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Sax on the Web Archive / Buffet Archive / Buffet S1 pitch???

Back 20 Messages

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 3rd 8:46 PM
I have a Buffet S1 tenor which I THOUGHT was A=440hz.Now,I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine must be A=442hz.It doesn´t have any letters (A or E) after the serialnumber(306650) so it must be high-pitch horn then.Another thing,it doesn´t have that metal bar under the neck curve (like other S1`s seem to have).Only thing I´ve noticed about this horn is that I have to push my mouthpiece (any of them) really deep,about 1,5 inches (3,8 centimeters).Doesn´t that mean that the pitch is actually lower? Is it possible to play this high-pitch horn with A=440hz instruments or is there going to be some tuning difficulties? I don´t need a horn that can´t play in tune with the rest of the band,thats for sure!!!

saxpics
User ID: 9802413 Mar 8th 6:42 PM
I'm suprised no one sent an e-mail my way, considering my fairly publicized debates with Boosey & Hawkes on these issues :)

* Boosey themselves insist that S1 and horns with an "A" after the serial number are A=440hz; the "A" stands for "American". Horns with an "E" or NOTHING after the serial number are supposed to be A=442hz; the "E" stands for "European."
* Boosey says that American horns had their necks tweaked somewhat, this goes with morgan's comments, above.
* Boosey says that the current Buffet, the S3 (silver plate) and S3 Prestige (copper) is available in A=440hz, if you custom order it.
* stevew is correct on the S1 sopranos. If you wanted the kewl S1 keywork on the soprano, you'd have to get an S1 Prestige soprano (copper)
* mutha potamus is essentially right in that the whole of the horn has to be changed to change pitch, unlike closed-pipe instruments (e.g. a trumpet), where you can just stick in some tubing to change pitch. Of course, you've gotta consider tone hole placement and bore size.
* stevew (I believe) had a link to a file that had one side A=440hz and the other A=442hz. It's annoying, but not all that bad. Problems would definitely arise if a piece you're playing is either in a microtuned scale or if you play a bunch of long tones -- or, as morgan mentions, you play with an exceptionally tuned piano ("tempered" scales on a piano refer to how, for instance, the low strings are tuned a bit flat because it "sounds" more in tune than if the strings were dead-on on the tuner)
* Errata: all S2's are A=442hz. S1 baritones were mostly unchanged from their SDA bretheren (no odd keywork), but there was an S1 Prestige copper bari, which may have had the interesting keywork that the S1 alto had (it's not pictured in the catalog I recently got from an SOTW poster). There were no S2 baris. However, as Paul T mentions (and I can confirm), a 1970-ish catalog and a 1981 catalog have different model numbers for the S1 horns.

MBushaw
User ID: 8374593 Mar 8th 9:02 PM
Morgan- You state that the difference between 442 and 440 is 10 cents. I'd like to know how you came to that figure. Where I come from, 'cents' is shorthand for percent. 442 is 0.48 percent higher than 440.

stevew
User ID: 1460434 Mar 9th 1:36 AM
http://www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm

I am not sure of the ownership of this, but it seems a scholarly collection and there are lots of pics of Buffets....Is this a mirror of the old saxpics stuff?

morgan
User ID: 0784604 Mar 9th 1:39 AM
I believe a 'cent' is 1/100 of a half step.
To go up by half a step you would multiply the frequency by (approximately) the twelfth root of 2, which is about 1.059463094
That gives Bb as approximately 466Hz, or about 26Hz away. So 2 hz at 440Hz is VERY roughly 1/10 of the (26Hz) difference, or 10% or 10 cents. Or if "cents" are a logarithmic 1/100 then we have another story...hmmm... that would mean to move one cent you would multiply by the 1200th root of two, which is approx. 1.00057779, ... hmmm by this reckoning 442 is only eight cents sharp

MBushaw
User ID: 9697893 Mar 9th 10:32 AM
Morgan, OK, that makes sense (cents?). I needed to step away from my engineering side and into my music side to see that the real point of reference should be the note and not the absolute frequency. So when talking about music, cent is shorthand for the percent of difference between two half step tones. Thanks for the clarification.
I still maintain that the difference on an alto sax is not an issue.

