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Sax on the Web Archive / Buffet Archive / Buffet Powell

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docsado
User ID: 1056474 Jan 10th 9:10 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1500891008

Was this one ever in production? Dig the neck!

saxpics
User ID: 2045054 Feb 1st 12:02 PM
Boosey published my question! Here's the official answer:

After some research we can say the following: It is difficult to tell the start and/or end of production dates for the S1, S2, and S3 because the same numbering system was used for all models. However we can approximately say the following: S1 has been manufactured from 1973 to 1988 S2 from 1983 to 1986 S3 from 1995 to today except for 2000 Prestige from 1989 to today. S1 and S2 were available in lacquer on a standard basis. On special request it was possible to get them with keys and body in silver plate. Only the Prestige has been and still is available in copper. All Buffet saxophones were designed to 440/442 Hz. The S2 was developed from the professional model S1, however it has always been considered as an intermediate model.

Please note the comment about hertz rates. I'd assume this means you can get the horns in eiter pitch.

DB
User ID: 7273713 Feb 1st 5:13 PM
FYI, another Buffet Powell is on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1508872753

tenor, serial number 32604

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 1st 6:36 PM
Saxpics- Since the horns themselves are not marked for pitch, I would take their comment to mean that they don't consider the difference between the two enough to warrent a change.

Prince
User ID: 0136334 Feb 2nd 9:54 PM
Yeah, Mark! you are darn right! As I always say that any modern saxophone (except, the old (very) hi pitch) can be tuned in both 440 or 442.

saxpics
User ID: 2999764 Feb 4th 9:10 PM
I believe we're essentially dealing with a bit of a language barrier with Buffet (i.e. I don't speak French very well and they probably don't write English very well).

We're talking acoustics: a high pitch horn is built all-around smaller than a low-pitch one. With a piano, you can change the pitch of each note by stretching or loosening a (couple) of strings. If you wanna do this for a woodwind, you need a different sized horn. For a brasswind, you'd need different length tubing.

It is POSSIBLE that a decent player can "bend down" an A=442 horn by ear (as some do with even higher or lower pitched horns), but if you aren't trying, a tuner will show the difference.

Lets put it this way: as a conductor, would you want your band to have 1/2 A=442hz horns and the other A=440?

IMHO, Buffet may not care, but not because the S3 is a 442hz horn, but because they'd rather you buy a new Keilwerth, if you're in the US.

Mark, Prince, while the pitch isn't written on the horn, it's written on the website.

Anyhow, the wording of Buffet's answer, above is a bit challenging but, it appears:

* The S1 was available in lacquer or silver from 1973 to 1988
* The S2 was available in lacquer or silver plate from 1983 to 1986
* The S3 was available from 1995 to present (except for 2000)
* The S3 Prestige was available from 1989 to present in copper or silver plate (see the Boosey website)

Dunno about the roller keys.

I've sent Boosey another e-mail.

Ta!

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 5th 10:44 AM
Saxpics, in the groups that I play in (not professional anymore, but still mostly good players) if we can tune to around 2 beats per second or so, we feel pretty good about it. Any player can easily adjust for a one half of one percent difference. For small group players it is assumed that you are able to adjust your pitch from equal temprement as much a 16 percent (playing the third in a chord). The tuners we see (except for the Peterson strobe) won't even register that small of a deviation (most are at one percent).

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 5th 11:31 AM
I was not clear; Most tuners will not register a one half of one percent difference.

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 5th 4:13 PM
Not to belabor the point, but there was a comment about size. I just eyeballed my alto, an old Selmer that I assume to be 440Hz. It's about 40 inches including neck and bell. If it was a 442Hz horn, it would be .2 inches shorter assuming the same bore taper. 2 tenths of an inch!

saxpics
User ID: 0436494 Feb 5th 4:39 PM
The horn itself wouldn't be .2 tenths of an inch -- EACH measurement on the horn would be would be: the distance between tone holes and the size of the tone holes. If the entire horn was just .2 tenths of an inch shorter, you'd essentially have only one note out of tune, if you take the difference from the bottom of the horn (i.e., the low Bb would be out of tune). Mark, your statement is essentially saying that, say, a Mark VI low A alto is tuned to a different frequency than a Mark VI low Bb alto because they're two different sizes. They're obviously not, even though the low A horn may have some other problems :)

Of course, this is also maintaining the size of the bore. (It'd be easier to shrink the entire bore and maintain everything else, IMHO, to get to A=442, but while this might be mechanically easier, I know that it's more difficult in practice.)

