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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Buffet Archive / SDA v DA

Next 20 Messages

madav
User ID: 1167284 Apr 28th 1:34 AM
We touched on this in the Buffet thread,and I have now had an opportunity to compare these tenors with the usual caveats regarding condition etc.

I can say that the Dynaction has a wider bore at the neck, and slightly wider finger spacings and I also have the impression that the palm keys are slightly bigger. The SDA has a different octave mechanism and different octave pip placement.
Tonally they 2 models are surprisingly similar, both with a nice dark sound with farly bright overtones. The altissimo on the SDA is easier, and it has a slightly brighter and more focussed sound. Both have a good solid bottom end. What I particularly like in both cases is that they resonate well and generate a good edge to the sound, giving quite a lot of tonal flexibility.

Matt K
User ID: 1035294 Apr 28th 9:10 AM
That's an excellent description of the vintage Buffet sound.

Matt K
User ID: 7092963 May 11th 11:39 AM
My series VII is on the way so I'll weigh in when I get it.

mostly alto guy
User ID: 2588804 May 17th 12:41 AM
Sounds like both the DA and SDA are throatier, more gutsy than the S1, which in my albeit limited experience tends toward a sweeter, more focued, shall I say "Frenchier" and (in a way) more flutely sound, more suited to classical. Would you agree?

stevew
User ID: 8868883 May 17th 3:10 AM
On tenor, certainly yes. I haven't had the SDA or DA alto to compare.

Matt K
User ID: 9112483 May 19th 10:51 AM
OK here it is! The moment all three of you have been waiting for!
I got the S.VII. First of all, I like it very much. Sounds very similar to the SDA. Even more free blowing. Intonation is NOT as good. Have to pull out pretty far to get the pitch down.
I have mixed feelings about the keywork.

The good: Table keys are MUCH better. Esp. the low C#. It's a direct linkage and nice and light.
Why did they change to that damn triple reverse double sprung counter rocker steam shovel action?
I don't know. The rest is really light and smooth. The G# is lighter than the SDA too.

The bad: The left hand stack is rotated way around to the right as you hold the horn, compared to the SDA. I've been rotating the neck around trying to get comfortable with no luck.
The strap hook compounds this problem greatly. Big surprise. They never could figure out where to put that thing. The octave key and thumbrest suck too. That little button doesn't give enough support and the key rotates in the opposite direction from the SDA.
I think if I move the strap hook to the left and make a new LH thumb rest that it will balance the horn better. When I hold it at this angle the bell points way off to the left.
I'd say tthe key placement is the greatest improvement on the SDA. But why oh why did they change that sweet low C#?

Matt K
User ID: 9112483 May 19th 11:52 AM
Here's the link to my s. vii tenor...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=869217898&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1020943692&indexURL=0&rd=1

jotteff May 19th 4:11 PM
Matt, I've been eagerly waiting for your findings as well. Saw that auction early in the morning (German time), had an appointment, so I just bookmarked it and, of course, it was gone when I came back...

Well, at least, that experience brought me so far that I now very seriously consider buying the S.VII that Sarge at WWS is currently offering. From what you report, I think I could live with the ergonomics. From "had to pull out pretty far to get the pitch down" I gather it's tuned to slighlty higher than 440 Hz, but was it still in tune with itself or did it take a lot of effort to stay on pitch through the registers? Soundwise, would you think madav's comparison DA-SDA would equally apply to S.VII-SDA?
Would anyone know a good reason to go for a S.VIII or Dynaction instead of a S.VII?

Matt K
User ID: 9112483 May 19th 10:52 PM
The sound on the vii is HUGE. Louder and less resistance than the SDA. Still dark with the same basic sound. As powerful as you can get.
The same great response and flexibility. I was playing to a wall earlier not even pushing it and my ears were ringing.

I was testing my new one of a kind
"Matt K Custom Adjustable Straphook"
Hand made and individually fitted to each horn from a new space age synthetic zip tie.
Actually 2 zip ties. Strapped one around the horn, put another smaller one through it, pulled the first one tight, looped the smaller one down to the appropriate size and bam-different horn.
Think of the possibilities:
Keep an extra strap hook in your case, just in case. that's kinda punny

In my case, (oh stop) it allowed me to move the hook back and forth to find the perfect spot and takes the guesswork out if I decide to put a permanent hook on. It works so good though, I may not need anything else.

