
Bram, good point. The investment value of a MKVI will always hold more than any other horn. Unless, of course, someone trips over your stand does some major damage to your retirement plan.

I buy horns based on sound and playability. For the blues, for example, I don't think any horn could match the smokey sound of a well adjusted vintage Martin. Investment value is rather low on my list of things to consider. But that's me.

As far as my own horn choices, I love my tenor SIII, once I adjusted the springs and nudged out the leaks. Tenor is my main horn, and as such should be my highest value horn. When I have the money, I'll likely buy a matching SIII alto. Until then, my Yani is just fine. I'll keep trying, just in case I find another horn I'd rather play for the style of music I play. But that's me.

My only advice is that each player has to play as many horns that they can, and find out what horn right for him or her.

Legato User ID: 6549123	Dec 27th 2:26 PM For several months now I have been looking for my "next" horn to take over where my student rental left off. Reading the postings on this forum has been a helpful, informative, and entertaining part of that process. The widely diverse views on various subjects are often expressed with such fervor, fire, and passion that it makes for very spirited reading material indeed. Few subjects have been discussed with such ferocious enthusiasm as the pros and cons of Selmer’s Mark VI. Here’s another person’s take on the issue, and please read all the way to the end before you get overly twisted out of shape. Over the years I have listened to quite a number of jazz tenor sax players, and whenever I hear a sound that I particularly like, I always go to great lengths to find out what instrument I am listening to. Very often it has turned out to be a Mark VI. Let me say that at first, I did not even know what a Mark VI was, nor did I know that it would become such a sought-after horn. But as the years passed, in my mind the subjective impression was formed that those who played the “legendary Mark VI” usually had the richest, purest sound – and more importantly I think - a sound that I wanted to make if and when I took up playing. Well, it took quite a while for me to find the time, the resources, and the courage to tackle the beast, and when it came time to “upgrade” from my student instrument, it was a Mark VI that I had in mind. That’s about the time that I discovered this very cool discussion forum. My first impression was that I could not believe the amount of time and energy that seemed to be spent on the heated discussions about one single horn in a world of so many incredible possibilities. Initially, my predilection for the MK VI was reinforced by much of what I read, but then I began to notice and obsess over the nay-sayers. I had been duped! The MK VI was nothing more than a pile of melted down artillery shell casings that happened to look like a sax! Quite honestly, at one point I was convinced that the whole MK VI legend was just that, a trumped-up legend, and that my opinions and impressions had somehow been programmed by those who owned closets full of the bloody things; in lieu of more traditional retirement investments, these people hoped to sell them for obscene prices to unsuspecting newbies like me. Well, I’m down the road a ways from that moment, and I thought it might be interesting to share my experiences and impressions. I hope I’ve qualified myself sufficiently to put my comments, opinions, and conclusions into proper context. I have looked at nine MK VIs to date, play-tested each one to the best of my somewhat limited ability, and with all but one of them, had an experienced player put them through their paces and critique them. I have done the same for two Series IIs and two Series IIIs, a Reference 54, two BAs, a Buffet Super Dynaction and an SI, a Conn 10M, a King Super 20, a Couf Superba 1, and the new pro models from Keilwerth, Yanagisawa and Yamaha. It’s been great fun, very interesting, and very enlightening. With one or two exceptions, almost very horn I looked at had its attributes, and to my ear and that of my experienced “testers”, most produced sounds that would rate from “interesting”, to surprising, to quite grand. To make a long story short and to relate my tale to its original topic, seven of the nine MK VIs were up to and beyond my expectations. My criterion for that last statement is that they produced the sound that I had come to anticipate and admire from my past experiences and impressions, or they sounded even better than I had expected. Other secondary factors that I noticed or that were pointed out to me by experienced players and/or technicians were - light, precise and user-friendly keywork, playability and versatility, and the quality of the mechanics. One of the remaining two had suspect intonation that even my “pro” tester couldn’t adjust out or play around, and the other needed an overhaul and could not be properly evaluated. Which did I like the best? A mid-60’s era horn that looked like it had been run over by a truck (but it had a sensational sound), and two from the final years of production that made me continue smiling for hours after playing them. Just for the record, my next few favorites have been the BAs, the Superba, the Super 20, and the SI. I’d be quite happy with any one of those. Although I’m obviously drawn to older horns, the new Series III and KWs impressed as well. My conclusions: i) A noticeable and disproportionate number of MK VIs have the potential to be very impressive horns and to produce the particular sound I personally like (those last nine words are key). Some obviously do not; being hand made there are no doubt more than just a few “duds” out there. ii) If you know that you don’t like the sound or tonal qualities of a particular type or model of horn, then it beats the hell out of me why you would spend your time debating the issue. If you are simply sick and tired of hearing the same old “it’s wonderful, it’s the only one, all else is crap” dribble from the biased admirers of the MK VI (or any other type of horn for that matter), then I sympathize with you. Why don’t we simply refuse to get caught up in the BS, ignore them, and hope they’ll get tired of having no one to argue with? The ridiculously high prices might even come down, and wouldn’t that be nice? iii) If you play enough examples of any horn you think you like, sooner or later you’ll decide if it’s what you really want. Then you go out there and find the best one you possibly can, cash in all your bonds, empty the cookie jar, and make it happen. I can live with that.
