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Sax on the Web Archive / Buffet Archive / Buffet S1 pitch???

Next 20 Messages

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 3rd 8:46 PM
I have a Buffet S1 tenor which I THOUGHT was A=440hz.Now,I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine must be A=442hz.It doesn´t have any letters (A or E) after the serialnumber(306650) so it must be high-pitch horn then.Another thing,it doesn´t have that metal bar under the neck curve (like other S1`s seem to have).Only thing I´ve noticed about this horn is that I have to push my mouthpiece (any of them) really deep,about 1,5 inches (3,8 centimeters).Doesn´t that mean that the pitch is actually lower? Is it possible to play this high-pitch horn with A=440hz instruments or is there going to be some tuning difficulties? I don´t need a horn that can´t play in tune with the rest of the band,thats for sure!!!

Merlin
User ID: 8931733 Mar 3rd 9:00 PM
Why don't you get a digital tuner, and find out for sure?

David K
User ID: 1718124 Mar 3rd 9:17 PM
Yes, If it were a high pitch the mouthpiece should need to be pulled out. low pitch has the letter "L" or "Low Tone", high pitch has the letters "HP".

What do the letters A or E mean ??
The only serial chart for Buffet S1 that I found shows: '52 serial 2925 to '85 serial35733

you say:"I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine".----------- I visited that web site too and do not see how you matched your sax to a High Pitch. Your serial is 306650??

Merlin
User ID: 8931733 Mar 3rd 9:25 PM
442 is not the same as "HP" - the high pitch designation on old saxes is about 457-460 - approximately a half step higher than A440.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 3rd 9:46 PM
No,sorry it is 30650,my mistake,its S1,made in 1981.It says in Saxpics.com that if there is no letter (or letter "E") after serial,then its A=442Hz."A" is for American (440Hz),"E" is for European (442Hz).I´m a bit confused here.How exactly should I check it with the tuner,I mean,the pitch varies depending how far I push/pull my mpc.My main concern here is that I´d hate to think I have a horn I can´t play in tune with A=440Hz instruments (I haven´t played this S1 on gigs yet).Is that possible? Hope not...

Paul T.
User ID: 0986624 Mar 3rd 11:10 PM
Some of them are labeled with the letter "E" but not everyone. I guess you have bought it in Europe. There are some countries, where only horns with the pitch 442Hz has been sould. I have one with the pitch 442 Hz. I have never had problems in the gigs and nobody has claimed.

David K
User ID: 1718124 Mar 3rd 11:19 PM
Why in the world would they even make a sax only 2 Hz different?!?!?

Paul T.
User ID: 0986624 Mar 4th 3:24 AM
Sam,
I studied Buffets old brochure from seventies and there is for instance only one S-1 alto model nr. 2521. They write:
" Pitched to tune from A-440 to A-442, without undue distortion of the instrument's scale." I understand, that it is possible with same horn. In the newer brochures they have different numbers for both pitch. Anyway the difference is only 0,4%! It must be possible to eliminate with the mouthpiece movement. Maybe two different pitching numbers are more or less way to sell more.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 4th 4:55 AM
Thanks for your answers! I e-mailed Buffet and they said my horn IS A=442Hz.This is because it has no letter after serial (same thing with letter "E").Letter "A" after the serial are the only ones with A=440Hz.Well,maybe it doesn´t matter.I just had a bad experience with Gemeinhart flute years ago,it was tuned A=440Hz and I had to play it A=442Hz (in European classical pitch).That was impossible.Don´t want similar thing happen here.

stevew
User ID: 8938823 Mar 4th 5:39 AM
OK, I tried the tuner on my silver S1 Anniversary alto no 2649*. First thing, it needs warming up, second my existing reed would not play in tune. I was a bit alarmed, as previous play testing with a tuner had shown the intonation to be very good. Anyway, Meyer NY 6M mpc, Rovner lig, new Rico JS 3S reed. Warmed it up. The intonation was consistent all over the lower register using A=440 as a reference point. It was consistently a bit sharp in the upper register, my technique I feel as these notes are harmonics of the lower. Anyhow, I pulled the mouthpiece out a bit and found it was good across the whole range, my ear and mouth had been compensating for incorrect mpc placement, I have just re-corked the neck so lost my old reference mark. I did try tuning it at A=440Hz and it was ceratainly no more happy there than at 440. Is it a 440 or 442 horn? I don't know and don't intend to lose any sleep over it as I had always thought the intonation good on this sax - one of the things S1s are known for. If the majority of them were 442 and it mattered, surely it would have been widely noticed as a practical issue?

