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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Selmer saxes / VI/54/36

Next 20 Messages

RJ
User ID: 0373644 Nov 28th 10:49 AM
I have a pretty good VI. Lately, I've been thinking I like the feel of the new horns. I was thinking of a Ref horn because I like the Selmer sound. I figure I can sell the VI and have enough money for a Ref horn and a real good mpc. My question is(having only picked one of these horns up becuasr i was with out my mpc) how do these Ref horns play as compared to a VI. Is the 54 similar in sound to a VI? Which one has a fatter low end? Are there any "pet peeves" about either of these horns? i will eventually play both but i wanted dome initial feedback first.

Thanks for any information you can give me.

Oh, I have read that some think these horns are both very resistant horns. Is that true? and what mouthpieces work on them?

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Nov 28th 11:12 AM
I tried the 54 and 36 back to back and loved the full blooded sound of the 54 which had a lot of low end kick as well as plenty of refinement for classical or anything else you like.

The only things I didn't like about it as a Ref 54 owner were: 1) the palm keys are too close to the body, especially the D, 2) I don't really like the brushed finish 3) personally I found the front F based fingerings and altissimo difficult, but other players played my set-up and found it OK.

When I went to play test a few, I found the two examples of the 36 that were in stock were too badly set up to judge fully, though the basic tone was promising and they look wicked. Howver the 54 I got was such a peach it was no contest.

I did find the Ref horns are a bit resistant, but that is not a bad thing, there was bags of power, they never seemed to run out when you blow flat out. I found the construction and keywork was fairly simple, accurate and solid, except as I say, for the palm keys - I fitted some risers.

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Nov 28th 11:13 AM
Oh yes, use any old piece you like on the 54, I used a vintage Link, Berg, Jody Jazz, Jody Espina ESP, Vandoen T25 and a Yanagisawa HR. All of them worked great in their own way.

John_HK
User ID: 9565813 Nov 29th 4:32 AM
I once played my 54 side by side with two VI's, one with serial around 100K, which incidentally a superb sounding VI, the other one 160K. The did sound very similar. I felt that the 54 has slightly more power, while the 100K VI has more depth to the tone.

As for resistance of the Ref. horns, I think it is only a set-up issue other than inherent problems with the Ref. horns. When I first got my 54, it has a number of leaks on both the lower and upper stacks. It was quite resistant, but not overly so. After it was well set up last week, it's now quite free blowing, and very responsive.

Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Nov 29th 8:08 AM
If you've been playing a VI, the palm keys shouldn't bother you. I played a BA for many years, went to a III, and am happiest with my Ref 36. Plenty fat, perhaps a little punchier than the 54. Still easy enough to throttle down for classical but loves to roar in the big band.

Mouthpiece-wise, it's very flexible. I've used Barone Jazz and Hollywood, Lamberson SB, J&D Hite, and Morgan "L" - all with tip openings of .110" - and a Morgan 3C (.095")for classical.

Steve
User ID: 8026483 Nov 29th 10:47 AM
I tried a 54 tenor next to my 1955 VI with my Runyon Quantum. The 54 was "interesting" to me because:

1. Smoother (heavier) action;
2. Pitch and tone more consistent (sterile) even when pushed through it's dynamic range;
3. I liked the finish.

I left with my VI because:

1. Action can be fixed;
2. Sterility lacks "character" (my term for the differences in openness of some of the notes);
3. I didn't like the finish more than my silver plating.
4. The VI is louder, brighter, and faster (great for jazz and rock).
5. I can deal with the pitch issues for now (practice).

bernd
User ID: 8304653 Nov 29th 11:21 AM
I tried a Ref36 compared to my SBA and MK VI (120k) and they all differ in sound/resistance etc., but not too much. Biggest difference for me: if you change airstream and/or push the old Selmers, they change their sound character. This gives me a lot of flexibility and color. The new Selmers don't do that.

