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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / G2 problem on III Alto

GottaSax
User ID: 9656233 Dec 5th 4:36 PM
I just got my new Serie III Black Alto yesturday, and i must say... what a horn! I was putting it through its paces when i started to notice that when playing G2, the sound of G1 starts to slip through. After seeing nothing on SOTW, i looked in the 2 almost non-existant newsgroups and found a thread about this happening. Some poster talked about this being a notorious problem w\ the III, and that there were 2 ways to fix it:
A) Paying big bucks to have the instrument "fixed", which involves drilling.
B) Learning to play so that it doesnt come out G1\G2.

I have no idea what could be done to fix it mechanicly, but im hoping one of you out there might. FOr the time being, im trying to compensate w\ my style of playing, but now it is very noticably flat, and i see no other way of playing to fix it.
Does anyone have anything else to try to fix this problem???

Brian- formally "lookinforasax"

E-flat
User ID: 8973393 Dec 5th 4:51 PM
The drilling suggestion was originally cited by our own Gordon (NZ) who got it from Saxofonwinkel, who supposedly got it from Selmer. (Gordon, one might add, does not necessarily endorse it, or at least had never tried it personally.) But I remember someone raising the same issue with Miles Osland, but I forget what his solution was. You might want to visit the Selmer website and ask him.

A similar problem arises on Serie IIs (at least, it does on mine). I live with it.

Danny Barrett
User ID: 9308123 Dec 5th 5:24 PM
I had (and sometimes still have) the same problem on my Weltklang tenor.

Last night a friend of mine and I played on another another friend's MKVI alto, and my friend had the problem, but I didn't.

Solution: Fix your embouchure. If you tighten up your embouchure a bit, you're likely to find that the problem will disappear. Of course, don't bite, but develop the muscles in your lips.

If the body octave vent is drilled out, it will be likely to make D go slightly sharp when the octave key is pressed, but in tune for low D - not a desirable situation.

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Dec 6th 8:43 PM
GottaSax, you write "A) Paying big bucks to have the instrument "fixed", which involves drilling."

This drilling could be done by any careful technician, and would most likely take about 2 minutes. It could not take more than 10 minutes, so it should not cost big bucks.

Personally I am reluctant to do this modification unless I have a spare octave 'pip' to replace it with should the result be not as hoped. However Selmer are extraordinarily bad at supplying parts such as this. I have been waiting for months for spares for a similar situation a customer has with a clarinet. A reminder was ignored. I don't actually expect it to ever arrive. That seems to be their attitude.

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Dec 6th 8:45 PM
BTW I am writing of Selmer Paris. I know nothing of the service through Selmer in America.

Danny Barrett
User ID: 9308123 Dec 8th 4:28 PM
Gordon,
have you tried filling the octave pip with brazing material and then redrilling it and then resoldering it onto the horn? On the other hand, it may be possible to get a machine shop to make one up using new brass. It might not be cheap, but it's a lot quicker than waiting for a part from Selmer that isn't likely to ever arrive.

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Dec 9th 4:19 AM
If the customer gets desparate for me to do this I will. With soldering Selmers there is a high risk of burning (browning) the nitrocellulose lacquer that they still seem to be using at least sometimes. This is not a pretty proposition on a new horn.

I have a comprehensive machine shop, but it annoys me (and the customer!)so much to have to charge for an hour of my time plus the machine time, to make a one-off part that would cost $1 to mass produce, and which the manufacturer clearly has in stock. To me this is little else than thumbing their noses (what a euphemism!) at their buyers.

Don't get me going! The S____ worshippers will come again with their pea shooters!

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Dec 9th 5:18 AM
I had a rather similar problem with a new III alto, except it affected my G#2 which kept dropping to a G#1. This is of course the other octave key vent in play in this case. I improved it a lot by checking the operation of the octave mechanism, there was some sluggish movement and the two vents were not opening and shutting crisply enough. Its a bit complicated on this model and some of the materials in the linkages do not lend themselves to smooth action.

It always was an intermittent problem, though it virtually disappeared over a few months of playing - maybe it was me getting used to its reponse, or maybe the keywork improved with playing. Anyway, it has just had its first service and the problem has now disappeared. My tech can't say what it was exactly, as it is her routine to go over the sax top to bottom. It does play miles better now, the standard set up on the couple of new Selmers I have owned has not been brilliant. So, maybe you should have it checked over.

E-flat
User ID: 0485244 Dec 9th 6:03 AM
Yes--a good rule to follow is to ALWAYS have the horn checked over if you buy mailorder. If there is a problem, it is probably a waste of time trying figure out what to do yourself, unless of course you are a repair technician yourself.