David K
User ID: 1718124 Mar 4th 12:06 PM
Subtone, even though you have determined your sax to be a 442 Hz, you play with the mouthpiece pushed in? This means, that in reality the sax plays more like a 440 than a 442. If you use a smaller chamber mpc., you will find that the mpc. will be where it should be.

From what has been said in the previous postings: is that the sax was sold as a 442, only because of the serial number designation! Also what was said here, is that there is no difference between the 440 Hz sax and the 442 Hz sax (they are both the same sax, only different numbers to please the intended buyer)!!

Now I have a Question: If one was to try to make a difference in two instruments, so as one would play a 440 and the other play a 442, how would one go about this? Certainly the hole spacing would not be changed. I would think that the design difference, would be in the NECK.

anon
User ID: 2031664 Mar 4th 12:12 PM
friend of mine is a piano tuner, he says that 442 is QUITE a bit sharper than 440, even though it wouldn't appear to be. Something like 10 cents or so(don't remember exact number).
Net is, if you play with electronic stuff, or a tuned piano, or a 440 ensemble(most ensembles play sharp), you could have problems.

MBushaw
User ID: 9029153 Mar 4th 12:30 PM
anon, a sax is not a piano. With a piano you have to worry about even scale vs tempered scale, so for a piano this is a big deal. 440Hz is in the alto sax range. 442Hz is 0.45% (I like to say less than one half of one percent) different. If an alto sax is 40 inches in length, the difference would be need to be around 2 tenths of an inch (sorry, I'm a Yank and can't speak metric). Buffet says that the difference is mostly in the neck, but there are some body changes too.
I don't know about you, but if I can get a section to tune with only a 2 beat-per-second pulse, I feel pretty good. If anyone wants to get rid of their 442Hz Buffets, my email is MBushaw@aol.com!!

stevew
User ID: 9572103 Mar 4th 1:16 PM
I also wonder, considering their small output, whether Buffet really had 2 sets of tooling? I think not, and that the differences between horns would have been very minimal. Oh well. Mine plays OK at 440 Hz, operator error accepted.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 4th 5:31 PM
Thanks again! I have to say its really nice to be able to ask this kind of question and get some answers from experts like you.I mean it.This thing troubled me a lot yesterday and today.I even called a saxophonist who works at a music store (selling woodwinds) and he told me that,because sax is not a piano or similar instrument,it doesn´t make a big difference if sax is tuned 440Hz or 442Hz.But he also said that it does make a difference in flutes,even clarinets (why?).Well,I just got worried I´ve bought an instrument that was meant only for European classical music,in high pitch or something.Nothing wrong with classical but I don´t play it.I´m not an expert with these things,don´t know much about horns and how they are built,I´m just beginning to explore these things.I played on only one tenor for over 10 years,got few more (The S1 and MKVI) late last year.Well,I will check the S1 tuning with tuner,too.I also find it strange that my mpc has to be pulled in more than on my other tenors.Don´t know why this is,if the S1 is 442Hz.Yes,even high baffle mpcs are more pulled in than in other tenors I have.Well,thanks guys,I don´t worry about this no more!

morgan
User ID: 0784604 Mar 4th 9:24 PM
442 is ten cents sharp. That's a lot. The argument about it being .45% is misdirected.

It is probably pretty easy to play the horn at 440 with mouthpiece positioning and practicing so you acclimatize to its intonation preferences. But if you were to hang around playing at 442 while everybody else was at 440 you'd sound like crap.

Quite reasonable to suppose the major difference is in the neck. Since they have some claim of balancing the whole horn, you can imagine they threw in another fraction of a centimeter somewhere where it does NOT entail a whole re-tooling. Maybe they shortened the body where it joins the bow (and also shortened the bell a symmetric amount), and maybe also a little between the LH and RH stacks. This could be accommodated by moving a couple of posts a short distance rather than changing any hardware.

David K
User ID: 1718124 Mar 4th 9:56 PM
Stevew and Mbushaw are happy and so is Sam now.

We do not need a morgan stirring the pot.

morgan
User ID: 0784604 Mar 5th 12:35 AM
I was just correcting the math.

stevew
User ID: 9572103 Mar 5th 1:11 AM
I welcome the discussion myself and found all thw comments helpful. S1s do have a great reputation which they would not have if they were incapable of playing in tune outside of a few European countries.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Mar 6th 7:02 PM
SteveW,just curious:does your S1 alto have a letter (A or E) after the serial or no letter at all? Or any letter in the neck? According to Buffet,some horns with "A" after the serial were produced for special order only (in the USA) and THESE horns are supposed to be A=440Hz.