Steve
User ID: 8026483 Nov 29th 11:36 AM
Agreed to above.

Bari Martin
User ID: 9676623 Nov 29th 9:50 PM
Steve and bernd; Thanks for the analyses. The 'sound character' and the ability to change it is the very essence of the pre-Mk VII Selmers and is the principle reason they will always be prized above all other tenors. I have been waiting for someone to come up with the phrase that perfectly explains this, and that's it. I remember well when the Mk VII came out that guys were saying 'It has no funk' and 'You can't bend notes'. They were perhaps saying the same thing, but in different ways. This is certainly not to say that the Ref 36, 54 and Serie III are not great horns, but for many of us, they just 'have no funk'.

MML
User ID: 0909594 Nov 30th 12:59 PM
I tried a Ref 54 today, overall sounds good but keywork are more tight & higher than other Selmer horn, not smooth. Do you think easy adjustment by a good technician without influence on the sound quailty?

BobD
User ID: 9725373 Dec 1st 9:04 PM
So, are many pro's playing these Ref horns? I did see Jerry Bergonzi playing one once but he said that he needed to get used to it becuase he was heading to Europe to play and since he's a Selmer artist he needed to play it. He sounded great on it but I don't know of anyone else playing the Ref horns. It seems athat most pro playters stick with there Selmers.

BobD
User ID: 0352454 Dec 2nd 1:57 PM
Dr. G,

Why have you moved from a BA to a III to a 36? I would think such a sought after horn as a BA would be a keeper. Any regrets?

Dr G
User ID: 8659853 Dec 2nd 2:36 PM
Regrets? You bet. One of the most gorgeous horns I ever seen. If I could have afforded several horns at the time, I would have kept it. But, if I could have only one for section and quartet work, I needed something with better intonation and even timbre throughout the scale and it needed a serious overhaul of the mechanism - hence the III. Problem with the III was that the palm keys forced my hands into a bad position and, as much as I was playing, I started getting a repetitive stress injury in my left hand. With the Ref 36 I get the correct palm key ergo's, the punch of the BA, and a very solid working horn. Even now, much as I'd love to have a sweet looking BA such as I sold, I couldn't afford it without liquidating every other toy I own. And it would still have the chronic sharp bell notes and weak palm key notes. Great for small ensembles where "close enough for jazz" holds true but it just didn't work out for me as my musical collaborations changed.

As to more pro's playing Ref's - it just doesn't matter to me who's playing what. Heck, there are lots of folks playing Yamaha, Yani, and Keilwerth but I'm not lining up for any of those. It'll be more interesting to see what starts gathering a following in years to come. The Ref's are still new horns on the scene. When players start wearing out their horns and look to replace them (and either cannot find or afford good vintage horns), then we'll see. Either way you cut it, it's a great time to be a tenor player. I love having a choice.

And Bari, my Ref 36 has "the funk". Oh yeah...

Toby
User ID: 8980403 Dec 6th 2:48 AM
Ha ha ha, go for the tone!

There is a short list of specific problems with factory new ref54's.

Leaks, tight springs, thin neck cork, and (the worst) inconsistent neck diameter at the MPC tip.

Now I'm hearing about finish problems but mine is fine.

After all that, It's still a wonderful horn for me. Maybe I could have done better but I've yet to play a MKVI that makes "my" tone for me as naturally and easily as this horn.

Look for a tip of .503 or .504
Call Mark Overton at Saxquest. He can help with necks. I lucked out with a .504 delivered but there are some .498's out there that folks are not liking.

Matthew's music is selling the horns at a great price compared to vintage MKVI's which IMHO, have no less variation in quality and are all 40 years old.

Toby
User ID: 8980403 Dec 6th 2:49 AM
Ha ha ha, go for the tone!

There is a short list of specific problems with factory new ref54's.

Leaks, tight springs, thin neck cork, and (the worst) inconsistent neck diameter at the MPC tip.

Now I'm hearing about finish problems but mine is fine.