As previously stated, this is not necessarily that much of a difference -- and the average person that listens to a soloist wouldn't note the difference. Playing with another instrumentalist, if neither is compensating, you would hear a difference.

... and many digital tuners can recognize that little of a difference (high end Korg, for instance). You can hear the difference if you have a Yamaha DX7 or Roland synth: tune it to A=442. Go to your local music shop and buy a tuning fork that's tuned to A=440. Play an A on the synth and then tap the tuning fork. Listen. There is a noticeable difference.

Let's just say there is a difference, but that differece is not necessarily that noticible in a group, unless you have perfect (not relative) pitch. It's more noticible when you have a duet.

I'd actually like someone to try the test I suggest, above, and e-mail it to me as an MP3. Not a recording: the pitch is distorted based on the speed of the motor in the casette player. CD's are digital. Paul Cohen did essentially this with a LP Conn vs. a HP Conn and the results were not as pleasant (HP Conn's were up to A=460hz).

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 5th 7:05 PM
The difference is one half of one percent. 40 - (40 * .005) = 39.8 inches. Each tone hole would be one half of one percent smaller, the distance between toneholes would be one half of one percent closer. The total horn would be .2 inches shorter. The low A example is bad because the tonehole size and placement are the same as a Bb horn (not true, as most everything from D on down has to be adjusted for the extra length, but that's getting real picky).
Yes, the difference you would hear is exactly two 'beat' tones per second (a wa-wa sound). Easy to do on a guitar. I'll make a .wav and put it out for people to hear.
The old High Pitch horns are not playable with low pitch.

MBushaw
User ID: 9990163 Feb 6th 2:18 PM
http://www.elsegundoccb.org/440442.wav
I've put a short 1 minute .wav file at this location. One channel has 440Hz the other has 442Hz. These are pure sine waves, so it is very easy to hear the 'beat' tone. Use your balance control to pan between the two, and see if you can tell which is which. CAUTION- as pure sine waves, they contain a lot of energy and may damage speakers if played at high volume for very long. It should be safe with the 1 minute sample, but be careful.

saxpics
User ID: 1202654 Feb 6th 5:30 PM
I'm busily downloading the file. 10mb! Mark, you're killin' me!

Revenge of Boosey: they responded to the e-mail I sent regarding the S1, etc., above:

"The difference between S3 and S3 Prestige is only the material, the tube is the same. The S3 Prestige has been manufactured since 1989 and it is the one mentioned on the website. Before the S3 Prestige there was the S1 Prestige manufactured from 1981 to 1988 (sorry I did not mentioned that one on the Boosey forum)

"If there is the letter 'A' after the serial number that means American model i.e. A=440 if there is the letter 'E' for Europe that means A=442. If nothing is mentioned it is at A=442.

"According to the demand the neck and
some other small things were changed to be the American model. As far as I am told S2 model was not sold in America therefore there should not be the case for the S2."

Yes, I asked for a clarification of this clarification:

* Does this mean that the S3 Prestige is the copper horn and the S3 is the silver model?
* Was the S1 Prestige a copper model? How was it different from the S1?

It looks like the folks that say their S2's are A=440 are wrong or Boosey is wrong ...

Just so you know, I sent an e-mail to the Boosey forum administrator, and got this e-mail back from someone in Germany at W. Schreiber & Söhne -- and the e-mail starts with, "I have pleasure to forward the reply of my colleagues at Buffet Crampon to you."

I mentioned a language barrier before: it goes from English to French to German to English ...

manofsteel
User ID: 9084913 Feb 6th 7:09 PM
Okay Saxpics and MBushaw,

Interesting discussion, but pretty off topic now.

Does anyone know how the Buffet-Powell horn sounds? The one FA is really cheap and I still have a Christmas bonus that is burning a hole in my pocket!

MBushaw
User ID: 0701364 Feb 6th 9:01 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't even look at the file size!!
Yikes!!!! Do you have to download it all, or does it start playing immediatly?
So they DO indicate tuning on the horn, well then, that's a different, that is to say,,,, um,,, Nevermind.
Hold it. Since when is there an S3 available in America??
Manofsteel- Buffet-Powell??? what's that???

Prince
User ID: 0136334 Feb 7th 6:20 AM
Saxpics, The B&H's webmaster is my friend. She is a specialist in web design not saxophone or clarinet. So, I have no surprise that she says that to you. However, she is a very nice lady.

saxpics
User ID: 9175333 Feb 7th 5:45 PM
Not too much of a problem, Mark. I think it'll convert nicely into an MP3.