Tonto
User ID: 1718124 Mar 9th 10:39 AM
"Centavos" are less then cents.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 9th 10:58 AM
Just to add some more confusion over this matter,on www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm site it says that S1s "..also may be the last Buffet produced in the standard LOW-PITCH,A=440Hz".Well,well...OK,I took the S1 tenor to a gig couple of nights ago,tried to listen very carefully if it was in tune.Firstly,I DIDN`T hear any major problems with the tuning BUT it is quite different horn from my JK or MKVI to keep in tune (both tenors,too).So,I guess I just have to learn to play this S1,so I can keep it in tune.Ofcourse,have to keep in mind that this was done in a gig situation,not the best situation to hear the small differences in tuning (and other finesses)

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 9th 8:38 PM
I checked my S1 tenor with a tuner.OK,heres the result:no major differences between 440Hz or 442Hz.The upper register was bit sharp on both pitches but thats me,not the horn (happens on my other tenors,too).All I had to do was to pull the moutpiece out a bit (about 5mm) to play in tune when tuner was set on 440Hz.And push it in when tuner was set 442Hz.The horn wasn´t any better in tune when tuner was set on 442Hz than when it was set 440Hz.

morgan
User ID: 0784604 Mar 9th 9:41 PM
<<I strongly doubt even they know what pich their S1 horns were>>

NOW we're getting somewhere! LOL!

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 9th 9:47 PM
OK,Morgan,I was just confused a little,OK?

Stevew
User ID: 9836983 Mar 10th 2:08 AM
Subtone Sam, your findings were the same as mine on alto with a more succinct report. I find any new horn or mouthpiece for that matter takes a while to learn to play in tune. I do not have a problem playing this one in tune.

saxpics
User ID: 3445384 Mar 10th 7:12 PM
Grr. Message eaten by eesites.

Anyhow, the http://www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm
website is an illegal copy of my website made without my knowledge. I've sent an e-mail to the webmaster telling him to remove the pages.

Fortunately, only my OLD Buffet page seems to have been copied.

More in a bit!
Pete

saxpics
User ID: 0436494 Mar 11th 10:22 PM
Well. That was fun.

As mentioned above, I sent an e-mail to the webmaster of this Korean 'site and the page in question has been deleted and he forwarded me an apology saying that, "Someone on my staff copied it. He was later told this was illegal, so we didn't link the page" (just kinda forgot to delete it, hmmm?)

Anyhow, I refer back to the original Buffet ads, this time a brand spankin' new Buffet clarinet catalog: An Elite model A clarinet (with the best description I've ever seen for advantages: "Gold-plated posts facilitate harmonic vibrations") is listed as "440/442" for pitch, but has TWO barrels, a 63 and 65mm. Turn the page and there's an R13 A clarinet pitched at 440 with a 65mm barrel. Put this together with Boosey's comments about "modifying the neck [on the S1/S3] for the American market", you've got your two pitches of saxophone.

(I picked the A clarinet as my example, because they have the most consistent measurements thoughout the catalog, and we're talking about A=? ... OK, bad joke.)

However, just modifying the neck shouldn't change the intonation of the entire horn to A=442hz, I'd think. I'd think that you'd have a saxophone that plays more consistently (emphasize CONSISTENTLY) in tune at one pitch or the other, but I also think that most players could probably adjust to this miniscule difference in pitch unconsciously (please see the Buffet-Powell thread in here).

Now, in the 1980-ish wall poster for Buffet, look down to where it says "Bassoons". It says "Pitch 440-444". I don't know enough about Bassoons to easily explain that away.

David K
User ID: 1718124 Mar 19th 10:28 AM
A-440Hz saxophone, playing a duet with A-442Hz saxophone would make a pleasing combination!!

This would be an accepted musical phenomena.

Taken from the book, The Art of Playing Hohner Diatonic Accordions: "With the second stop raised another set of reeds operate that are tuned slightly at variance; not enough to be discordant but sufficient to provide a pleasing tremolo effect." !!!!!