After all that, It's still a wonderful horn for me. Maybe I could have done better but I've yet to play a MKVI that makes "my" tone for me as naturally and easily as this horn.

Look for a tip of .503 or .504
Call Mark Overton at Saxquest. He can help with necks. I lucked out with a .504 delivered but there are some .498's out there that folks are not liking.

Matthew's music is selling the horns at a great price compared to vintage MKVI's which IMHO, have no less variation in quality and are all 40 years old.

stevew
User ID: 0171704 Dec 7th 9:34 AM
Back to the question RJ - if you have a pretty good VI, DONT DO IT! I have just done the reverse, gone from a 54 to a VI and it is just great. It is faster and smoother than my 54 but then if I'd had the 54 tweaked, I am sure it could have felt similar. The VI feels more nimble, more alive and is just so easy to play. And I like the finish and the palm keys...

Spaddy
User ID: 8012303 Dec 10th 9:24 PM
I did some side by side tests with BA and a 54, it was suprising. The BA was brighter! Not much...below low G the 54 is darker after that it is pretty hard to tell the difference. When my teacher played them there was some difference, however if they both were not there to do side by side testing it would be really hard to tell the differnce! Overall, if I owned a BA I would not change, if I was buying new I would definitly go for the 54.

Tommy Boy
User ID: 9934403 Dec 10th 10:14 PM
That has been my experience too with my 54 too. I compared it to a 161k Mark VI and the only difference is the slightly darker, lusher bottom end. Otherwise they were very similar.

Andy
User ID: 0025534 Dec 11th 10:10 PM
What about a Ref 36 compare with 54? Which horn has better rich tone, which is more thick sound?

I heard some player said Ref 36 is more bright & has better and more smooth keywork compare with Ref 54, is it?

Tommy Boy
User ID: 9934403 Dec 12th 8:02 AM
The keywork between the Ref 54 and 36 is exactly the same. The Ref 36 has a rounder tone that is slight brighter than the Ref 54. The 54 has a darker more focused sound with more depth.

