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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Conn Saxophones / 16Ms: US or Mexico?

Next 20 Messages

jbach
User ID: 9412633 Jun 13th 5:13 PM
Many remarks around about the drop in quality in Mexican built horns. Not clear how to tell the difference visually. Some folks warn against serial# with a letter prefix (especially 'N' for Nogales) but it seems that ALL Conns from the 50s on had letters, the letter changing from year to year. Saxpix mentions bell keys on the right hand side as a mark of Mexi-conns. Does anyone have more precise serial number or configuration info?
Or should one just write off any 16M after 1960?

mutha potamus
User ID: 0624334 Jun 13th 9:33 PM
NONE of my 4 Shooting Stars (from '56 to '60) have letter prefixes. All are powerful horns that I believe are drasticlly underappreciated & (fortunately for me when I bought them) undervalued.

Letters with an "N" are mexican horns. Other letters from the are supposedly Elkhart horns but after 1963 (I think) it get's foggy what was made where.

A really good way to tell is whether your horn has wire keyguards or the stamped kind. Wire guards are a definite sign of an Elkhart horn.

jbach
User ID: 9412633 Jun 14th 1:53 PM
So, looking at ebay pics I assume you mean that the key guards for the bell keys (on the left) are made of metal rods rather than the one-piece sheet-metal cut out.

FOUR shooting stars? That must be why older horns, even the less 'glamorous' ones, are so pricey these days; hoarding.

Thanks Mr. Potamus

mutha potamus
User ID: 0624334 Jun 15th 1:16 PM
Jbach, that's the type of keyguards I'm talking about.

One can never have too many saxophones.

mutha potamus
User ID: 0624334 Jun 15th 1:32 PM
FWIW, I paid less than $900 for ALL four.

jbach
User ID: 9412633 Jun 15th 10:01 PM
Grrrrr!

$900/4 (sound of mathematical gears grinding) Thats $225 each. I paid more for my poor, benighted, brutally 'improved,' leaking like a seive 1924 Buescher.

Any spares?

DD
User ID: 8158483 Jun 18th 8:28 AM
Mutha, Do you have a pic of the keyguards you are talking about? Thanks

Durand
User ID: 0122954 Jun 18th 4:19 PM
I have a 16M tenor (excellent horn) and it is made in USA. I have an alto with bell key guards in the right side and an N before serial number, also excellent and possibly made in Mexico.
For me, it doesn't matter where they were made. Both of them are good horns and have good pitch and are perfect for gigs.

mutha potamus
User ID: 1278884 Jun 18th 5:10 PM
DD, I don't have any pics onhand but I'll check ebay & post a link to one that has wire keyguards.

mutha potamus
User ID: 1278884 Jun 18th 5:17 PM
Check out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=885232899

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 19th 10:45 AM
Let's back up a bit.

* 1959/1960: Conn acquired the Best Manufacturing company in Nogales, Arizona and started moving all STUDENT model production there.
* 1969 marked the date that Conn was bought by Crowell-Collier MacMillan and Conn craftsmanship REALLY went downhill. All production is transferred to Nogales.
* The last Conn to come out of the US factory was in 1971.
* 1974 marked the date Daniel J. Henkin bought Conn and started stencilling pro and intermediate saxophones from Keilwerth
* 1984 marked the date Conn was "amalgamated" into UMI. There hasn't been a "professional" quality Conn sax since.

The 14/16M Director model ("Shooting Stars") horns are the "good" models (they're essentially redesigned Pan American horns), even though some later 7M (etc.) have the same engraving. The 14 and 16M were marketed as intermediate horns, though.

The 7M, etc. that have the sheet metal keyguards (like the kind you find on a modern Buffet or Selmer -- or Conn for that matter) are all low quality, student horns, although some were made in the US before the Conn buyout.

I've mentioned this before: for whatever reason, Conn student/intermediate horns have slightly different serial numbers than pro horns. I don't know why. It's very true that all hors starting with an N for a serial number were made in Nogales.

Conclusion: if it's got sheet metal keyguards, you don't want it -- except if it says 92, 94, 108 or 110M on it (they're Keilwerth made).

If you want bunches of pictures and more info, hop on down to my Conn "mini-site" at
www.saxpics.com/conn

Hope this helps!
Pete
saxpics@hotmail.com

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 Jun 20th 9:03 AM
Pete, Lotsa good info there. I think all sheet metal keyguard 10Ms are good too. I think some 16Ms had smk's too.