Rollen
User ID: 0658904 Mar 19th 2:57 PM
lengthening/shortening the neck would, in my estimation, flatten/sharpen just the same as pulling out/pushing in the mouthpiece. It affects the overall volume of the sax 'cone'. More volume would make it flatter, less makes it sharper. Have to check "The saxophone is my voice" book.

stevew
User ID: 8959213 Mar 19th 3:23 PM
Having acquired a S1 tenor as well, I am pleased to report that also plays well in tune all over at A=440Hz.

Wouldn't the chamber size in the mouthpiece have an appreciable (or at least 2 Hz worth) effect on the tuning as well? I noticed mine has better intonation with a 50's Link copy than with a Berg Larsen, for example.

saxpics
User ID: 2045054 Mar 19th 10:36 PM
This is a fun -- and annoying -- thread :)

I certianly accept that the minor variances in pitch from A=440 to A=442 are not that great and do create a bit of a tremolo effect (or even a wavy Guy Lombardo vibrato).

In the real world of acoustic instruments, where you're expected never to be exactly in tune, you're constantly adjusting and 2 cents sharp/flat is "close enough for jazz" this is 100% absotively true.

In the somewhat artificial world of digitial instruments, this isn't true at all.

Admittedly, "stretch" or tempered tuning is availible on many synthesizers/samplers, this is generally an option (unless you're using a piano sound, where it's [generally] preset to tempered).

Two digitial instruments, one playing at A=440 and one A=442 is cacaphonous and very apparent.

I'm willing to accept that the "neck adjustments" that Buffet has made in the S Series horns for American audiences makes the horn play in tune better -- "close enough for jazz" -- but, to make the horn "perfectly" in tune at A=440 or A=442 really does require two different designs (I think someone mentioned that the 442hz one has to be .2% smaller in all dimensions than the A=440 one). It's a bit of false advertising to say that any horn can be played at two different pitches perfectly in tune when the manufacturer expects you to adjust to the horn to make it in tune.

The only reason I'm harping on this is because I have gotten e-mails from people with high pitch, A=457 Conns/other vintage horns that have E or B saxophones and can play them perfectly in tune at that pitch. Well, perfectly if I [insert one or more of the following: use a "fake" fingering, jam my hand in the bell, push my mouthpiece all the way in, put moleskin/cork on half the toneholes, etc.].

Rollen is essentially correct. Transposing that a bit on the clarinet, I've got several joints (on the clarinet :) I can pull out a bit to affect intonation. As a matter of fact, clarinet players are very fond of various sized aftermarket barrel joints, different thicknesses of washers for each joint, etc. This can correct some intonation problems endemic to the horn/player/mouthpiece combination, but the manufacturer didn't make the horn out of tune in these cases, the PLAYER plays out of tune and has to use these gadgets to make the horn play in tune.

I'm working on a write-up about this. Will consult some acoustic engineering publications.

stevew
User ID: 8959213 Mar 20th 1:18 AM
Well this is also a bit potentially annoying for S1 owners who may one day wish to sell them, if there is a legend arising that they won't play in tune, especially as Saxpics' is about the only info available on the web.

The quality of information from Buffet is variable and I wonder how widely the horns would have been accepted had they basically not played in tune -e.g did they take a bit of length off the neck of a 440Hz horn for the French market, in which case, just like a clarinet with a short barrel, they would play BETTER in tune at 440?

I suppose what would be useful is to conduct some kind of scientific test with an oscillator on the end and see how well it really plays in tune, compared to say a Mk VI, modern selmers and Yanis and Yamahas. No horn is perfect yet and the S1 has been widely though of as being on eof the better ones.

I do really appreciate your work on this, Saxpics so don't get me wrong, I am not having a pop but just expressing my own concerns. I value the material you have assembled on this and all the other horns and the fact that you have such a scholarly approach. Best wishes all!

Paul T.
User ID: 0986624 Mar 20th 10:20 AM
Yesterday evening we discussed during the gig about this pitch question. One of our saxplayers made a good question :" Nobody is wondering the pitch of Selmer or Keilwerth or others and the same horns are used in Europe and in USA. In USA the pitch is 440 and in Europe most of the bands nowadays use the pitch 442. Have you heard the separate models of Selmer Serie III,one for 440Hz the other for 442Hz?" Good question really!!

