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Sax on the Web Archive / Buffet Archive / Buffet Powell

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docsado
User ID: 1056474
Jan 10th 9:10 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1500891008

Was this one ever in production? Dig the neck!
saxpics
User ID: 0415304
Jan 11th 1:08 AM
Oh, yes. They were in production.

The Buffet-Powell horns were produced from about 1930 to 1935 (say, s/n 30xxx to 35xxx. There's a better serial number chart at http://www.saxophon-service.de/homep/saxophon.htm) and I think they're one of the most beautiful horns in existence.

The horn doesn't have three octave KEYS, it has three octave VENTS -- the additional vents on the neck are supposed to make the altissimo easier to play. This feature has been "updated" and is now included on the Selmer S80 Series III "Harmonic" horns (and on some S80II's).

In any event, Powell is a maker of extremely expensive flutes, and one would not think they'd associate themselves with a poorly-made saxophone.

As far as I can tell, these horns were only available in alto and tenor models and probably were only available as a lacquer body, lacquer keys and the silver keytouches. Possibly silver plate, but Buffet seems to have been a bit allergic to plating horns. Post 1930 plated Buffets are rare.

However, I think I'd want a lower price on this particular example: it is a relacquer (although it retains the silver keytouches on the sidfe keys. That's nice.) and that may have damaged the intonation of the horn.

Hope this helps! I'll have my Buffet gallery on-line in a couple weeks!

Pete
saxpics@hotmail.com
www.saxpics.com
paulwl
User ID: 0909594
Jan 11th 1:24 AM
Anybody know the rationale behind making all the keys hinge on the same side?
Mack
User ID: 9858163
Jan 11th 1:46 AM
Actually it looks like the horn has four octave vents, two on the neck and two on the body. Other pictures I have seen of this horn also suggest that. Can anyone confirm this or am I hallucinating?

Saxpics, I look forward to see your Buffet gallery.
saxpics
User ID: 0415304
Jan 11th 1:58 AM
Darn! Haven't posted the picture yet!

Mack, I believe you're right. I have a closeup of a 3269x alto that has at least two on the body and the two on the neck. Unfortunately, it's only a shot of one side of the horn.

paulwl, IMHO the reason why all the body keys were hinged on the same side was that the action is supposed to be "faster". I think it'd be difficult to repair. It's possible there are additional vents on the body, too, to help with intonation (a la the Loomis "Double Resonance" horns). I'd have to count!

Also note the low C key rod: it's at about a 45 degree angle (the pictures there don't show this well). Same with the C#. This is intentional -- it's on the other examples I have pics of.

G'night, all!
madav
User ID: 8820133
Jan 11th 1:58 PM
looks absolutely stunning - me want!
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 19th 8:20 PM
The auction is ended. Anybody here got it?
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 19th 8:42 PM
Hey Saxpics, why do you keep calling the Conn28M 'Director' and the 18M 'Constellation'?
saxpics
User ID: 6988453
Jan 20th 11:05 PM
Prince, the 28M is the one with the funky plastic keyguard; designed by Santy Runyon. The 18M is the one with shooting stars, etc. on the bell.

I've also known a couple players that own 18M's that call 'em the Connstellation model, and I've heard a few folks refer to the 28M as the "Director" model. I think that makes a lot more sense, considering the engraving on the 28M is the standard Conn logo of three guys marching.

That's why I try to include the model numbers, not what people like to call 'em. Good example is the Martin Committee horns, which most people like to call "The Martin" models.

If you do have documentation from a different source that you have the "correct" names, I'd be more than willing to change. As far as I'm aware, the only horns with a "Conn-" name were the Connqueror 26/30M models (the name is engraved on the bell).

==============

I've posted my entire cache of Buffet pictures at my 'site. Have fun!
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 25th 3:29 AM
http://www.saxgourmet.com/history/1215Connstellationad.jpg
and
http://www.saxgourmet.com/history/28M%20ad.jpg

This is from Steve's website. I also own a 28M. I think these particular horns (28M) are named Constellation. I don't know much about the 18M, by the way.
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 25th 3:47 AM
Just checked out your new Buffet sites. Well, realy nice pics, but it is wrong, unfortunately.
The copper horns that you believed to be the S3 are actually the S1 copper version. The real S3 horns have as the same key works as the S2 do. The S3 horns are also made in Germany by Keilwerth not France anymore. I was at the JK's factory when they just started producing the S3.
This is very important to make all the information more accurate. Because, I've already suggested a lot of my students and my friends to use your website as a reference.

I will get you some pictures of real S3 soon.
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 25th 3:52 AM
One more thing, the S2 horn is not a 'high pitch' it could be tuned at A=440. I do have one.
madav
User ID: 9892733
Jan 25th 4:52 AM
on an earlier thread "Keilworth factory shutdown", Stephan, who is based next to the Keilworth factory, and who has worked there, clearly stated that while Boosey and Hawkes owns both companies, Buffet continues to make it's own Prestige saxes in France
saxpics
User ID: 1251404
Jan 25th 10:05 AM
My comments on the S2/S3 are based on 1) a couple of e-mails that were sent to me (one from a NAPBRIT tech) and 2) the Boosey website, before all the pictures were removed. Note that the alto example I have pictured has "Prestige" engraved on the bell.