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Dec 9th 6:47 AM
And it doesn't HAVE to be expensive - I have just had 3 done which cost me on average the equivalent of about $25 each. In each case the horn was revolutionised. Don't ask me how the tech does it for that much, but they have a great long-standing reputation for doing great work at a very low price. I like that.

Brice B.
User ID: 8019393 Dec 9th 11:59 AM
I had a Black Selmer III alto with the problem you mentioned. All I had to do is get one of those little wire pipe cleaners with the fuzz all over it (do you know what those are??) and bend it at a 90 degree angle, and clean out the little octave vent. There a big possibility that there's a little bit of filings or gunk that could be cloging it a bit. Try this before you spend money on repairs. You have to do thise through the inside of the horn. Look into the top of the horn with the neck off, and you'll see the little vent tube sticking out. Just try to clean it out a bit. This is what fixed the problem for me.

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Dec 9th 3:02 PM
That would be a lot easier to do from the outside if you took the key off!

Danny Barrett
User ID: 9308123 Dec 9th 6:41 PM
Steve,
Personally, I haven't seen the 8ve mechanism for the Serie III, but it surprises me that it would go to the neck octave pip on G#, when every other sax that I've ever seen goes to it on A (except for the very old one I saw that had 2 8ve keys, and no switch mechanism - that's a rare one!). This is because the G key has always (from the ones I've seen) been the key that does the switch - and G is still pressed for G# (which goes without saying). Is the Serie III different in this regard, or just a mistake?

Also, I had the same problem on my G# as well as the G. Both have gone since I strengthened up my embouchure a bit more (except when my chops are too tired).

GottaSax
User ID: 9656233 Dec 9th 8:36 PM
Well, after about 10 hours of general practicing, i can say w\ enthusiasm that the problem has been fixed, simply but getting used to the horn ( and what a horn it is!!).

My teacher- who plays a mark VI alto and also enjoys the III, recently "tested" my alto for me. He was very pleasantly suprised by the intonation of the horn, and it "being the best III or II he's ever played!"
But the thing that really caught him was the price- $2850US including shipping. He kinda skipped a heartbeat there, trying to correct me, and soon after restating the price, he told me that that was a better set up horn than the normal lac. III that one of his other students baught recently!

Brian- formally known as "lookinforasax"

Gordon (NZ)
User ID: 1265504 Dec 9th 10:59 PM
Quite right, Danny. G and G# use the lower octave pip.

The sugggested remedy involves drilling out the LOWER octave pip.

And this is what concerned me about the drilling the neck pip for 'A'. Drilling the lower pip for G, which is at the UPPER end of the range covered, is a very different solution to drilling the UPPER pip for 'A', which is at the LOWER end of the range covered by that pip.

How could drilling work for both these situations? It seems a can of worms to me, and I would want to be able to UNDO the damage done if it did not work.

The real question is, why doesn't Selmer come clean over these issues, answer correspondence, be helpful, arrange a product recal, inform the technicians networks, even post something here, etc. They just don't seem to care after the sale is made!

Danny Barrett
User ID: 9308123 Dec 9th 11:17 PM
Brian,
It's great to hear that you've worked through the problem with a few hours of practice. I wish you all the best with it.

Gordon,
I agree with you there about the neck pip. Since the higher notes are more touchy with their tuning (or at least, seem to be), then drilling the neck pip sounds to me to be as good as going out and looking for trouble. The neck is one area that I wouldn't like to play around with - far too risky.

stevew
User ID: 0171704 Dec 10th 2:47 AM
Danny, you are right - the G# is the last note before the change of octave vent. That's the problem of participating in this when at work away from my horn..

E-flat
User ID: 0087674 Dec 10th 7:31 AM
Gordon and others--in a sense Selmer has "come clean" concerning the middle G issue; the matter came up on the Selmer (USA) website, and Miles Osland responded to it.
He made it clear that this was a general problem for Serie IIIs, and provided a solution (which I cannot now remember). I realize, however that this probably isn't enough to make everyone happy.

Although the Selmer website is an official website, there is in fact a surprising amount of freedom of discussion. Riff, for example, stated his opinion that his Keilwerth tenor outplays all the modern Selmers and his own Mark VI. That was allowed to remain on the website. Other people voice other preferences--that Yamaha is better; the Serie III is much better than the Serie II (although Selmer sells both).

All makers have their problems; admittedly, the Japanese set up their horns better. Phil Striker at www.saxophones.uk.com says that Selmer has gotten better in this area, but it used to be worse. For a blasting critique of Keilwerth along the lines Gordon (NZ) gives concerning Selmer, see Stephen Howard's recent post in alt. music. saxophone (echoing Phil Barone's complaints of a few years ago on the same newsgroup).

