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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Conn Saxophones / Conn with NO engraving?

Jack W.
User ID: 1898874 Aug 6th 1:11 AM
I have the opportunity to buy a soprano that appears to be made by Conn, because it has what looks like the Conn style serial number and patent below the thumb ring. So far so good, but there is NO engraving on the bell, not even a brand name!

It is a 33k series, which if it had been finished completely in the factory, would be a Wonder model from 1915. But the Wonder straight sopranos were phased out by this point in favor of a new curved model (if I remember my research from saxpics's webpage correctly), until the New Wonder sopranos came out in (IIRC) 1917. This horn has drawn straight tone holes, not rolled. This would argue that it was destined to be a Wonder model, but I've been told that it's keyed to high F. (The keywork is removed, I have only seen the body, and I am unable to tell from looking at the tone holes and springs if it's keyed to high F. It is in the process of being overhauled.) I seem to recall Pete saying that the Wonder sopranos were keyed only to Eb, even the straight ones, and that Conn sopranos weren't keyed to F until the New Wonder model came out. I have also been told that the keys have pearls, not just cupped metal keys, which was also a feature of the New Wonder models.

The horn has perfect silverplate, which appears to be factory original (i.e. I doubt that the thing had the snot buffed out of it and then new silverplating put on, besides which the serial number and patent mark are still quite sharp).

As far as I can tell, there are two possibilities:

1. This is a New Wonder prototype Frankenhorn that may have actually been made in 1915, and was never intended for sale.

2. This is a Conn-made soprano that was destined to be stencilled by some company, but somehow escaped. The straight tone holes would support this; just yesterday I saw a New Wonder stencil C melody with straight tone holes. However, I thought a good percentage of Conn stencils had a P before the serial number (as the C melody did, and it wasn't even a Pan-American), while this one doesn't.

What do you all think? Any ideas about what it might be worth, fully overhauled? I am very tempted to do the deal (it will basically be a trade for a cheap Taiwanese clone plus $100) if only it plays in tune for me. Jason DuMars is keen to give it the engraving it never had, which I would have him make "reminiscent" of the factory engraving, but noticeably different to anyone even moderately knowledgeable, so that it can never be sold as a factory original C. G. Conn Ltd. New Wonder model soprano.

Thanks in advance for help in figuring this thing out! :)

OnyxSax
User ID: 2024664 Aug 6th 12:33 PM
I'd think it was a replate and that the engraving was not recut. The serial number is a stamping, not an engraving, so it will usually survive the buffing and plating process and still be legible, and in some cases, even look original.

When my Conn "Chu" tenor was replated, I had the engraving re-cut, but I did not have the serial number on the bottom of the G# key done. When I got the horn back, there was no trace of the number on the key.

I am in the process of acquiring a 26k Conn Curved soprano, and I know it does not have the rolled tone holes. Once I get it in my hands, I'd be more than happy to compare notes with you to see if your horn has other Conn characteristics.

paulwl
User ID: 9272753 Aug 6th 12:41 PM
Your horn reminds me of my unengraved, no-brand Conn #129xxx sopranino. It has nonrolled AND SOLDERED toneholes, a couple of which were obviously relocated and the tube patched with sheet brass. In addition, the bell had been shortened and a body band applied.

In the 1920s and 30s Conn did a good business in second-hand and reconditioned instruments of many makes. Sometimes they included their own prototypes in the sales. I was given a listing from 1930 that included a sopranino that I strongly suspect is my own -- for $45!

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Aug 6th 7:33 PM
if you are trading your mk6 sop for a conn at least get one w/rolled tone holes!!!

OnyxSax
User ID: 9683713 Aug 6th 9:24 PM
I've played a couple of Conn curved sops, both with and without the rolled tone holes. I can't discern any difference. We also put my 354,xxx 10M (non rolled tone holes) up next to a 319,xxx 10M (rolled tone holes) and found little difference. Rolled tone holes are similar to dew claws on dogs: They're neat, they actually might have some function, but the dog is perfectly capable of living without them.