Back 20 Messages

Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 3rd 8:46 PM I have a Buffet S1 tenor which I THOUGHT was A=440hz.Now,I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine must be A=442hz.It doesn´t have any letters (A or E) after the serialnumber(306650) so it must be high-pitch horn then.Another thing,it doesn´t have that metal bar under the neck curve (like other S1`s seem to have).Only thing I´ve noticed about this horn is that I have to push my mouthpiece (any of them) really deep,about 1,5 inches (3,8 centimeters).Doesn´t that mean that the pitch is actually lower? Is it possible to play this high-pitch horn with A=440hz instruments or is there going to be some tuning difficulties? I don´t need a horn that can´t play in tune with the rest of the band,thats for sure!!!
saxpics User ID: 9802413	Mar 8th 6:42 PM I'm suprised no one sent an e-mail my way, considering my fairly publicized debates with Boosey & Hawkes on these issues :) * Boosey themselves insist that S1 and horns with an "A" after the serial number are A=440hz; the "A" stands for "American". Horns with an "E" or NOTHING after the serial number are supposed to be A=442hz; the "E" stands for "European." * Boosey says that American horns had their necks tweaked somewhat, this goes with morgan's comments, above. * Boosey says that the current Buffet, the S3 (silver plate) and S3 Prestige (copper) is available in A=440hz, if you custom order it. * stevew is correct on the S1 sopranos. If you wanted the kewl S1 keywork on the soprano, you'd have to get an S1 Prestige soprano (copper) * mutha potamus is essentially right in that the whole of the horn has to be changed to change pitch, unlike closed-pipe instruments (e.g. a trumpet), where you can just stick in some tubing to change pitch. Of course, you've gotta consider tone hole placement and bore size. * stevew (I believe) had a link to a file that had one side A=440hz and the other A=442hz. It's annoying, but not all that bad. Problems would definitely arise if a piece you're playing is either in a microtuned scale or if you play a bunch of long tones -- or, as morgan mentions, you play with an exceptionally tuned piano ("tempered" scales on a piano refer to how, for instance, the low strings are tuned a bit flat because it "sounds" more in tune than if the strings were dead-on on the tuner) * Errata: all S2's are A=442hz. S1 baritones were mostly unchanged from their SDA bretheren (no odd keywork), but there was an S1 Prestige copper bari, which may have had the interesting keywork that the S1 alto had (it's not pictured in the catalog I recently got from an SOTW poster). There were no S2 baris. However, as Paul T mentions (and I can confirm), a 1970-ish catalog and a 1981 catalog have different model numbers for the S1 horns.
MBushaw User ID: 8374593	Mar 8th 9:02 PM Morgan- You state that the difference between 442 and 440 is 10 cents. I'd like to know how you came to that figure. Where I come from, 'cents' is shorthand for percent. 442 is 0.48 percent higher than 440.
stevew User ID: 1460434	Mar 9th 1:36 AM http://www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm I am not sure of the ownership of this, but it seems a scholarly collection and there are lots of pics of Buffets....Is this a mirror of the old saxpics stuff?
morgan User ID: 0784604	Mar 9th 1:39 AM I believe a 'cent' is 1/100 of a half step. To go up by half a step you would multiply the frequency by (approximately) the twelfth root of 2, which is about 1.059463094 That gives Bb as approximately 466Hz, or about 26Hz away. So 2 hz at 440Hz is VERY roughly 1/10 of the (26Hz) difference, or 10% or 10 cents. Or if "cents" are a logarithmic 1/100 then we have another story...hmmm... that would mean to move one cent you would multiply by the 1200th root of two, which is approx. 1.00057779, ... hmmm by this reckoning 442 is only eight cents sharp
MBushaw User ID: 9697893	Mar 9th 10:32 AM Morgan, OK, that makes sense (cents?). I needed to step away from my engineering side and into my music side to see that the real point of reference should be the note and not the absolute frequency. So when talking about music, cent is shorthand for the percent of difference between two half step tones. Thanks for the clarification. I still maintain that the difference on an alto sax is not an issue.