Next 20 Messages

RJ User ID: 0373644	Nov 28th 10:49 AM I have a pretty good VI. Lately, I've been thinking I like the feel of the new horns. I was thinking of a Ref horn because I like the Selmer sound. I figure I can sell the VI and have enough money for a Ref horn and a real good mpc. My question is(having only picked one of these horns up becuasr i was with out my mpc) how do these Ref horns play as compared to a VI. Is the 54 similar in sound to a VI? Which one has a fatter low end? Are there any "pet peeves" about either of these horns? i will eventually play both but i wanted dome initial feedback first. Thanks for any information you can give me. Oh, I have read that some think these horns are both very resistant horns. Is that true? and what mouthpieces work on them?
stevew User ID: 8868883	Nov 28th 11:12 AM I tried the 54 and 36 back to back and loved the full blooded sound of the 54 which had a lot of low end kick as well as plenty of refinement for classical or anything else you like. The only things I didn't like about it as a Ref 54 owner were: 1) the palm keys are too close to the body, especially the D, 2) I don't really like the brushed finish 3) personally I found the front F based fingerings and altissimo difficult, but other players played my set-up and found it OK. When I went to play test a few, I found the two examples of the 36 that were in stock were too badly set up to judge fully, though the basic tone was promising and they look wicked. Howver the 54 I got was such a peach it was no contest. I did find the Ref horns are a bit resistant, but that is not a bad thing, there was bags of power, they never seemed to run out when you blow flat out. I found the construction and keywork was fairly simple, accurate and solid, except as I say, for the palm keys - I fitted some risers.
stevew User ID: 8868883	Nov 28th 11:13 AM Oh yes, use any old piece you like on the 54, I used a vintage Link, Berg, Jody Jazz, Jody Espina ESP, Vandoen T25 and a Yanagisawa HR. All of them worked great in their own way.
John_HK User ID: 9565813	Nov 29th 4:32 AM I once played my 54 side by side with two VI's, one with serial around 100K, which incidentally a superb sounding VI, the other one 160K. The did sound very similar. I felt that the 54 has slightly more power, while the 100K VI has more depth to the tone. As for resistance of the Ref. horns, I think it is only a set-up issue other than inherent problems with the Ref. horns. When I first got my 54, it has a number of leaks on both the lower and upper stacks. It was quite resistant, but not overly so. After it was well set up last week, it's now quite free blowing, and very responsive.
Dr G User ID: 7468553	Nov 29th 8:08 AM If you've been playing a VI, the palm keys shouldn't bother you. I played a BA for many years, went to a III, and am happiest with my Ref 36. Plenty fat, perhaps a little punchier than the 54. Still easy enough to throttle down for classical but loves to roar in the big band. Mouthpiece-wise, it's very flexible. I've used Barone Jazz and Hollywood, Lamberson SB, J&D Hite, and Morgan "L" - all with tip openings of .110" - and a Morgan 3C (.095")for classical.
Steve User ID: 8026483	Nov 29th 10:47 AM I tried a 54 tenor next to my 1955 VI with my Runyon Quantum. The 54 was "interesting" to me because: 1. Smoother (heavier) action; 2. Pitch and tone more consistent (sterile) even when pushed through it's dynamic range; 3. I liked the finish. I left with my VI because: 1. Action can be fixed; 2. Sterility lacks "character" (my term for the differences in openness of some of the notes); 3. I didn't like the finish more than my silver plating. 4. The VI is louder, brighter, and faster (great for jazz and rock). 5. I can deal with the pitch issues for now (practice).
bernd User ID: 8304653	Nov 29th 11:21 AM I tried a Ref36 compared to my SBA and MK VI (120k) and they all differ in sound/resistance etc., but not too much. Biggest difference for me: if you change airstream and/or push the old Selmers, they change their sound character. This gives me a lot of flexibility and color. The new Selmers don't do that.
Steve User ID: 8026483	Nov 29th 11:36 AM Agreed to above.
Bari Martin User ID: 9676623	Nov 29th 9:50 PM Steve and bernd; Thanks for the analyses. The 'sound character' and the ability to change it is the very essence of the pre-Mk VII Selmers and is the principle reason they will always be prized above all other tenors. I have been waiting for someone to come up with the phrase that perfectly explains this, and that's it. I remember well when the Mk VII came out that guys were saying 'It has no funk' and 'You can't bend notes'. They were perhaps saying the same thing, but in different ways. This is certainly not to say that the Ref 36, 54 and Serie III are not great horns, but for many of us, they just 'have no funk'.
MML User ID: 0909594	Nov 30th 12:59 PM I tried a Ref 54 today, overall sounds good but keywork are more tight & higher than other Selmer horn, not smooth. Do you think easy adjustment by a good technician without influence on the sound quailty?