I've downloaded the whole 11mb and my impression:

- The difference in intonation isn't significant (as afore thought), but I think over the long haul it could be a bit annoying, especially if you're playing 1/4 steps or long tones.

Anyhow, the final answer from Gaby at Boosey.com:

* Was the S1 Prestige a copper-plated horn? yes it was
* Is the S3 Prestige available as an A=440 hz horn? yes it could but it has to be specified while ordering

Thank you to all who participated! If you have S1, S2 or S3 horns, please deluge me with pics at saxpics@hotmail.com

saxpics
User ID: 9175333 Feb 7th 5:50 PM
manofsteel, I don't know how well the Buffet-Powell horns play. I have been told by SAXTEK, my frequent contributor and NAPBIRT tech, that the octave mechanism and vents are extremely good.

I can also truly say that I've never played a bad Buffet, and the B-P horns look extremely well made (and Powell doesn't make cheap flutes). How much is the price currently? The last pics I saw were of a horn missing 90% of it's lacquer ...

Mack
User ID: 9858163 Feb 12th 8:34 AM
Saxpics,

Does that mean that the S-1 Prestige is only copper-plated and not a solid copper horn?

saxpics
User ID: 3445384 Mar 10th 6:45 PM
Resurrecting this topic for a limited-time-only :)

I've been researching Conn patents and I actually came across the Buffet-Powell patent letter and drawings. It's patent number 2051176 (US). You can access it by going to www.uspto.gov (or similar) and typing in the patent number.

A few weeks ago, I had some small patent photos forwarded to me, and I saw the B-P pictured. Unfortunately, the pics were too small to make out any detail, but the patent drawings I now have are 8.5 x 11 and they have great detail.

Anyhow, these horns were not made by Verne Q. Powell, as I had originally thought, but by Edward Powell (who, according to http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/torture2.html and a couple other 'sites, is the son of Verne Q. and was a flute teacher). Dunno how Buffet and Powell were connected, though. You rarely see the patent-holder's name on a saxophone, so I still think that the Powell company(www.powellflutes.com) had some association with Buffet.

The patent date is August 18, 1936. One can assume that production started around that time.

Finally, E.V. Powell has several patent drawings for ANOTHER saxophone, which I have yet to see manufactured examples of.

========

Oh, Mack -- it's copper, not copper-plated.