What if a zip tie breaks you ask?
I thought about that as soon I hooked it up.
So I just doubled both zip ties. Now 2 zip ties have to break at the same time for the hook to fail. The ones around the horn are 10" and rated at 85 pounds so one of them would do fine but you can't be too careful. It also keeps the hook where you put it.
So this contraption swung the horn right around where I wanted it and let me dial it in perfect.
It also emphasizes the amount of difference in the two horns because when I get set like on the SDA, the bell is cocked to the left at least 20

Matt K
User ID: 9112483 May 19th 10:57 PM
degrees.
Not sure what happened there.
Anyway the next thing is that left hand thumbrest.
I got some jb weld and I'm thinking about how to do it. I wonder is this what Emilio or whoever uses to make key risers? Hey I won't hurt the lacquer.

madav
User ID: 1167284 May 20th 1:15 AM
I think i have had similar problems with the DA regarding strap hooks. It could possible be that the placement is designed for sitting, with the horn hanging on your right. Unfortunately I never play sitting. Playing standing I rest the bell on the middel of my right thigh rather than hanging around in the "middle" as normal.

The thumb rest is a concave button which is a little uncomfortable at first, but which is actually less prone to "accidental" activation than on my SDA.

For the rest the sound is very mpc-dependent. I prefer the SDA sound which is more modern, but there's not much difference when you put a high baffle piece on. In my experience the DA, with a wider bore, has that older core sound, but oyu have to be listening for it. Actually, for me the intonation is better on my DA than SDA, but that may be because it leaks in the right places.

Finally, the springs on my DA are lighter than the SDA. The SDA has stronger lacquered/plated springs that give a more positive feel which I prefer. But like may other old horns, the light feel on the DA can allow you to play very relaxed and fast.

Matt K
User ID: 9112483 May 22nd 9:41 AM
I searched around SOTW and finally found the stuff for keyrisers. Marine epoxy putty. Works great. Just cut off a chunk, knead it, and start sculpting. I got the 15 minute stuff.
My vii now has the left and right thumbrests of my dreams.

Matt K
User ID: 0247944 Jun 1st 11:11 PM
Right now the vii is winning the ongoing battle of the Boofays. I put the SDA in the shop. It seems to be a little out of whack. I think.
The vii is so much more open that it's hard to tell. The more I play the vii, the more stuffy the SDA seems. The bass player I play with says he likes the sound of the SDA better. Says it's more complex. I'm not so sure. They are so similar that he's the only one that has noticed a difference without hearing them side by side.
I've cheered alot about how responsive the SDA is and the vii has considerably better response.
The keywork is lighter and generally has a more positive feel.
I've been playing the vii for about two weeks and now the table keys on the SDA feel pretty awful to me.
I think the vii has tons of personality and is very comfortable (with a few tweaks noted above).

I would like to know two things:

1. What year it was made. serial#110x

2. What the tuning is. My guess is 445 or higher.
It will play in tune with itself but is not as solid as the SDA.
If you sit in front of a tuner with it, it will drive you nuts, so I just dialed it in close and let my ear do the rest.
On gigs it has been no problem.

Donn G
User ID: 9140763 Jun 2nd 1:21 AM
Matt, your 110x serial number, if only 4 digits, was probably built pre-1952. Steve Goodson has a serial number chart for several makes and the earliest Buffet is #2925 built in 1952.

According to his chart, my SDA was built in 1973 which makes sense. I first played it in 1978 as a school horn. It was supposed to go back as the lease was 5 years old. I acquired it in a trade with a vito soprano.

My horn plays really well, but the left pinky quartet is difficult to navigate. Playing my B scale is probably the trickiest thing I do with my SDA as far as fingering (low B to low C# is not smooth!). I use alternate high E and F fingers as they flow better for the high register. I should put some wraps on my palm keys to build them up since I have big hands.

Matt K
User ID: 0247944 Jun 2nd 8:46 AM
I know this one was built between 1940 and 1945.
I'd just like to find out the exact year.
They started serial #'s over in 1940 after the fire and then apparently started over again around 1950 or so.

madav
User ID: 9892733 Jun 4th 1:33 AM
OK Matt, so what mpc's have you tried, and what sound are you going for ?

madav
User ID: 9892733 Jun 4th 1:38 AM
er - not just Matt, anyone can weigh in here. I Started off on a 50's bronze Berg, 130/2/M/, with Rico Royal 4, had a Dukoff LD10 which was for me the most comfortable, but lacked punch, Runyon QUantum, very easy but the core was too thin, Ponzol Super 120, very load and bright, Link STM 8* (still come back to this from time to time), but Lawton 9bb wins hands down at the moment with LaVoz MH.

Matt K
User ID: 0108854 Jun 4th 3:32 PM
I play a Morgan 6M. I've tried just about every pc. under the sun except a vintage Link and a Lawton. I've tried a bunch of excaliburs (Morgan)
and many others but always come right back to the 6M. I've used it for everything-jazz, rock, blues, shows, sessions. I don't even hope to find a better piece, it's my holy grail.

Madav, your first post describes my sound (I hope)
Dark, lots of overtones, the Morgan puts the edge on it, resonant, very flexible.