If you can find a perfect saxophone, buy it (to paraphrase Lee Iacocca).

GottaSax User ID: 9656233	Dec 5th 4:36 PM I just got my new Serie III Black Alto yesturday, and i must say... what a horn! I was putting it through its paces when i started to notice that when playing G2, the sound of G1 starts to slip through. After seeing nothing on SOTW, i looked in the 2 almost non-existant newsgroups and found a thread about this happening. Some poster talked about this being a notorious problem w\ the III, and that there were 2 ways to fix it: A) Paying big bucks to have the instrument "fixed", which involves drilling. B) Learning to play so that it doesnt come out G1\G2. I have no idea what could be done to fix it mechanicly, but im hoping one of you out there might. FOr the time being, im trying to compensate w\ my style of playing, but now it is very noticably flat, and i see no other way of playing to fix it. Does anyone have anything else to try to fix this problem??? Brian- formally "lookinforasax"
E-flat User ID: 8973393	Dec 5th 4:51 PM The drilling suggestion was originally cited by our own Gordon (NZ) who got it from Saxofonwinkel, who supposedly got it from Selmer. (Gordon, one might add, does not necessarily endorse it, or at least had never tried it personally.) But I remember someone raising the same issue with Miles Osland, but I forget what his solution was. You might want to visit the Selmer website and ask him. A similar problem arises on Serie IIs (at least, it does on mine). I live with it.
Danny Barrett User ID: 9308123	Dec 5th 5:24 PM I had (and sometimes still have) the same problem on my Weltklang tenor. Last night a friend of mine and I played on another another friend's MKVI alto, and my friend had the problem, but I didn't. Solution: Fix your embouchure. If you tighten up your embouchure a bit, you're likely to find that the problem will disappear. Of course, don't bite, but develop the muscles in your lips. If the body octave vent is drilled out, it will be likely to make D go slightly sharp when the octave key is pressed, but in tune for low D - not a desirable situation.
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Dec 6th 8:43 PM GottaSax, you write "A) Paying big bucks to have the instrument "fixed", which involves drilling." This drilling could be done by any careful technician, and would most likely take about 2 minutes. It could not take more than 10 minutes, so it should not cost big bucks. Personally I am reluctant to do this modification unless I have a spare octave 'pip' to replace it with should the result be not as hoped. However Selmer are extraordinarily bad at supplying parts such as this. I have been waiting for months for spares for a similar situation a customer has with a clarinet. A reminder was ignored. I don't actually expect it to ever arrive. That seems to be their attitude.
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Dec 6th 8:45 PM BTW I am writing of Selmer Paris. I know nothing of the service through Selmer in America.
Danny Barrett User ID: 9308123	Dec 8th 4:28 PM Gordon, have you tried filling the octave pip with brazing material and then redrilling it and then resoldering it onto the horn? On the other hand, it may be possible to get a machine shop to make one up using new brass. It might not be cheap, but it's a lot quicker than waiting for a part from Selmer that isn't likely to ever arrive.
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Dec 9th 4:19 AM If the customer gets desparate for me to do this I will. With soldering Selmers there is a high risk of burning (browning) the nitrocellulose lacquer that they still seem to be using at least sometimes. This is not a pretty proposition on a new horn. I have a comprehensive machine shop, but it annoys me (and the customer!)so much to have to charge for an hour of my time plus the machine time, to make a one-off part that would cost $1 to mass produce, and which the manufacturer clearly has in stock. To me this is little else than thumbing their noses (what a euphemism!) at their buyers. Don't get me going! The S____ worshippers will come again with their pea shooters!
stevew User ID: 8868883	Dec 9th 5:18 AM I had a rather similar problem with a new III alto, except it affected my G#2 which kept dropping to a G#1. This is of course the other octave key vent in play in this case. I improved it a lot by checking the operation of the octave mechanism, there was some sluggish movement and the two vents were not opening and shutting crisply enough. Its a bit complicated on this model and some of the materials in the linkages do not lend themselves to smooth action. It always was an intermittent problem, though it virtually disappeared over a few months of playing - maybe it was me getting used to its reponse, or maybe the keywork improved with playing. Anyway, it has just had its first service and the problem has now disappeared. My tech can't say what it was exactly, as it is her routine to go over the sax top to bottom. It does play miles better now, the standard set up on the couple of new Selmers I have owned has not been brilliant. So, maybe you should have it checked over.
E-flat User ID: 0485244	Dec 9th 6:03 AM Yes--a good rule to follow is to ALWAYS have the horn checked over if you buy mailorder. If there is a problem, it is probably a waste of time trying figure out what to do yourself, unless of course you are a repair technician yourself.