Y'all take care out there.
Pete

Back 20 Messages

docsado User ID: 1056474	Jan 10th 9:10 PM http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1500891008 Was this one ever in production? Dig the neck!
saxpics User ID: 2045054	Feb 1st 12:02 PM Boosey published my question! Here's the official answer: After some research we can say the following: It is difficult to tell the start and/or end of production dates for the S1, S2, and S3 because the same numbering system was used for all models. However we can approximately say the following: S1 has been manufactured from 1973 to 1988 S2 from 1983 to 1986 S3 from 1995 to today except for 2000 Prestige from 1989 to today. S1 and S2 were available in lacquer on a standard basis. On special request it was possible to get them with keys and body in silver plate. Only the Prestige has been and still is available in copper. All Buffet saxophones were designed to 440/442 Hz. The S2 was developed from the professional model S1, however it has always been considered as an intermediate model. Please note the comment about hertz rates. I'd assume this means you can get the horns in eiter pitch.
DB User ID: 7273713	Feb 1st 5:13 PM FYI, another Buffet Powell is on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1508872753 tenor, serial number 32604
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 1st 6:36 PM Saxpics- Since the horns themselves are not marked for pitch, I would take their comment to mean that they don't consider the difference between the two enough to warrent a change.
Prince User ID: 0136334	Feb 2nd 9:54 PM Yeah, Mark! you are darn right! As I always say that any modern saxophone (except, the old (very) hi pitch) can be tuned in both 440 or 442.
saxpics User ID: 2999764	Feb 4th 9:10 PM I believe we're essentially dealing with a bit of a language barrier with Buffet (i.e. I don't speak French very well and they probably don't write English very well). We're talking acoustics: a high pitch horn is built all-around smaller than a low-pitch one. With a piano, you can change the pitch of each note by stretching or loosening a (couple) of strings. If you wanna do this for a woodwind, you need a different sized horn. For a brasswind, you'd need different length tubing. It is POSSIBLE that a decent player can "bend down" an A=442 horn by ear (as some do with even higher or lower pitched horns), but if you aren't trying, a tuner will show the difference. Lets put it this way: as a conductor, would you want your band to have 1/2 A=442hz horns and the other A=440? IMHO, Buffet may not care, but not because the S3 is a 442hz horn, but because they'd rather you buy a new Keilwerth, if you're in the US. Mark, Prince, while the pitch isn't written on the horn, it's written on the website. Anyhow, the wording of Buffet's answer, above is a bit challenging but, it appears: * The S1 was available in lacquer or silver from 1973 to 1988 * The S2 was available in lacquer or silver plate from 1983 to 1986 * The S3 was available from 1995 to present (except for 2000) * The S3 Prestige was available from 1989 to present in copper or silver plate (see the Boosey website) Dunno about the roller keys. I've sent Boosey another e-mail. Ta!
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 5th 10:44 AM Saxpics, in the groups that I play in (not professional anymore, but still mostly good players) if we can tune to around 2 beats per second or so, we feel pretty good about it. Any player can easily adjust for a one half of one percent difference. For small group players it is assumed that you are able to adjust your pitch from equal temprement as much a 16 percent (playing the third in a chord). The tuners we see (except for the Peterson strobe) won't even register that small of a deviation (most are at one percent).
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 5th 11:31 AM I was not clear; Most tuners will not register a one half of one percent difference.
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 5th 4:13 PM Not to belabor the point, but there was a comment about size. I just eyeballed my alto, an old Selmer that I assume to be 440Hz. It's about 40 inches including neck and bell. If it was a 442Hz horn, it would be .2 inches shorter assuming the same bore taper. 2 tenths of an inch!
saxpics User ID: 0436494	Feb 5th 4:39 PM The horn itself wouldn't be .2 tenths of an inch -- EACH measurement on the horn would be would be: the distance between tone holes and the size of the tone holes. If the entire horn was just .2 tenths of an inch shorter, you'd essentially have only one note out of tune, if you take the difference from the bottom of the horn (i.e., the low Bb would be out of tune). Mark, your statement is essentially saying that, say, a Mark VI low A alto is tuned to a different frequency than a Mark VI low Bb alto because they're two different sizes. They're obviously not, even though the low A horn may have some other problems :) Of course, this is also maintaining the size of the bore. (It'd be easier to shrink the entire bore and maintain everything else, IMHO, to get to A=442, but while this might be mechanically easier, I know that it's more difficult in practice.) As previously stated, this is not necessarily that much of a difference -- and the average person that listens to a soloist wouldn't note the difference. Playing with another instrumentalist, if neither is compensating, you would hear a difference. ... and many digital tuners can recognize that little of a difference (high end Korg, for instance). You can hear the difference if you have a Yamaha DX7 or Roland synth: tune it to A=442. Go to your local music shop and buy a tuning fork that's tuned to A=440. Play an A on the synth and then tap the tuning fork. Listen. There is a noticeable difference. Let's just say there is a difference, but that differece is not necessarily that noticible in a group, unless you have perfect (not relative) pitch. It's more noticible when you have a duet. I'd actually like someone to try the test I suggest, above, and e-mail it to me as an MP3. Not a recording: the pitch is distorted based on the speed of the motor in the casette player. CD's are digital. Paul Cohen did essentially this with a LP Conn vs. a HP Conn and the results were not as pleasant (HP Conn's were up to A=460hz).