Tonto User ID: 1718124	Mar 9th 10:39 AM "Centavos" are less then cents.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 9th 10:58 AM Just to add some more confusion over this matter,on www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm site it says that S1s "..also may be the last Buffet produced in the standard LOW-PITCH,A=440Hz".Well,well...OK,I took the S1 tenor to a gig couple of nights ago,tried to listen very carefully if it was in tune.Firstly,I DIDN`T hear any major problems with the tuning BUT it is quite different horn from my JK or MKVI to keep in tune (both tenors,too).So,I guess I just have to learn to play this S1,so I can keep it in tune.Ofcourse,have to keep in mind that this was done in a gig situation,not the best situation to hear the small differences in tuning (and other finesses)
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 9th 8:38 PM I checked my S1 tenor with a tuner.OK,heres the result:no major differences between 440Hz or 442Hz.The upper register was bit sharp on both pitches but thats me,not the horn (happens on my other tenors,too).All I had to do was to pull the moutpiece out a bit (about 5mm) to play in tune when tuner was set on 440Hz.And push it in when tuner was set 442Hz.The horn wasn´t any better in tune when tuner was set on 442Hz than when it was set 440Hz.
morgan User ID: 0784604	Mar 9th 9:41 PM <<I strongly doubt even they know what pich their S1 horns were>> NOW we're getting somewhere! LOL!
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 9th 9:47 PM OK,Morgan,I was just confused a little,OK?
Stevew User ID: 9836983	Mar 10th 2:08 AM Subtone Sam, your findings were the same as mine on alto with a more succinct report. I find any new horn or mouthpiece for that matter takes a while to learn to play in tune. I do not have a problem playing this one in tune.
saxpics User ID: 3445384	Mar 10th 7:12 PM Grr. Message eaten by eesites. Anyhow, the http://www.cybersax.co.kr/Buffet.htm website is an illegal copy of my website made without my knowledge. I've sent an e-mail to the webmaster telling him to remove the pages. Fortunately, only my OLD Buffet page seems to have been copied. More in a bit! Pete
saxpics User ID: 0436494	Mar 11th 10:22 PM Well. That was fun. As mentioned above, I sent an e-mail to the webmaster of this Korean 'site and the page in question has been deleted and he forwarded me an apology saying that, "Someone on my staff copied it. He was later told this was illegal, so we didn't link the page" (just kinda forgot to delete it, hmmm?) Anyhow, I refer back to the original Buffet ads, this time a brand spankin' new Buffet clarinet catalog: An Elite model A clarinet (with the best description I've ever seen for advantages: "Gold-plated posts facilitate harmonic vibrations") is listed as "440/442" for pitch, but has TWO barrels, a 63 and 65mm. Turn the page and there's an R13 A clarinet pitched at 440 with a 65mm barrel. Put this together with Boosey's comments about "modifying the neck [on the S1/S3] for the American market", you've got your two pitches of saxophone. (I picked the A clarinet as my example, because they have the most consistent measurements thoughout the catalog, and we're talking about A=? ... OK, bad joke.) However, just modifying the neck shouldn't change the intonation of the entire horn to A=442hz, I'd think. I'd think that you'd have a saxophone that plays more consistently (emphasize CONSISTENTLY) in tune at one pitch or the other, but I also think that most players could probably adjust to this miniscule difference in pitch unconsciously (please see the Buffet-Powell thread in here). Now, in the 1980-ish wall poster for Buffet, look down to where it says "Bassoons". It says "Pitch 440-444". I don't know enough about Bassoons to easily explain that away.
David K User ID: 1718124	Mar 19th 10:28 AM A-440Hz saxophone, playing a duet with A-442Hz saxophone would make a pleasing combination!! This would be an accepted musical phenomena. Taken from the book, The Art of Playing Hohner Diatonic Accordions: "With the second stop raised another set of reeds operate that are tuned slightly at variance; not enough to be discordant but sufficient to provide a pleasing tremolo effect." !!!!!
Rollen User ID: 0658904	Mar 19th 2:57 PM lengthening/shortening the neck would, in my estimation, flatten/sharpen just the same as pulling out/pushing in the mouthpiece. It affects the overall volume of the sax 'cone'. More volume would make it flatter, less makes it sharper. Have to check "The saxophone is my voice" book.