BobD User ID: 9725373	Dec 1st 9:04 PM So, are many pro's playing these Ref horns? I did see Jerry Bergonzi playing one once but he said that he needed to get used to it becuase he was heading to Europe to play and since he's a Selmer artist he needed to play it. He sounded great on it but I don't know of anyone else playing the Ref horns. It seems athat most pro playters stick with there Selmers.
BobD User ID: 0352454	Dec 2nd 1:57 PM Dr. G, Why have you moved from a BA to a III to a 36? I would think such a sought after horn as a BA would be a keeper. Any regrets?
Dr G User ID: 8659853	Dec 2nd 2:36 PM Regrets? You bet. One of the most gorgeous horns I ever seen. If I could have afforded several horns at the time, I would have kept it. But, if I could have only one for section and quartet work, I needed something with better intonation and even timbre throughout the scale and it needed a serious overhaul of the mechanism - hence the III. Problem with the III was that the palm keys forced my hands into a bad position and, as much as I was playing, I started getting a repetitive stress injury in my left hand. With the Ref 36 I get the correct palm key ergo's, the punch of the BA, and a very solid working horn. Even now, much as I'd love to have a sweet looking BA such as I sold, I couldn't afford it without liquidating every other toy I own. And it would still have the chronic sharp bell notes and weak palm key notes. Great for small ensembles where "close enough for jazz" holds true but it just didn't work out for me as my musical collaborations changed. As to more pro's playing Ref's - it just doesn't matter to me who's playing what. Heck, there are lots of folks playing Yamaha, Yani, and Keilwerth but I'm not lining up for any of those. It'll be more interesting to see what starts gathering a following in years to come. The Ref's are still new horns on the scene. When players start wearing out their horns and look to replace them (and either cannot find or afford good vintage horns), then we'll see. Either way you cut it, it's a great time to be a tenor player. I love having a choice. And Bari, my Ref 36 has "the funk". Oh yeah...
Toby User ID: 8980403	Dec 6th 2:48 AM Ha ha ha, go for the tone! There is a short list of specific problems with factory new ref54's. Leaks, tight springs, thin neck cork, and (the worst) inconsistent neck diameter at the MPC tip. Now I'm hearing about finish problems but mine is fine. After all that, It's still a wonderful horn for me. Maybe I could have done better but I've yet to play a MKVI that makes "my" tone for me as naturally and easily as this horn. Look for a tip of .503 or .504 Call Mark Overton at Saxquest. He can help with necks. I lucked out with a .504 delivered but there are some .498's out there that folks are not liking. Matthew's music is selling the horns at a great price compared to vintage MKVI's which IMHO, have no less variation in quality and are all 40 years old.
Toby User ID: 8980403	Dec 6th 2:49 AM Ha ha ha, go for the tone! There is a short list of specific problems with factory new ref54's. Leaks, tight springs, thin neck cork, and (the worst) inconsistent neck diameter at the MPC tip. Now I'm hearing about finish problems but mine is fine. After all that, It's still a wonderful horn for me. Maybe I could have done better but I've yet to play a MKVI that makes "my" tone for me as naturally and easily as this horn. Look for a tip of .503 or .504 Call Mark Overton at Saxquest. He can help with necks. I lucked out with a .504 delivered but there are some .498's out there that folks are not liking. Matthew's music is selling the horns at a great price compared to vintage MKVI's which IMHO, have no less variation in quality and are all 40 years old.
stevew User ID: 0171704	Dec 7th 9:34 AM Back to the question RJ - if you have a pretty good VI, DONT DO IT! I have just done the reverse, gone from a 54 to a VI and it is just great. It is faster and smoother than my 54 but then if I'd had the 54 tweaked, I am sure it could have felt similar. The VI feels more nimble, more alive and is just so easy to play. And I like the finish and the palm keys...
Spaddy User ID: 8012303	Dec 10th 9:24 PM I did some side by side tests with BA and a 54, it was suprising. The BA was brighter! Not much...below low G the 54 is darker after that it is pretty hard to tell the difference. When my teacher played them there was some difference, however if they both were not there to do side by side testing it would be really hard to tell the differnce! Overall, if I owned a BA I would not change, if I was buying new I would definitly go for the 54.
Tommy Boy User ID: 9934403	Dec 10th 10:14 PM That has been my experience too with my 54 too. I compared it to a 161k Mark VI and the only difference is the slightly darker, lusher bottom end. Otherwise they were very similar.
Andy User ID: 0025534	Dec 11th 10:10 PM What about a Ref 36 compare with 54? Which horn has better rich tone, which is more thick sound? I heard some player said Ref 36 is more bright & has better and more smooth keywork compare with Ref 54, is it?
Tommy Boy User ID: 9934403	Dec 12th 8:02 AM The keywork between the Ref 54 and 36 is exactly the same. The Ref 36 has a rounder tone that is slight brighter than the Ref 54. The 54 has a darker more focused sound with more depth.