DirkW User ID: 0798784	Dec 27th 3:58 PM "To make a long story short..." Too late for that(grin). I'm no pro, but I've been fortunate enough to spend time playing many different pro horns, including just about all you've listed. There is no best horn, just the best horn for you right now. You could buy the ideal horn now, and decide two years from now that you'd like something different. I love listening to the experts discuss tonal qualities of horns. But in the end, your decision is yours alone. My advice is to pick one you've tried, continue to improve your play, and keep trying both horns and mouthpieces.
Legato User ID: 6549123	Dec 27th 4:11 PM I like your "there is no best horn, just the best horn for you right now" - wise words. Do you mean I'm going to have to go through all of this again in a couple of years? Not really such a bad thing to look forward to now that I think about it - it's such great fun. Appreciated your feedback and the cordial tone - always hopeful that opinion bashing can be avoided.
DirkW User ID: 0798784	Dec 27th 4:48 PM "always hopeful that opinion bashing can be avoided." - I strongly agree. If you make smart your purchases of used horns, you almost always break even when you sell.
Brucesax User ID: 9231093	Dec 27th 5:21 PM If you buy a Mark IV, you pay one time. If you buy another you, you pay many times.
BobD User ID: 0185894	Dec 27th 5:46 PM So did you buy the VI?
saxpics Moderator User ID: 2665034	Dec 27th 5:55 PM You have a Mark IV? That's a pretty kewl Lincoln! I wish I had one! Seriously now, I really like the Mark VI's I've played, but I think you'd have at least a 60-40 split on this 'board that the VI isn't the world's best horn for every application. I'm a classical player. I want a horn with quick, slick keywork and exceptional intonation. A rich tone is a definite plus. The Mark VI certianly fits that bill, as well as several other horns: Buescher True Tone or Aristocrat, Buffet S1, etc. However, if I were a big band musician, I'd probably go more for a Conn 12M or King Super 20. Opinions are what this forum's about :)
rollen User ID: 9043333	Dec 27th 6:02 PM As Einstein's wife once said. "I understand the words but not the sentences." What is point of the post? Ditto BobD... did you buy a Mark VI, or not. Seems to me that you'll second guess yourself if you don't/didn't.
Legato User ID: 6549123	Dec 28th 2:01 AM Rollen, the point of my post was to observe that just the mention of MK VIs on this forum seems to provoke heated debate, rash generalizations, and at times simply bad manners. I also wanted to share with others my attempts to wade through all the controversy as well as the opinions and ideas expressed in order to make as informed a decision as possible. To answer the question, I am in the final stages of making a decision between a MK VI and two other horns.
soprano player User ID: 0380734	Dec 28th 2:30 AM "Oh wow, I have a MarkVI" or "I'm getting a MarkVI, because XXX plays one and he sounds good". I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. Do they know how a MarkVI plays like? Absolutely not. Are they going to try other brands like Keilwerth or Yamaha? Nope. So...why the MarkVI? "Because XXX plays one and everyone wants one!". Gosh, I wish this would stop.