In '69 if all production was tranferred, how did a horn still get made in the US in '71? I assume you mean this is still a transistion period?

I'm not sure that "N" serial numbers stands for Nogales. Conn appears to be just running through the alphabet. If they started making horns at Nogales in '69, there are probably a few "M" series. I've seen one "R" series 10M on eBay a while back that looked like my US made '67 and '68 10Ms.

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 22nd 11:23 AM
Sorry. "... was to be transferred to Nogales. In 1971, ..."

I didn't mean to suggest that JUST serial numbers that start with "N" were made in Nogales, I just said that ALL serial numbers starting with "N" were made in Nogales (and please note my comments on student/intermediate horns: they sometimes have odd serial numbers that follow their own chart).

Sorry for any cofnusion.

In any event, it is widely thought here and elsewhere that if you've got SMK on a Conn (except for the Keilwerths), it's not that great of a horn. As always, your mileage may vary and I'm happy you've got a couple you like, Mojo.

Your other comments on serial numbers is accurate, AFAIK, and I never have suggested that the "N" stands for Nogales. (Also note my comments on a previous thread that Conn recycled their serial numbers a couple times.)

Finally, remember that Conn recycled model numbers: AFAIK, the 16M alto and 18M tenor patterned after the Pan Americans never had SMK, but there's a later tenor that did, and I believe its model number is ALSO 16M.

(The recycled Conn model numbers are extremely annoying and confusing. The best solution when you're talking about a Conn is either refer to the entire model name, e.g. "16M Director", or say what pitch and model number you're talking about, e.g. "16M alto".)

MojoBari
User ID: 1195644 Jun 22nd 7:55 PM
It wasn't so much you. I've seen a bunch of people write N=Nogales.

Steve Goodson say on his site that he thinks the later 10Ms are underated, a good value. I think the convenient rule-of-thumb that sheet metal keyguard Conns are not as good as the wire keyguaerd ones has caused a lot of player to not give them a look.

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 23rd 12:54 AM
I think what Steve is referring to are either the 10M's produced after 1948/1949 that don't have rolled tone holes, or the 10M's produced from 1959/1960 to around 1969/70/71 that were produced with underslung octave keys -- but with wire keyguards.

(However, I can't find the specific statement that you refer to, and I'm not gonna put words in Mr. Goodson's mouth.)

My opinion always has been that people should play test anything before they buy it. I know that this isn't the case nowadays -- people wanna get a "good deal" on eBay.

All kidding aside: have you played/seen/heard of lots of 10m's with SMK being good horns -- or is it that, you might find one or two out of a bunch that are good? I'd say there's a lot more negative pub -- possibly not all deserved, I'll grant you -- on Conns with SMK than those without.

... and I doubt you'll find many that'd agree with you that a 1972 Conn 10M is as good as a 1941 Conn 10M, all things being equal.

Also, there probably weren't that many 6M/10M's with SMK, if any at all: they would have been produced after 1969 and before 1974, and pro horns weren't MacMillian's focus.

MojoBari
User ID: 1195644 Jun 23rd 11:09 AM
Steve's current comment under his valuation guide:

... the tenor got an underslung octave mechanism in the 50’s; and they all gained nickel keywork. These later examples play very well, but you should deduct 50%...

He's either changed this slightly or I remember it incorrectly. I thought he had stronger words of praise than this.

I have only briefly played a couple of old 10Ms at the DC sotw get-together. I played next to a bunch of them. The only reason I own 60's 10M is because I had one that I beat up through marching bands and it was cheaper to buy one in better shape than to try and fix up my 1st one to top condition.

My 2nd one is a real winner. Probably my luck more than skill since I bought it without play testing it. I'll bet it has a better low note response than most 10Ms. A few other players have tried mine and that is the general impression. Maybe its the large flat metal tone boosters on it. But my 1st one aint real bad either. So am I lucky to get 2 good ones (a '67 and '68) without really trying? Maybe I have not played or heard a really great old 10M. I played OynxSax's 10M refubed, I think, by Gayle. I thought it was awesome, but mine could get in the ring with it.

I do not have any other data/experiance than this. But I think most players who say US made SMK Conns are not so good, have never played one or have only played one.

MojoBari
User ID: 1195644 Jun 23rd 11:19 AM
I think one reason my low note response is good on later 10Ms it the double socket neck. They are more leak proof.

I dont think the underlung vent is an advantage. It also makes the octave key mechanism more complex to regulate with the way it implements its reverse action.

Rolled tone holes: I think they are a non-issue.