stevew User ID: 8959213	Mar 19th 3:23 PM Having acquired a S1 tenor as well, I am pleased to report that also plays well in tune all over at A=440Hz. Wouldn't the chamber size in the mouthpiece have an appreciable (or at least 2 Hz worth) effect on the tuning as well? I noticed mine has better intonation with a 50's Link copy than with a Berg Larsen, for example.
saxpics User ID: 2045054	Mar 19th 10:36 PM This is a fun -- and annoying -- thread :) I certianly accept that the minor variances in pitch from A=440 to A=442 are not that great and do create a bit of a tremolo effect (or even a wavy Guy Lombardo vibrato). In the real world of acoustic instruments, where you're expected never to be exactly in tune, you're constantly adjusting and 2 cents sharp/flat is "close enough for jazz" this is 100% absotively true. In the somewhat artificial world of digitial instruments, this isn't true at all. Admittedly, "stretch" or tempered tuning is availible on many synthesizers/samplers, this is generally an option (unless you're using a piano sound, where it's [generally] preset to tempered). Two digitial instruments, one playing at A=440 and one A=442 is cacaphonous and very apparent. I'm willing to accept that the "neck adjustments" that Buffet has made in the S Series horns for American audiences makes the horn play in tune better -- "close enough for jazz" -- but, to make the horn "perfectly" in tune at A=440 or A=442 really does require two different designs (I think someone mentioned that the 442hz one has to be .2% smaller in all dimensions than the A=440 one). It's a bit of false advertising to say that any horn can be played at two different pitches perfectly in tune when the manufacturer expects you to adjust to the horn to make it in tune. The only reason I'm harping on this is because I have gotten e-mails from people with high pitch, A=457 Conns/other vintage horns that have E or B saxophones and can play them perfectly in tune at that pitch. Well, perfectly if I [insert one or more of the following: use a "fake" fingering, jam my hand in the bell, push my mouthpiece all the way in, put moleskin/cork on half the toneholes, etc.]. Rollen is essentially correct. Transposing that a bit on the clarinet, I've got several joints (on the clarinet :) I can pull out a bit to affect intonation. As a matter of fact, clarinet players are very fond of various sized aftermarket barrel joints, different thicknesses of washers for each joint, etc. This can correct some intonation problems endemic to the horn/player/mouthpiece combination, but the manufacturer didn't make the horn out of tune in these cases, the PLAYER plays out of tune and has to use these gadgets to make the horn play in tune. I'm working on a write-up about this. Will consult some acoustic engineering publications.
stevew User ID: 8959213	Mar 20th 1:18 AM Well this is also a bit potentially annoying for S1 owners who may one day wish to sell them, if there is a legend arising that they won't play in tune, especially as Saxpics' is about the only info available on the web. The quality of information from Buffet is variable and I wonder how widely the horns would have been accepted had they basically not played in tune -e.g did they take a bit of length off the neck of a 440Hz horn for the French market, in which case, just like a clarinet with a short barrel, they would play BETTER in tune at 440? I suppose what would be useful is to conduct some kind of scientific test with an oscillator on the end and see how well it really plays in tune, compared to say a Mk VI, modern selmers and Yanis and Yamahas. No horn is perfect yet and the S1 has been widely though of as being on eof the better ones. I do really appreciate your work on this, Saxpics so don't get me wrong, I am not having a pop but just expressing my own concerns. I value the material you have assembled on this and all the other horns and the fact that you have such a scholarly approach. Best wishes all!
Paul T. User ID: 0986624	Mar 20th 10:20 AM Yesterday evening we discussed during the gig about this pitch question. One of our saxplayers made a good question :" Nobody is wondering the pitch of Selmer or Keilwerth or others and the same horns are used in Europe and in USA. In USA the pitch is 440 and in Europe most of the bands nowadays use the pitch 442. Have you heard the separate models of Selmer Serie III,one for 440Hz the other for 442Hz?" Good question really!!