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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Buffet Archive / Keilwerth making Buffet?

mostly alto guy
User ID: 0610144 Jun 3rd 12:53 PM
I've tried this thread in other places, but no luck, so I'll give it a go hear.

Is JK making the current production Buffet S3 Prestige? I read somewhere that the S3 is just a copper-bodied SX90, but that doesn't make sense given the 440/442 argument. Can anyone solve this mystery?

Marcus Melody
User ID: 0478154 Jun 4th 8:20 AM
I haven't heard the 440/442 argument, but the S3 prestige has most details in common with the Keilwerth SX90. At least the one that is for sale at http://www.jonnab.se/

I'm not 100% sure, but I think it read "Made in Germany" on the body. I can check again next time I visit this store.

mostly alto guy
User ID: 8639383 Jun 4th 12:19 PM
I've been talking with that seller about the S3 in their stock. Definitely 442, and built in Paris, according to them. But all SX90s are 440, so unless the only difference is in the neck, I have a hard time believing this is a copper SX90. Can you remember if it has any S1 features, esp articulated RH pinky keys? High F#?

If you do go there again, remind them they do have a serious customer, the guy from KFOR. That's me.

saxpics
User ID: 9293943 Jun 5th 10:15 PM
The 440/442 argument was originally unearthed by me, and has been the subject of about 200 posts so far on something like six threads. Here it is in a nutshell: according to a Boosey & Hawkes spokesperson, i.e a person from the company that owns Buffet that I wrote to, the Buffet S1 and S3 were primarily available as high pitch A=442hz instruments. There were A=440hz horns made "with slight modifications to the neck, for the American market", however, and these horns have an "A" after the serial number. (For full details, see my Buffet S series page at www.saxpics.com/buffet/sseries.htm).

Anyhow, there has been a standard rumor, unconfirmed by Boosey, but kinda obvious in the construction of some recent horns, that certian Buffet S2's (an intermediate horn not released in the US) and S3's that were actually made by Keilwerth technicians with Keilwerth tooling.

I've tried to get Buffet to comment on this, and they've been unresponsive. Other posts here indicate that there are a couple thousand Keilwerth-made Buffet horns, but no one knows the exact serial number range.

In any event, I have seen some S2's that are obviously Keilwerths -- different style keyguards, different keywork and possibly rolled tone holes (the pictures are a bit indistinct).

That's all I know right now. You might want to check out the Buffet and Keilwerth forums at www.boosey.com -- but be warned: topics to their message boards are only posted if approved by the admins.

Ta!
Pete

mostly alto guy
User ID: 0860834 Jun 7th 1:01 PM
Thanks Pete. I've read those fora, and they aren't much help. What about a real copper SX90R? I've seen a couple listed for sale in a shop in Belgium. What is their sound all about?

saxpics
User ID: 3180504 Jun 18th 2:44 PM
Sorry I hadn't answered. I kinda pick and choose threads, because there's so many. If y'all want me immediately (or quickly, at least :), write to saxpics@hotmail.com.

According to the Boosey and Hawkes website, the S3 Prestige and other horns "... are made out of copper because copper warms up more evenly and provides a mellower tone."

Amusingly, Boosey and Hawkes then comments elswhere that "... marterials used in conical bore instruments makes no difference in sound quality." (There are several hundred posters on this website who would disagree with this assertion.)

I know: this doesn't help and is contradictory. Sorry.

I've not tried any copper horns. Yet. Copper is a major component in brass, though, and I've heard many reports that 1960's Selmer Mark VI's sound better because there's more copper in the mix (IMO, all Mark VI's sound about the same).

madav
User ID: 9892733 Jun 19th 2:08 AM
maybe you should email Buffet directly. I contacted them a couple of times with an enquiry using the email address supplied by B&H and was answered promptly and with relevant info. both times.

Mack
User ID: 9858163 Jun 19th 4:15 AM
There is at least one difference btween the S3 and SX90 bodies: The placement of the high F# tonehole. The S3 has a cutout in the neck for the F# key.

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Jun 19th 4:35 AM
I would go further than that; apart from maybe the pads I wouldn't think a single part would be compatible between the two, they have nothing in common at all except B&H owns both Buffet and JK. That's not to say that JK workers couldn't make Buffets but they'd need the Buffet jigs and machinery. Having said that, is Buffet actually making more than a handful of S3s anyway? I can picture a few parts on remaining a shelf, and they knock one up from time to time!

mostly alto guy
User ID: 0122954 Jun 19th 1:08 PM
Have any of you played an S3?