Next 20 Messages

Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 3rd 8:46 PM I have a Buffet S1 tenor which I THOUGHT was A=440hz.Now,I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine must be A=442hz.It doesn´t have any letters (A or E) after the serialnumber(306650) so it must be high-pitch horn then.Another thing,it doesn´t have that metal bar under the neck curve (like other S1`s seem to have).Only thing I´ve noticed about this horn is that I have to push my mouthpiece (any of them) really deep,about 1,5 inches (3,8 centimeters).Doesn´t that mean that the pitch is actually lower? Is it possible to play this high-pitch horn with A=440hz instruments or is there going to be some tuning difficulties? I don´t need a horn that can´t play in tune with the rest of the band,thats for sure!!!
Merlin User ID: 8931733	Mar 3rd 9:00 PM Why don't you get a digital tuner, and find out for sure?
David K User ID: 1718124	Mar 3rd 9:17 PM Yes, If it were a high pitch the mouthpiece should need to be pulled out. low pitch has the letter "L" or "Low Tone", high pitch has the letters "HP". What do the letters A or E mean ?? The only serial chart for Buffet S1 that I found shows: '52 serial 2925 to '85 serial35733 you say:"I visited the www.saxpics.com/buffet and got the info that mine".----------- I visited that web site too and do not see how you matched your sax to a High Pitch. Your serial is 306650??
Merlin User ID: 8931733	Mar 3rd 9:25 PM 442 is not the same as "HP" - the high pitch designation on old saxes is about 457-460 - approximately a half step higher than A440.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 3rd 9:46 PM No,sorry it is 30650,my mistake,its S1,made in 1981.It says in Saxpics.com that if there is no letter (or letter "E") after serial,then its A=442Hz."A" is for American (440Hz),"E" is for European (442Hz).I´m a bit confused here.How exactly should I check it with the tuner,I mean,the pitch varies depending how far I push/pull my mpc.My main concern here is that I´d hate to think I have a horn I can´t play in tune with A=440Hz instruments (I haven´t played this S1 on gigs yet).Is that possible? Hope not...
Paul T. User ID: 0986624	Mar 3rd 11:10 PM Some of them are labeled with the letter "E" but not everyone. I guess you have bought it in Europe. There are some countries, where only horns with the pitch 442Hz has been sould. I have one with the pitch 442 Hz. I have never had problems in the gigs and nobody has claimed.
David K User ID: 1718124	Mar 3rd 11:19 PM Why in the world would they even make a sax only 2 Hz different?!?!?
Paul T. User ID: 0986624	Mar 4th 3:24 AM Sam, I studied Buffets old brochure from seventies and there is for instance only one S-1 alto model nr. 2521. They write: " Pitched to tune from A-440 to A-442, without undue distortion of the instrument's scale." I understand, that it is possible with same horn. In the newer brochures they have different numbers for both pitch. Anyway the difference is only 0,4%! It must be possible to eliminate with the mouthpiece movement. Maybe two different pitching numbers are more or less way to sell more.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 4th 4:55 AM Thanks for your answers! I e-mailed Buffet and they said my horn IS A=442Hz.This is because it has no letter after serial (same thing with letter "E").Letter "A" after the serial are the only ones with A=440Hz.Well,maybe it doesn´t matter.I just had a bad experience with Gemeinhart flute years ago,it was tuned A=440Hz and I had to play it A=442Hz (in European classical pitch).That was impossible.Don´t want similar thing happen here.
stevew User ID: 8938823	Mar 4th 5:39 AM OK, I tried the tuner on my silver S1 Anniversary alto no 2649*. First thing, it needs warming up, second my existing reed would not play in tune. I was a bit alarmed, as previous play testing with a tuner had shown the intonation to be very good. Anyway, Meyer NY 6M mpc, Rovner lig, new Rico JS 3S reed. Warmed it up. The intonation was consistent all over the lower register using A=440 as a reference point. It was consistently a bit sharp in the upper register, my technique I feel as these notes are harmonics of the lower. Anyhow, I pulled the mouthpiece out a bit and found it was good across the whole range, my ear and mouth had been compensating for incorrect mpc placement, I have just re-corked the neck so lost my old reference mark. I did try tuning it at A=440Hz and it was ceratainly no more happy there than at 440. Is it a 440 or 442 horn? I don't know and don't intend to lose any sleep over it as I had always thought the intonation good on this sax - one of the things S1s are known for. If the majority of them were 442 and it mattered, surely it would have been widely noticed as a practical issue?