Nickle plated keys: Look yucky on a pro horn, but not a sound issue.

Some say later 10Ms are brighter. If they are, it is subtle. And this may be an advantage!

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 24th 10:22 PM
... but your 10M has wire keyguards, does it not?

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 Jun 25th 8:10 AM
Nope. See it at http://fowlermusic.com/saxesi.htm

It was an eBay sax and I could not find out who did the overhaul. It was sold by a drum store. Some think its gawdy, but most think its a looker.

I've seen pictures of an early '64 with wires (C98036), and a late '64 (E20893) with smk.

I've heard that in the 50's the old 10M tooling became the 16M and the Pan Am. If so, this means the new 10M tooling could produce a different sounding horn. But worn tooling, materials, workers, etc. can do this too.

My notes say in '56 the double socket neck started on tenor. Could be this is when the change occured. Rolled tone holes stopped in '48.

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 25th 12:26 PM
I disagree with your comments on the tooling, as post 1948/1949 horns lack rolled tone holes, which suggests different tooling, as Conn RTH weren't soldered -- and the other apocryphal stories that say a factory worker broke the 10M mold, and Conn had to make another one.

Also note that the 16M more resembles the Pan American produced in the 1930's, than it does a pre-1948/9 10M -- and many folks say the 16M is based on the Pan Am design. (And my best notes say the 16/18M was introduced in 1955. I'll give you the year, tho :)

Anyhow, you've started the seed of doubt eith pictures of your horn, but I've got pictures of a later E-series (1965) and an H-series 6M (1966) with WK. They're also different from your horn (nice customization job, I might add) in that they don't have the Conn "C" body brace. Does the other horn that you've seen have the same brace? There's gotta be another reason why there's a significant design difference.

Your horn is what, '67 or '68? Could it be an early '69? That could make it a MacMillian horn, in the first year of their ownership and then the 6/10M was discontinued -- as I've mentioned, I haven't been able to come up with a completely satisfying date that the Conn-designed 6/10M went away.

How 'bout "All Conns with SMK, except for SOME 6/10M's and ALL 92/94/108/110M's, are junk"? Again, as I mention, I was unaware that Conn was actually selling 6 or 10M's with SMK prior to 1969 -- and I bet 99% of the sax community is, too, but I'm not 100% convinced on your E-series 10M -- the keyguard could have been added later. If it's got the same bell-to-body brace as your tenor, I think your point has been proven.