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Jun 20th 5:47 AM
That would spoil the mystique wouldn't it?

saxpics
User ID: 2818304 Jun 20th 12:09 PM
S3's are uncommon in the US. I'd like to just play test one, but I'd have to get one special ordered out here, and I don't want to buy one.

steve, I not only accept but I concur with what you're talking about: the Buffets I've seen that were made by JK have only a passing resemblence to the Buffet-made-Buffets (now THAT was confusing :). JK has a history of supplying sax bodies to other manufacturers, though, and that manufacturer provides their own keywork. Finally, it's rather well established that sax manufacturers make some horns with whatever spare parts they have lying around. The main examples are bass saxophones, but this also seems to have been the case with some of the last Buescher-made-Bueschers.

madav, I have posted on the Boosey website and also sent them a few e-mails. They are, for some reason, reticent on the subject of Keilwerth producing Buffet horns and they completely ignore my questions about JK producing Buffet horns. Maybe it's the idea of a German working on a French horn. I don't think it's a quality issue. The only JK's I know of that are really low quality are the Fogware/Edgeware horns.

My comments about copper, etc. are directly from what Boosey has posted on their website.

mostly alto guy
User ID: 0122954 Jun 22nd 1:01 PM
Well, turnabout is fair play, and in this case, Buffet is supplying S3 Prestige bodies to JK, and the finish work is done in the Nauheim factory. I've just spent about an hour and a half over two days with one attached to my hands. I'd have played it a lot more, but I had othr business to attend to.

If you ever get a chance to play one of these, DO IT! It is an amazing instrument.

Ron
User ID: 7301983 Jun 28th 8:35 AM
Mostly Alto Guy - Where can you buy a new copper S3 Prestige in the US, or do you have to get one in Europe, say, from Musique et Art?

mostly alto guy
User ID: 0122954 Jul 3rd 3:32 PM
You can order one from Stephan, as I have. That way you know you're getting le creme de les cremes.

Mack
User ID: 9858163 Jul 5th 6:37 AM
You can get them from many dealers in Europe. The price is just a little more than that of a Selmer Series III.