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 5th 7:05 PM The difference is one half of one percent. 40 - (40 * .005) = 39.8 inches. Each tone hole would be one half of one percent smaller, the distance between toneholes would be one half of one percent closer. The total horn would be .2 inches shorter. The low A example is bad because the tonehole size and placement are the same as a Bb horn (not true, as most everything from D on down has to be adjusted for the extra length, but that's getting real picky). Yes, the difference you would hear is exactly two 'beat' tones per second (a wa-wa sound). Easy to do on a guitar. I'll make a .wav and put it out for people to hear. The old High Pitch horns are not playable with low pitch.
MBushaw User ID: 9990163	Feb 6th 2:18 PM http://www.elsegundoccb.org/440442.wav I've put a short 1 minute .wav file at this location. One channel has 440Hz the other has 442Hz. These are pure sine waves, so it is very easy to hear the 'beat' tone. Use your balance control to pan between the two, and see if you can tell which is which. CAUTION- as pure sine waves, they contain a lot of energy and may damage speakers if played at high volume for very long. It should be safe with the 1 minute sample, but be careful.
saxpics User ID: 1202654	Feb 6th 5:30 PM I'm busily downloading the file. 10mb! Mark, you're killin' me! Revenge of Boosey: they responded to the e-mail I sent regarding the S1, etc., above: "The difference between S3 and S3 Prestige is only the material, the tube is the same. The S3 Prestige has been manufactured since 1989 and it is the one mentioned on the website. Before the S3 Prestige there was the S1 Prestige manufactured from 1981 to 1988 (sorry I did not mentioned that one on the Boosey forum) "If there is the letter 'A' after the serial number that means American model i.e. A=440 if there is the letter 'E' for Europe that means A=442. If nothing is mentioned it is at A=442. "According to the demand the neck and some other small things were changed to be the American model. As far as I am told S2 model was not sold in America therefore there should not be the case for the S2." Yes, I asked for a clarification of this clarification: * Does this mean that the S3 Prestige is the copper horn and the S3 is the silver model? * Was the S1 Prestige a copper model? How was it different from the S1? It looks like the folks that say their S2's are A=440 are wrong or Boosey is wrong ... Just so you know, I sent an e-mail to the Boosey forum administrator, and got this e-mail back from someone in Germany at W. Schreiber & Söhne -- and the e-mail starts with, "I have pleasure to forward the reply of my colleagues at Buffet Crampon to you." I mentioned a language barrier before: it goes from English to French to German to English ...
manofsteel User ID: 9084913	Feb 6th 7:09 PM Okay Saxpics and MBushaw, Interesting discussion, but pretty off topic now. Does anyone know how the Buffet-Powell horn sounds? The one FA is really cheap and I still have a Christmas bonus that is burning a hole in my pocket!
MBushaw User ID: 0701364	Feb 6th 9:01 PM I'm sorry, I didn't even look at the file size!! Yikes!!!! Do you have to download it all, or does it start playing immediatly? So they DO indicate tuning on the horn, well then, that's a different, that is to say,,,, um,,, Nevermind. Hold it. Since when is there an S3 available in America?? Manofsteel- Buffet-Powell??? what's that???
Prince User ID: 0136334	Feb 7th 6:20 AM Saxpics, The B&H's webmaster is my friend. She is a specialist in web design not saxophone or clarinet. So, I have no surprise that she says that to you. However, she is a very nice lady.
saxpics User ID: 9175333	Feb 7th 5:45 PM Not too much of a problem, Mark. I think it'll convert nicely into an MP3. I've downloaded the whole 11mb and my impression: - The difference in intonation isn't significant (as afore thought), but I think over the long haul it could be a bit annoying, especially if you're playing 1/4 steps or long tones. Anyhow, the final answer from Gaby at Boosey.com: * Was the S1 Prestige a copper-plated horn? yes it was * Is the S3 Prestige available as an A=440 hz horn? yes it could but it has to be specified while ordering Thank you to all who participated! If you have S1, S2 or S3 horns, please deluge me with pics at saxpics@hotmail.com
saxpics User ID: 9175333	Feb 7th 5:50 PM manofsteel, I don't know how well the Buffet-Powell horns play. I have been told by SAXTEK, my frequent contributor and NAPBIRT tech, that the octave mechanism and vents are extremely good. I can also truly say that I've never played a bad Buffet, and the B-P horns look extremely well made (and Powell doesn't make cheap flutes). How much is the price currently? The last pics I saw were of a horn missing 90% of it's lacquer ...
Mack User ID: 9858163	Feb 12th 8:34 AM Saxpics, Does that mean that the S-1 Prestige is only copper-plated and not a solid copper horn?
saxpics User ID: 3445384	Mar 10th 6:45 PM Resurrecting this topic for a limited-time-only :) I've been researching Conn patents and I actually came across the Buffet-Powell patent letter and drawings. It's patent number 2051176 (US). You can access it by going to www.uspto.gov (or similar) and typing in the patent number. A few weeks ago, I had some small patent photos forwarded to me, and I saw the B-P pictured. Unfortunately, the pics were too small to make out any detail, but the patent drawings I now have are 8.5 x 11 and they have great detail. Anyhow, these horns were not made by Verne Q. Powell, as I had originally thought, but by Edward Powell (who, according to http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/torture2.html and a couple other 'sites, is the son of Verne Q. and was a flute teacher). Dunno how Buffet and Powell were connected, though. You rarely see the patent-holder's name on a saxophone, so I still think that the Powell company(www.powellflutes.com) had some association with Buffet. The patent date is August 18, 1936. One can assume that production started around that time. Finally, E.V. Powell has several patent drawings for ANOTHER saxophone, which I have yet to see manufactured examples of. ======== Oh, Mack -- it's copper, not copper-plated. Y'all take care out there. Pete