David K User ID: 1718124	Mar 4th 12:06 PM Subtone, even though you have determined your sax to be a 442 Hz, you play with the mouthpiece pushed in? This means, that in reality the sax plays more like a 440 than a 442. If you use a smaller chamber mpc., you will find that the mpc. will be where it should be. From what has been said in the previous postings: is that the sax was sold as a 442, only because of the serial number designation! Also what was said here, is that there is no difference between the 440 Hz sax and the 442 Hz sax (they are both the same sax, only different numbers to please the intended buyer)!! Now I have a Question: If one was to try to make a difference in two instruments, so as one would play a 440 and the other play a 442, how would one go about this? Certainly the hole spacing would not be changed. I would think that the design difference, would be in the NECK.
anon User ID: 2031664	Mar 4th 12:12 PM friend of mine is a piano tuner, he says that 442 is QUITE a bit sharper than 440, even though it wouldn't appear to be. Something like 10 cents or so(don't remember exact number). Net is, if you play with electronic stuff, or a tuned piano, or a 440 ensemble(most ensembles play sharp), you could have problems.
MBushaw User ID: 9029153	Mar 4th 12:30 PM anon, a sax is not a piano. With a piano you have to worry about even scale vs tempered scale, so for a piano this is a big deal. 440Hz is in the alto sax range. 442Hz is 0.45% (I like to say less than one half of one percent) different. If an alto sax is 40 inches in length, the difference would be need to be around 2 tenths of an inch (sorry, I'm a Yank and can't speak metric). Buffet says that the difference is mostly in the neck, but there are some body changes too. I don't know about you, but if I can get a section to tune with only a 2 beat-per-second pulse, I feel pretty good. If anyone wants to get rid of their 442Hz Buffets, my email is MBushaw@aol.com!!
stevew User ID: 9572103	Mar 4th 1:16 PM I also wonder, considering their small output, whether Buffet really had 2 sets of tooling? I think not, and that the differences between horns would have been very minimal. Oh well. Mine plays OK at 440 Hz, operator error accepted.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 4th 5:31 PM Thanks again! I have to say its really nice to be able to ask this kind of question and get some answers from experts like you.I mean it.This thing troubled me a lot yesterday and today.I even called a saxophonist who works at a music store (selling woodwinds) and he told me that,because sax is not a piano or similar instrument,it doesn´t make a big difference if sax is tuned 440Hz or 442Hz.But he also said that it does make a difference in flutes,even clarinets (why?).Well,I just got worried I´ve bought an instrument that was meant only for European classical music,in high pitch or something.Nothing wrong with classical but I don´t play it.I´m not an expert with these things,don´t know much about horns and how they are built,I´m just beginning to explore these things.I played on only one tenor for over 10 years,got few more (The S1 and MKVI) late last year.Well,I will check the S1 tuning with tuner,too.I also find it strange that my mpc has to be pulled in more than on my other tenors.Don´t know why this is,if the S1 is 442Hz.Yes,even high baffle mpcs are more pulled in than in other tenors I have.Well,thanks guys,I don´t worry about this no more!
morgan User ID: 0784604	Mar 4th 9:24 PM 442 is ten cents sharp. That's a lot. The argument about it being .45% is misdirected. It is probably pretty easy to play the horn at 440 with mouthpiece positioning and practicing so you acclimatize to its intonation preferences. But if you were to hang around playing at 442 while everybody else was at 440 you'd sound like crap. Quite reasonable to suppose the major difference is in the neck. Since they have some claim of balancing the whole horn, you can imagine they threw in another fraction of a centimeter somewhere where it does NOT entail a whole re-tooling. Maybe they shortened the body where it joins the bow (and also shortened the bell a symmetric amount), and maybe also a little between the LH and RH stacks. This could be accommodated by moving a couple of posts a short distance rather than changing any hardware.
David K User ID: 1718124	Mar 4th 9:56 PM Stevew and Mbushaw are happy and so is Sam now. We do not need a morgan stirring the pot.
morgan User ID: 0784604	Mar 5th 12:35 AM I was just correcting the math.
stevew User ID: 9572103	Mar 5th 1:11 AM I welcome the discussion myself and found all thw comments helpful. S1s do have a great reputation which they would not have if they were incapable of playing in tune outside of a few European countries.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Mar 6th 7:02 PM SteveW,just curious:does your S1 alto have a letter (A or E) after the serial or no letter at all? Or any letter in the neck? According to Buffet,some horns with "A" after the serial were produced for special order only (in the USA) and THESE horns are supposed to be A=440Hz.