mostly alto guy User ID: 0610144	Jun 3rd 12:53 PM I've tried this thread in other places, but no luck, so I'll give it a go hear. Is JK making the current production Buffet S3 Prestige? I read somewhere that the S3 is just a copper-bodied SX90, but that doesn't make sense given the 440/442 argument. Can anyone solve this mystery?
Marcus Melody User ID: 0478154	Jun 4th 8:20 AM I haven't heard the 440/442 argument, but the S3 prestige has most details in common with the Keilwerth SX90. At least the one that is for sale at http://www.jonnab.se/ I'm not 100% sure, but I think it read "Made in Germany" on the body. I can check again next time I visit this store.
mostly alto guy User ID: 8639383	Jun 4th 12:19 PM I've been talking with that seller about the S3 in their stock. Definitely 442, and built in Paris, according to them. But all SX90s are 440, so unless the only difference is in the neck, I have a hard time believing this is a copper SX90. Can you remember if it has any S1 features, esp articulated RH pinky keys? High F#? If you do go there again, remind them they do have a serious customer, the guy from KFOR. That's me.
saxpics User ID: 9293943	Jun 5th 10:15 PM The 440/442 argument was originally unearthed by me, and has been the subject of about 200 posts so far on something like six threads. Here it is in a nutshell: according to a Boosey & Hawkes spokesperson, i.e a person from the company that owns Buffet that I wrote to, the Buffet S1 and S3 were primarily available as high pitch A=442hz instruments. There were A=440hz horns made "with slight modifications to the neck, for the American market", however, and these horns have an "A" after the serial number. (For full details, see my Buffet S series page at www.saxpics.com/buffet/sseries.htm). Anyhow, there has been a standard rumor, unconfirmed by Boosey, but kinda obvious in the construction of some recent horns, that certian Buffet S2's (an intermediate horn not released in the US) and S3's that were actually made by Keilwerth technicians with Keilwerth tooling. I've tried to get Buffet to comment on this, and they've been unresponsive. Other posts here indicate that there are a couple thousand Keilwerth-made Buffet horns, but no one knows the exact serial number range. In any event, I have seen some S2's that are obviously Keilwerths -- different style keyguards, different keywork and possibly rolled tone holes (the pictures are a bit indistinct). That's all I know right now. You might want to check out the Buffet and Keilwerth forums at www.boosey.com -- but be warned: topics to their message boards are only posted if approved by the admins. Ta! Pete
mostly alto guy User ID: 0860834	Jun 7th 1:01 PM Thanks Pete. I've read those fora, and they aren't much help. What about a real copper SX90R? I've seen a couple listed for sale in a shop in Belgium. What is their sound all about?
saxpics User ID: 3180504	Jun 18th 2:44 PM Sorry I hadn't answered. I kinda pick and choose threads, because there's so many. If y'all want me immediately (or quickly, at least :), write to saxpics@hotmail.com. According to the Boosey and Hawkes website, the S3 Prestige and other horns "... are made out of copper because copper warms up more evenly and provides a mellower tone." Amusingly, Boosey and Hawkes then comments elswhere that "... marterials used in conical bore instruments makes no difference in sound quality." (There are several hundred posters on this website who would disagree with this assertion.) I know: this doesn't help and is contradictory. Sorry. I've not tried any copper horns. Yet. Copper is a major component in brass, though, and I've heard many reports that 1960's Selmer Mark VI's sound better because there's more copper in the mix (IMO, all Mark VI's sound about the same).
madav User ID: 9892733	Jun 19th 2:08 AM maybe you should email Buffet directly. I contacted them a couple of times with an enquiry using the email address supplied by B&H and was answered promptly and with relevant info. both times.
Mack User ID: 9858163	Jun 19th 4:15 AM There is at least one difference btween the S3 and SX90 bodies: The placement of the high F# tonehole. The S3 has a cutout in the neck for the F# key.
stevew User ID: 8868883	Jun 19th 4:35 AM I would go further than that; apart from maybe the pads I wouldn't think a single part would be compatible between the two, they have nothing in common at all except B&H owns both Buffet and JK. That's not to say that JK workers couldn't make Buffets but they'd need the Buffet jigs and machinery. Having said that, is Buffet actually making more than a handful of S3s anyway? I can picture a few parts on remaining a shelf, and they knock one up from time to time!
mostly alto guy User ID: 0122954	Jun 19th 1:08 PM Have any of you played an S3?
stevew User ID: 8868883	Jun 20th 5:47 AM That would spoil the mystique wouldn't it?
saxpics User ID: 2818304	Jun 20th 12:09 PM S3's are uncommon in the US. I'd like to just play test one, but I'd have to get one special ordered out here, and I don't want to buy one. steve, I not only accept but I concur with what you're talking about: the Buffets I've seen that were made by JK have only a passing resemblence to the Buffet-made-Buffets (now THAT was confusing :). JK has a history of supplying sax bodies to other manufacturers, though, and that manufacturer provides their own keywork. Finally, it's rather well established that sax manufacturers make some horns with whatever spare parts they have lying around. The main examples are bass saxophones, but this also seems to have been the case with some of the last Buescher-made-Bueschers. madav, I have posted on the Boosey website and also sent them a few e-mails. They are, for some reason, reticent on the subject of Keilwerth producing Buffet horns and they completely ignore my questions about JK producing Buffet horns. Maybe it's the idea of a German working on a French horn. I don't think it's a quality issue. The only JK's I know of that are really low quality are the Fogware/Edgeware horns. My comments about copper, etc. are directly from what Boosey has posted on their website.
mostly alto guy User ID: 0122954	Jun 22nd 1:01 PM Well, turnabout is fair play, and in this case, Buffet is supplying S3 Prestige bodies to JK, and the finish work is done in the Nauheim factory. I've just spent about an hour and a half over two days with one attached to my hands. I'd have played it a lot more, but I had othr business to attend to. If you ever get a chance to play one of these, DO IT! It is an amazing instrument.
Ron User ID: 7301983	Jun 28th 8:35 AM Mostly Alto Guy - Where can you buy a new copper S3 Prestige in the US, or do you have to get one in Europe, say, from Musique et Art?
mostly alto guy User ID: 0122954	Jul 3rd 3:32 PM You can order one from Stephan, as I have. That way you know you're getting le creme de les cremes.
Mack User ID: 9858163	Jul 5th 6:37 AM You can get them from many dealers in Europe. The price is just a little more than that of a Selmer Series III.