Please also note what it says on the top of my S Series page:

"There are some rumors that all three models were produced at the same time (a SOTW poster has a catalog that lists all three models for sale in 'the early 80's').

"It essentially positions the Prestige as the super-pro horn, the S1 as a jazzier alternative and the S2 as an intermediate.

"This may be the case, but not until after 1981 -- the S2 and S3 are high pitch horns, the S1 is not.

"I'd find it hard to believe that Buffet just happens to have three sets of saxophone tooling around, considering their low saxophone production.

"According to a later post, only the S3 was produced after 1985.

"I have not seen enough S1's to make a determination that they were produced into the mid 80's, nor enough S3's to say they were produced earlier.

"It is definitely possible that the S2 and S3 were produced at about the same time (note the s/n 36xxx horns, below)."

In other words, it's possible that we're talking about TWO different series of horns. The S3 that's being produced today is called a Prestige and it does have a copper body. The last pics I saw on www.boosey.com doesn't have rollers and it is pitched at A=442hz (documented on the Boosey webpage). It's possible that's changed recently.

I've been told from a couple sources that the S2 is pitched at A=442hz. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tuned at A=440."

I've heard mixed reports on the S2: some people position it as the sucessor to the S1 and some position it as an intermediate horn that compliments the S3.

I've received a couple of e-mails and I've seen a number of posts that says that some S3's are Keilwerth made and some are not (e.g. the post from madav). The Keilwerth made ones are supposedly cheaper quality, too.

It's probable that the only resolution can be reached through Boosey: they now have a forum and I will post questions concerning these models there. They have been a bit less than forthcoming with data in the past.

It is well within the realm of possibility that I can be wrong: it's happened a couple times. If I weren't wrong a couple of times, I wouldn't have a website or it wouldn't improve with each update.

Prince, you are right about the 28M. When I had initially got my Conn pages up, the ad wasn't available. Thanks for the link.

Final comment: if you have a problem with something I've posted on my website, I have my e-mail address at the bottom of practically every page. If you're wondering where I got my info and/or why I say something in a specific way, please send me an e-mail: it's not polite to post "Nice pics; but you're wrong" in a forum.

Sorry for the extra long post, Harri!
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 25th 8:01 PM
To Harri (saxpics)

First thing first, please accept my apology about saying the word "Nice pics, but you're wrong". I didn't really mean that. I actually find your website is very useful as I have mentioned before.

I'm not exactly sure about my S2 pitch, but it plays in tune when I play with other people, and when I calibrate my tuner at A=440.

But, normally, I tune my horns and my band at A=442. This makes my band sound a little bit brighter. My MKVI plays more in tune when I tune it at A=442 too.

Thanks for making such a nice and very useful website. Please, don't stop doing that.

Regards,
Prince
saxpics
User ID: 0206274
Jan 25th 11:13 PM
Prince, Harri is definitely not me :)

Kind-of a mutual apology thing, then: I've had a hard week of people picking at me in several different threads. I don't care for it much, especially when I put a good deal of time and effort into research, I'm genuinely trying to help others AND because I'm trying to get a research grant from someone so I can devote the correct attention to my "online saxophone museum", as some have called it.

Really, if your comment was worded like, "I think you may be mistaken ..." or something similar, I wouldn't have been harsh -- possibly because I've seen too many good folks get shot at in other threads.

You definitely had some points and I'm glad you made them, I just didn't like the presentation.

Truce?
Prince
User ID: 0136334
Jan 26th 9:22 AM
Truce.

Looking forward to see your 'online museum' development.

:-)
mutha potamus
User ID: 2240694
Jan 26th 10:22 AM
I also own an S2 (36,XXX) that I suspect was made by Keilwerth. While I'm not certain of this, I think it's an A=440 horn...at least intonation seems better when tunes that way.

saxpics
User ID: 8715613
Jan 26th 12:00 PM
Hmmmm ...

All, I've posted questions to www.boosey.com's message boards and hopefully we'll see some results soon. The board has essentially "moderator-approved topics only", so my original questions may be chopped up, if posted at all:

* What are the actual production dates for the S1, S2 and S3?
* Was the S1 or S2 ever available in copper?
* What is the serial number range for Keilwerth made Buffet saxophones?
* Was the S2 initially introduced as a pro horn and then transitioned into an intermediate model?

I currently believe that there were two versions of the S2, with the original model as kinda a replacement for the S1 and then it was transitioned into an intermediate model -- and that they were initially introduced at one pitch and then transitioned to another.

m.p., when you tune your horn and hit a concert A, your horn hits dead on middle for your tuner? Everything else dead on or do you have to significantly adjust your embouchoure, mouthpiece, etc.? If everything's dead on (more-or-less :), it's definitely A=440hz.

If I get any response from Buffet, I'll try to go for the other Buffet topic on springs!
mutha potamus
User ID: 2240694
Jan 26th 1:13 PM
I just checked it with the tuner...it's definitely a low pitch.

I'd like to get my hands on an SX90 to compare the two...I suspect they might be quite similar...
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