Jack W.
User ID: 1898874 Aug 6th 11:10 PM
Don't worry, I'd be trading a Taiwanese clone curved soprano plus a bit of cash for this horn, not a Mark VI. And I'll only do it if it plays well, no fear. :)

I will try to get another look at the horn tomorrow, to make sure that the tone holes are drawn and not soldered. The other thing I want to recheck is the patent number. I've done some more reading on saxpics's webpage, where the "Haynes patent" is mentioned; this is "the Haynes", that is WS Haynes, whose company makes very fine handmade flutes to this day. The patent number on my 80k New Wonder alto, 1119954, was assigned to Haynes in 1914. Would it be correct to say that presence of this patent number on a sax means that it is a New Wonder model (series 1 that is, "pre-Chu")? If so, I'll look for this number on the "apparently Conn-made straight soprano" tomorrow.

Jack W.
User ID: 1898874 Aug 7th 1:21 AM
Update on this, I've heard from Bootman on the topic and stand corrected. Apparently the Haynes patent stamp only means that the horn is a New Wonder model AT THE EARLIEST, for it also appears on later saxes. I will try to get a look at the mystery horn tomorrow and post back with the results.

Bootman
User ID: 1676554 Aug 7th 4:53 AM
To clarify for all others.
The 1119954 Patent number is engraved on all my Conn saxes, curved sop (72K), C melody (80K), Tenor (239K), Baritone (246K) and Bass (117K). The exception is a 14K Conn tenor which has no patent markings at all. It has C.G.Conn engraved on the bell though.

jdumars
User ID: 9384353 Aug 7th 12:58 PM
i'm excited at the prospect of engraving the little bugger. :) i hope it plays well.

Jack W.
User ID: 1898874 Aug 7th 4:36 PM
I have spoken to the potential seller again; the Conn-made soprano does indeed have the Haynes patent on it. That clinches it; it's a New Wonder model all right, except with straight tone holes and no engraving. Weird.

The seller and I have agreed that it makes the most sense to repad it with standard Prestini-type pads with flat metal resonators, as there's no sense using Conn reso-pads if the tone holes are straight. It will probably be another 4-6 weeks until it's done as he's swamped with school band instruments at the moment. I will keep you all posted. And no fear Jason, the engraving job is definitely yours if I get this horn. :)