Next 20 Messages

jbach User ID: 9412633	Jun 13th 5:13 PM Many remarks around about the drop in quality in Mexican built horns. Not clear how to tell the difference visually. Some folks warn against serial# with a letter prefix (especially 'N' for Nogales) but it seems that ALL Conns from the 50s on had letters, the letter changing from year to year. Saxpix mentions bell keys on the right hand side as a mark of Mexi-conns. Does anyone have more precise serial number or configuration info? Or should one just write off any 16M after 1960?
mutha potamus User ID: 0624334	Jun 13th 9:33 PM NONE of my 4 Shooting Stars (from '56 to '60) have letter prefixes. All are powerful horns that I believe are drasticlly underappreciated & (fortunately for me when I bought them) undervalued. Letters with an "N" are mexican horns. Other letters from the are supposedly Elkhart horns but after 1963 (I think) it get's foggy what was made where. A really good way to tell is whether your horn has wire keyguards or the stamped kind. Wire guards are a definite sign of an Elkhart horn.
jbach User ID: 9412633	Jun 14th 1:53 PM So, looking at ebay pics I assume you mean that the key guards for the bell keys (on the left) are made of metal rods rather than the one-piece sheet-metal cut out. FOUR shooting stars? That must be why older horns, even the less 'glamorous' ones, are so pricey these days; hoarding. Thanks Mr. Potamus
mutha potamus User ID: 0624334	Jun 15th 1:16 PM Jbach, that's the type of keyguards I'm talking about. One can never have too many saxophones.
mutha potamus User ID: 0624334	Jun 15th 1:32 PM FWIW, I paid less than $900 for ALL four.
jbach User ID: 9412633	Jun 15th 10:01 PM Grrrrr! $900/4 (sound of mathematical gears grinding) Thats $225 each. I paid more for my poor, benighted, brutally 'improved,' leaking like a seive 1924 Buescher. Any spares?
DD User ID: 8158483	Jun 18th 8:28 AM Mutha, Do you have a pic of the keyguards you are talking about? Thanks
Durand User ID: 0122954	Jun 18th 4:19 PM I have a 16M tenor (excellent horn) and it is made in USA. I have an alto with bell key guards in the right side and an N before serial number, also excellent and possibly made in Mexico. For me, it doesn't matter where they were made. Both of them are good horns and have good pitch and are perfect for gigs.
mutha potamus User ID: 1278884	Jun 18th 5:10 PM DD, I don't have any pics onhand but I'll check ebay & post a link to one that has wire keyguards.
mutha potamus User ID: 1278884	Jun 18th 5:17 PM Check out http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=885232899
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 19th 10:45 AM Let's back up a bit. * 1959/1960: Conn acquired the Best Manufacturing company in Nogales, Arizona and started moving all STUDENT model production there. * 1969 marked the date that Conn was bought by Crowell-Collier MacMillan and Conn craftsmanship REALLY went downhill. All production is transferred to Nogales. * The last Conn to come out of the US factory was in 1971. * 1974 marked the date Daniel J. Henkin bought Conn and started stencilling pro and intermediate saxophones from Keilwerth * 1984 marked the date Conn was "amalgamated" into UMI. There hasn't been a "professional" quality Conn sax since. The 14/16M Director model ("Shooting Stars") horns are the "good" models (they're essentially redesigned Pan American horns), even though some later 7M (etc.) have the same engraving. The 14 and 16M were marketed as intermediate horns, though. The 7M, etc. that have the sheet metal keyguards (like the kind you find on a modern Buffet or Selmer -- or Conn for that matter) are all low quality, student horns, although some were made in the US before the Conn buyout. I've mentioned this before: for whatever reason, Conn student/intermediate horns have slightly different serial numbers than pro horns. I don't know why. It's very true that all hors starting with an N for a serial number were made in Nogales. Conclusion: if it's got sheet metal keyguards, you don't want it -- except if it says 92, 94, 108 or 110M on it (they're Keilwerth made). If you want bunches of pictures and more info, hop on down to my Conn "mini-site" at www.saxpics.com/conn Hope this helps! Pete saxpics@hotmail.com
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	Jun 20th 9:03 AM Pete, Lotsa good info there. I think all sheet metal keyguard 10Ms are good too. I think some 16Ms had smk's too. In '69 if all production was tranferred, how did a horn still get made in the US in '71? I assume you mean this is still a transistion period? I'm not sure that "N" serial numbers stands for Nogales. Conn appears to be just running through the alphabet. If they started making horns at Nogales in '69, there are probably a few "M" series. I've seen one "R" series 10M on eBay a while back that looked like my US made '67 and '68 10Ms.
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 22nd 11:23 AM Sorry. "... was to be transferred to Nogales. In 1971, ..." I didn't mean to suggest that JUST serial numbers that start with "N" were made in Nogales, I just said that ALL serial numbers starting with "N" were made in Nogales (and please note my comments on student/intermediate horns: they sometimes have odd serial numbers that follow their own chart). Sorry for any cofnusion. In any event, it is widely thought here and elsewhere that if you've got SMK on a Conn (except for the Keilwerths), it's not that great of a horn. As always, your mileage may vary and I'm happy you've got a couple you like, Mojo. Your other comments on serial numbers is accurate, AFAIK, and I never have suggested that the "N" stands for Nogales. (Also note my comments on a previous thread that Conn recycled their serial numbers a couple times.) Finally, remember that Conn recycled model numbers: AFAIK, the 16M alto and 18M tenor patterned after the Pan Americans never had SMK, but there's a later tenor that did, and I believe its model number is ALSO 16M. (The recycled Conn model numbers are extremely annoying and confusing. The best solution when you're talking about a Conn is either refer to the entire model name, e.g. "16M Director", or say what pitch and model number you're talking about, e.g. "16M alto".)