stevew User ID: 8868883	Dec 9th 6:47 AM And it doesn't HAVE to be expensive - I have just had 3 done which cost me on average the equivalent of about $25 each. In each case the horn was revolutionised. Don't ask me how the tech does it for that much, but they have a great long-standing reputation for doing great work at a very low price. I like that.
Brice B. User ID: 8019393	Dec 9th 11:59 AM I had a Black Selmer III alto with the problem you mentioned. All I had to do is get one of those little wire pipe cleaners with the fuzz all over it (do you know what those are??) and bend it at a 90 degree angle, and clean out the little octave vent. There a big possibility that there's a little bit of filings or gunk that could be cloging it a bit. Try this before you spend money on repairs. You have to do thise through the inside of the horn. Look into the top of the horn with the neck off, and you'll see the little vent tube sticking out. Just try to clean it out a bit. This is what fixed the problem for me.
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Dec 9th 3:02 PM That would be a lot easier to do from the outside if you took the key off!
Danny Barrett User ID: 9308123	Dec 9th 6:41 PM Steve, Personally, I haven't seen the 8ve mechanism for the Serie III, but it surprises me that it would go to the neck octave pip on G#, when every other sax that I've ever seen goes to it on A (except for the very old one I saw that had 2 8ve keys, and no switch mechanism - that's a rare one!). This is because the G key has always (from the ones I've seen) been the key that does the switch - and G is still pressed for G# (which goes without saying). Is the Serie III different in this regard, or just a mistake? Also, I had the same problem on my G# as well as the G. Both have gone since I strengthened up my embouchure a bit more (except when my chops are too tired).
GottaSax User ID: 9656233	Dec 9th 8:36 PM Well, after about 10 hours of general practicing, i can say w\ enthusiasm that the problem has been fixed, simply but getting used to the horn ( and what a horn it is!!). My teacher- who plays a mark VI alto and also enjoys the III, recently "tested" my alto for me. He was very pleasantly suprised by the intonation of the horn, and it "being the best III or II he's ever played!" But the thing that really caught him was the price- $2850US including shipping. He kinda skipped a heartbeat there, trying to correct me, and soon after restating the price, he told me that that was a better set up horn than the normal lac. III that one of his other students baught recently! Brian- formally known as "lookinforasax"
Gordon (NZ) User ID: 1265504	Dec 9th 10:59 PM Quite right, Danny. G and G# use the lower octave pip. The sugggested remedy involves drilling out the LOWER octave pip. And this is what concerned me about the drilling the neck pip for 'A'. Drilling the lower pip for G, which is at the UPPER end of the range covered, is a very different solution to drilling the UPPER pip for 'A', which is at the LOWER end of the range covered by that pip. How could drilling work for both these situations? It seems a can of worms to me, and I would want to be able to UNDO the damage done if it did not work. The real question is, why doesn't Selmer come clean over these issues, answer correspondence, be helpful, arrange a product recal, inform the technicians networks, even post something here, etc. They just don't seem to care after the sale is made!
Danny Barrett User ID: 9308123	Dec 9th 11:17 PM Brian, It's great to hear that you've worked through the problem with a few hours of practice. I wish you all the best with it. Gordon, I agree with you there about the neck pip. Since the higher notes are more touchy with their tuning (or at least, seem to be), then drilling the neck pip sounds to me to be as good as going out and looking for trouble. The neck is one area that I wouldn't like to play around with - far too risky.
stevew User ID: 0171704	Dec 10th 2:47 AM Danny, you are right - the G# is the last note before the change of octave vent. That's the problem of participating in this when at work away from my horn..
E-flat User ID: 0087674	Dec 10th 7:31 AM Gordon and others--in a sense Selmer has "come clean" concerning the middle G issue; the matter came up on the Selmer (USA) website, and Miles Osland responded to it. He made it clear that this was a general problem for Serie IIIs, and provided a solution (which I cannot now remember). I realize, however that this probably isn't enough to make everyone happy. Although the Selmer website is an official website, there is in fact a surprising amount of freedom of discussion. Riff, for example, stated his opinion that his Keilwerth tenor outplays all the modern Selmers and his own Mark VI. That was allowed to remain on the website. Other people voice other preferences--that Yamaha is better; the Serie III is much better than the Serie II (although Selmer sells both). All makers have their problems; admittedly, the Japanese set up their horns better. Phil Striker at www.saxophones.uk.com says that Selmer has gotten better in this area, but it used to be worse. For a blasting critique of Keilwerth along the lines Gordon (NZ) gives concerning Selmer, see Stephen Howard's recent post in alt. music. saxophone (echoing Phil Barone's complaints of a few years ago on the same newsgroup). If you can find a perfect saxophone, buy it (to paraphrase Lee Iacocca).