lesax User ID: 1251404	Dec 28th 6:40 AM "Regrets about poor quality will last LONG after celebrations about low price"
Legato User ID: 6549123	Dec 28th 3:04 PM If I buy horn X, I want to be able to say that I did so because I liked it better, or least just as much as any others that I tried personally and can claim to know something about. And I don't want to be singing its praises on this forum, or any other place, just to make myself feel better about owning one. As I acquire more knowledge and experience, I may well decide that I made the wrong choice, or as Dirk suggests, I may simply decide I want something else. I agree with SopPlyr "...I wish this would stop" -I'm trying to make sure it doesn't come from me.
DirkW User ID: 0798784	Dec 28th 6:22 PM I owned an alto MKVI for several years with both the original neck and a silver Yani neck. Great horn. When I had a side-by-side comparison with a Yani A901, I found it was quite similar. The sound was just as sweet, ergonomics where the same, similar quality of construction, and the Yani had better intonation. The MKVI did sound a little better when you really wanted to wail, but most of what I play is legit. So, I sold the MKVI, bought the A901 and had over $2K left to buy more sax stuff. Eventually wound up adding a Selmer Serie III in black lacquer for my tenor. Absolutely no regrets. If I got serious with a band playing Jazz, Rock, or Blues, I'd most likely switch to vintage The Martin (alto and tenor), a couple of Cannonball Big Bell's or a pair of King Super 20's. Selling the MKVI was the right decision for me, but may not me the right decision for Legato. My point is that only Legato can make the right decision for him, and he may change his mind as he matures as a player or changes styles.
BobD User ID: 9558813	Dec 28th 10:40 PM <<If I got serious with a band playing Jazz, Rock, or Blues, I'd most likely switch to vintage The Martin (alto and tenor), a couple of Cannonball Big Bell's or a pair of King Super 20's.>> I wouldn't think you would need to be so extreme as to change horns to play jazz or RnB. A mouthpiece change would be more than enough. And some would even say that you should be able to play all styles of music with one piece.
DirkW User ID: 0512724	Dec 28th 10:57 PM Some may call me a promiscuous player, but I find each of these horns to have distinct personalities suited for different styles. If I could afford it, I'd have a large collection of horns (like cashsax or saxgourmet). Certainly, you could play all styles with a single, versatile horn (such as a MKVI, Yani, vintage Conn, etc.). I keep 4 mouthpieces in my tenor case just for that reason. But I have way too much fun playing the field.
BobD User ID: 9558813	Dec 28th 11:17 PM Yeah. It's a fun hobby to be obsessive about(no insult intended). If I had the bucks I'd be the same way.
bram User ID: 1843114	Jan 8th 7:45 AM Dear Dirk W, I can not understand. I had a yanigisawa tenor with silver neck and silver body. To compare with my MKVI. They were about the same...But compare with a yanigisawa with not siver body the MKVI was winner. Now the point is this...If i would have kept the yanigisawa that one would have been pretty old and worn now. The MKVi i still have and the value of this one is gone up a lot! The yani you own now will get old and go down in value a lot. The yani does not have technically a life that lasts as long as a MKVI ..... I will always advise people to buy a MKVI instead of a new horn........ saxgreetings, Bram.
DirkW User ID: 2456014	Jan 8th 9:53 AM Bram, good point. The investment value of a MKVI will always hold more than any other horn. Unless, of course, someone trips over your stand does some major damage to your retirement plan. I buy horns based on sound and playability. For the blues, for example, I don't think any horn could match the smokey sound of a well adjusted vintage Martin. Investment value is rather low on my list of things to consider. But that's me. As far as my own horn choices, I love my tenor SIII, once I adjusted the springs and nudged out the leaks. Tenor is my main horn, and as such should be my highest value horn. When I have the money, I'll likely buy a matching SIII alto. Until then, my Yani is just fine. I'll keep trying, just in case I find another horn I'd rather play for the style of music I play. But that's me. My only advice is that each player has to play as many horns that they can, and find out what horn right for him or her.