MojoBari User ID: 1195644	Jun 22nd 7:55 PM It wasn't so much you. I've seen a bunch of people write N=Nogales. Steve Goodson say on his site that he thinks the later 10Ms are underated, a good value. I think the convenient rule-of-thumb that sheet metal keyguard Conns are not as good as the wire keyguaerd ones has caused a lot of player to not give them a look.
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 23rd 12:54 AM I think what Steve is referring to are either the 10M's produced after 1948/1949 that don't have rolled tone holes, or the 10M's produced from 1959/1960 to around 1969/70/71 that were produced with underslung octave keys -- but with wire keyguards. (However, I can't find the specific statement that you refer to, and I'm not gonna put words in Mr. Goodson's mouth.) My opinion always has been that people should play test anything before they buy it. I know that this isn't the case nowadays -- people wanna get a "good deal" on eBay. All kidding aside: have you played/seen/heard of lots of 10m's with SMK being good horns -- or is it that, you might find one or two out of a bunch that are good? I'd say there's a lot more negative pub -- possibly not all deserved, I'll grant you -- on Conns with SMK than those without. ... and I doubt you'll find many that'd agree with you that a 1972 Conn 10M is as good as a 1941 Conn 10M, all things being equal. Also, there probably weren't that many 6M/10M's with SMK, if any at all: they would have been produced after 1969 and before 1974, and pro horns weren't MacMillian's focus.
MojoBari User ID: 1195644	Jun 23rd 11:09 AM Steve's current comment under his valuation guide: ... the tenor got an underslung octave mechanism in the 50’s; and they all gained nickel keywork. These later examples play very well, but you should deduct 50%... He's either changed this slightly or I remember it incorrectly. I thought he had stronger words of praise than this. I have only briefly played a couple of old 10Ms at the DC sotw get-together. I played next to a bunch of them. The only reason I own 60's 10M is because I had one that I beat up through marching bands and it was cheaper to buy one in better shape than to try and fix up my 1st one to top condition. My 2nd one is a real winner. Probably my luck more than skill since I bought it without play testing it. I'll bet it has a better low note response than most 10Ms. A few other players have tried mine and that is the general impression. Maybe its the large flat metal tone boosters on it. But my 1st one aint real bad either. So am I lucky to get 2 good ones (a '67 and '68) without really trying? Maybe I have not played or heard a really great old 10M. I played OynxSax's 10M refubed, I think, by Gayle. I thought it was awesome, but mine could get in the ring with it. I do not have any other data/experiance than this. But I think most players who say US made SMK Conns are not so good, have never played one or have only played one.
MojoBari User ID: 1195644	Jun 23rd 11:19 AM I think one reason my low note response is good on later 10Ms it the double socket neck. They are more leak proof. I dont think the underlung vent is an advantage. It also makes the octave key mechanism more complex to regulate with the way it implements its reverse action. Rolled tone holes: I think they are a non-issue. Nickle plated keys: Look yucky on a pro horn, but not a sound issue. Some say later 10Ms are brighter. If they are, it is subtle. And this may be an advantage!
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 24th 10:22 PM ... but your 10M has wire keyguards, does it not?
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	Jun 25th 8:10 AM Nope. See it at http://fowlermusic.com/saxesi.htm It was an eBay sax and I could not find out who did the overhaul. It was sold by a drum store. Some think its gawdy, but most think its a looker. I've seen pictures of an early '64 with wires (C98036), and a late '64 (E20893) with smk. I've heard that in the 50's the old 10M tooling became the 16M and the Pan Am. If so, this means the new 10M tooling could produce a different sounding horn. But worn tooling, materials, workers, etc. can do this too. My notes say in '56 the double socket neck started on tenor. Could be this is when the change occured. Rolled tone holes stopped in '48.
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 25th 12:26 PM I disagree with your comments on the tooling, as post 1948/1949 horns lack rolled tone holes, which suggests different tooling, as Conn RTH weren't soldered -- and the other apocryphal stories that say a factory worker broke the 10M mold, and Conn had to make another one. Also note that the 16M more resembles the Pan American produced in the 1930's, than it does a pre-1948/9 10M -- and many folks say the 16M is based on the Pan Am design. (And my best notes say the 16/18M was introduced in 1955. I'll give you the year, tho :) Anyhow, you've started the seed of doubt eith pictures of your horn, but I've got pictures of a later E-series (1965) and an H-series 6M (1966) with WK. They're also different from your horn (nice customization job, I might add) in that they don't have the Conn "C" body brace. Does the other horn that you've seen have the same brace? There's gotta be another reason why there's a significant design difference. Your horn is what, '67 or '68? Could it be an early '69? That could make it a MacMillian horn, in the first year of their ownership and then the 6/10M was discontinued -- as I've mentioned, I haven't been able to come up with a completely satisfying date that the Conn-designed 6/10M went away. How 'bout "All Conns with SMK, except for SOME 6/10M's and ALL 92/94/108/110M's, are junk"? Again, as I mention, I was unaware that Conn was actually selling 6 or 10M's with SMK prior to 1969 -- and I bet 99% of the sax community is, too, but I'm not 100% convinced on your E-series 10M -- the keyguard could have been added later. If it's got the same bell-to-body brace as your tenor, I think your point has been proven.