Jack W. User ID: 1898874	Aug 6th 1:11 AM I have the opportunity to buy a soprano that appears to be made by Conn, because it has what looks like the Conn style serial number and patent below the thumb ring. So far so good, but there is NO engraving on the bell, not even a brand name! It is a 33k series, which if it had been finished completely in the factory, would be a Wonder model from 1915. But the Wonder straight sopranos were phased out by this point in favor of a new curved model (if I remember my research from saxpics's webpage correctly), until the New Wonder sopranos came out in (IIRC) 1917. This horn has drawn straight tone holes, not rolled. This would argue that it was destined to be a Wonder model, but I've been told that it's keyed to high F. (The keywork is removed, I have only seen the body, and I am unable to tell from looking at the tone holes and springs if it's keyed to high F. It is in the process of being overhauled.) I seem to recall Pete saying that the Wonder sopranos were keyed only to Eb, even the straight ones, and that Conn sopranos weren't keyed to F until the New Wonder model came out. I have also been told that the keys have pearls, not just cupped metal keys, which was also a feature of the New Wonder models. The horn has perfect silverplate, which appears to be factory original (i.e. I doubt that the thing had the snot buffed out of it and then new silverplating put on, besides which the serial number and patent mark are still quite sharp). As far as I can tell, there are two possibilities: 1. This is a New Wonder prototype Frankenhorn that may have actually been made in 1915, and was never intended for sale. 2. This is a Conn-made soprano that was destined to be stencilled by some company, but somehow escaped. The straight tone holes would support this; just yesterday I saw a New Wonder stencil C melody with straight tone holes. However, I thought a good percentage of Conn stencils had a P before the serial number (as the C melody did, and it wasn't even a Pan-American), while this one doesn't. What do you all think? Any ideas about what it might be worth, fully overhauled? I am very tempted to do the deal (it will basically be a trade for a cheap Taiwanese clone plus $100) if only it plays in tune for me. Jason DuMars is keen to give it the engraving it never had, which I would have him make "reminiscent" of the factory engraving, but noticeably different to anyone even moderately knowledgeable, so that it can never be sold as a factory original C. G. Conn Ltd. New Wonder model soprano. Thanks in advance for help in figuring this thing out! :)
OnyxSax User ID: 2024664	Aug 6th 12:33 PM I'd think it was a replate and that the engraving was not recut. The serial number is a stamping, not an engraving, so it will usually survive the buffing and plating process and still be legible, and in some cases, even look original. When my Conn "Chu" tenor was replated, I had the engraving re-cut, but I did not have the serial number on the bottom of the G# key done. When I got the horn back, there was no trace of the number on the key. I am in the process of acquiring a 26k Conn Curved soprano, and I know it does not have the rolled tone holes. Once I get it in my hands, I'd be more than happy to compare notes with you to see if your horn has other Conn characteristics.
paulwl User ID: 9272753	Aug 6th 12:41 PM Your horn reminds me of my unengraved, no-brand Conn #129xxx sopranino. It has nonrolled AND SOLDERED toneholes, a couple of which were obviously relocated and the tube patched with sheet brass. In addition, the bell had been shortened and a body band applied. In the 1920s and 30s Conn did a good business in second-hand and reconditioned instruments of many makes. Sometimes they included their own prototypes in the sales. I was given a listing from 1930 that included a sopranino that I strongly suspect is my own -- for $45!
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Aug 6th 7:33 PM if you are trading your mk6 sop for a conn at least get one w/rolled tone holes!!!
OnyxSax User ID: 9683713	Aug 6th 9:24 PM I've played a couple of Conn curved sops, both with and without the rolled tone holes. I can't discern any difference. We also put my 354,xxx 10M (non rolled tone holes) up next to a 319,xxx 10M (rolled tone holes) and found little difference. Rolled tone holes are similar to dew claws on dogs: They're neat, they actually might have some function, but the dog is perfectly capable of living without them.
Jack W. User ID: 1898874	Aug 6th 11:10 PM Don't worry, I'd be trading a Taiwanese clone curved soprano plus a bit of cash for this horn, not a Mark VI. And I'll only do it if it plays well, no fear. :) I will try to get another look at the horn tomorrow, to make sure that the tone holes are drawn and not soldered. The other thing I want to recheck is the patent number. I've done some more reading on saxpics's webpage, where the "Haynes patent" is mentioned; this is "the Haynes", that is WS Haynes, whose company makes very fine handmade flutes to this day. The patent number on my 80k New Wonder alto, 1119954, was assigned to Haynes in 1914. Would it be correct to say that presence of this patent number on a sax means that it is a New Wonder model (series 1 that is, "pre-Chu")? If so, I'll look for this number on the "apparently Conn-made straight soprano" tomorrow.
Jack W. User ID: 1898874	Aug 7th 1:21 AM Update on this, I've heard from Bootman on the topic and stand corrected. Apparently the Haynes patent stamp only means that the horn is a New Wonder model AT THE EARLIEST, for it also appears on later saxes. I will try to get a look at the mystery horn tomorrow and post back with the results.
Bootman User ID: 1676554	Aug 7th 4:53 AM To clarify for all others. The 1119954 Patent number is engraved on all my Conn saxes, curved sop (72K), C melody (80K), Tenor (239K), Baritone (246K) and Bass (117K). The exception is a 14K Conn tenor which has no patent markings at all. It has C.G.Conn engraved on the bell though.
jdumars User ID: 9384353	Aug 7th 12:58 PM i'm excited at the prospect of engraving the little bugger. :) i hope it plays well.
Jack W. User ID: 1898874	Aug 7th 4:36 PM I have spoken to the potential seller again; the Conn-made soprano does indeed have the Haynes patent on it. That clinches it; it's a New Wonder model all right, except with straight tone holes and no engraving. Weird. The seller and I have agreed that it makes the most sense to repad it with standard Prestini-type pads with flat metal resonators, as there's no sense using Conn reso-pads if the tone holes are straight. It will probably be another 4-6 weeks until it's done as he's swamped with school band instruments at the moment. I will keep you all posted. And no fear Jason, the engraving job is definitely yours if I get this horn. :)