Matt K
User ID: 0108854 Jun 4th 3:33 PM
Currently using Zonda 3's BTW

Dom
User ID: 1216034 Jun 25th 6:46 PM
Hello
I recently purchased a Buffet SuperDynaction and I have a question. When I got the horn the neck was bent down so I had it raised up to the point where, when I stood it next to another SDA, it looked almost identical. I am finding that even now, the horn is really low. I have my neck strap up as high as it will go and the mouthpiece will only come up to about my chin so I have to crane forward to blow and even then, there is much downward pressure on my jaw. Are low necks a common feature on the SDA?

Next 20 Messages

madav User ID: 1167284	Apr 28th 1:34 AM We touched on this in the Buffet thread,and I have now had an opportunity to compare these tenors with the usual caveats regarding condition etc. I can say that the Dynaction has a wider bore at the neck, and slightly wider finger spacings and I also have the impression that the palm keys are slightly bigger. The SDA has a different octave mechanism and different octave pip placement. Tonally they 2 models are surprisingly similar, both with a nice dark sound with farly bright overtones. The altissimo on the SDA is easier, and it has a slightly brighter and more focussed sound. Both have a good solid bottom end. What I particularly like in both cases is that they resonate well and generate a good edge to the sound, giving quite a lot of tonal flexibility.
Matt K User ID: 1035294	Apr 28th 9:10 AM That's an excellent description of the vintage Buffet sound.
Matt K User ID: 7092963	May 11th 11:39 AM My series VII is on the way so I'll weigh in when I get it.
mostly alto guy User ID: 2588804	May 17th 12:41 AM Sounds like both the DA and SDA are throatier, more gutsy than the S1, which in my albeit limited experience tends toward a sweeter, more focued, shall I say "Frenchier" and (in a way) more flutely sound, more suited to classical. Would you agree?
stevew User ID: 8868883	May 17th 3:10 AM On tenor, certainly yes. I haven't had the SDA or DA alto to compare.
Matt K User ID: 9112483	May 19th 10:51 AM OK here it is! The moment all three of you have been waiting for! I got the S.VII. First of all, I like it very much. Sounds very similar to the SDA. Even more free blowing. Intonation is NOT as good. Have to pull out pretty far to get the pitch down. I have mixed feelings about the keywork. The good: Table keys are MUCH better. Esp. the low C#. It's a direct linkage and nice and light. Why did they change to that damn triple reverse double sprung counter rocker steam shovel action? I don't know. The rest is really light and smooth. The G# is lighter than the SDA too. The bad: The left hand stack is rotated way around to the right as you hold the horn, compared to the SDA. I've been rotating the neck around trying to get comfortable with no luck. The strap hook compounds this problem greatly. Big surprise. They never could figure out where to put that thing. The octave key and thumbrest suck too. That little button doesn't give enough support and the key rotates in the opposite direction from the SDA. I think if I move the strap hook to the left and make a new LH thumb rest that it will balance the horn better. When I hold it at this angle the bell points way off to the left. I'd say tthe key placement is the greatest improvement on the SDA. But why oh why did they change that sweet low C#?
Matt K User ID: 9112483	May 19th 11:52 AM Here's the link to my s. vii tenor... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=869217898&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1020943692&indexURL=0&rd=1
jotteff	May 19th 4:11 PM Matt, I've been eagerly waiting for your findings as well. Saw that auction early in the morning (German time), had an appointment, so I just bookmarked it and, of course, it was gone when I came back... Well, at least, that experience brought me so far that I now very seriously consider buying the S.VII that Sarge at WWS is currently offering. From what you report, I think I could live with the ergonomics. From "had to pull out pretty far to get the pitch down" I gather it's tuned to slighlty higher than 440 Hz, but was it still in tune with itself or did it take a lot of effort to stay on pitch through the registers? Soundwise, would you think madav's comparison DA-SDA would equally apply to S.VII-SDA? Would anyone know a good reason to go for a S.VIII or Dynaction instead of a S.VII?
Matt K User ID: 9112483	May 19th 10:52 PM The sound on the vii is HUGE. Louder and less resistance than the SDA. Still dark with the same basic sound. As powerful as you can get. The same great response and flexibility. I was playing to a wall earlier not even pushing it and my ears were ringing. I was testing my new one of a kind "Matt K Custom Adjustable Straphook" Hand made and individually fitted to each horn from a new space age synthetic zip tie. Actually 2 zip ties. Strapped one around the horn, put another smaller one through it, pulled the first one tight, looped the smaller one down to the appropriate size and bam-different horn. Think of the possibilities: Keep an extra strap hook in your case, just in case. that's kinda punny In my case, (oh stop) it allowed me to move the hook back and forth to find the perfect spot and takes the guesswork out if I decide to put a permanent hook on. It works so good though, I may not need anything else. What if a zip tie breaks you ask? I thought about that as soon I hooked it up. So I just doubled both zip ties. Now 2 zip ties have to break at the same time for the hook to fail. The ones around the horn are 10" and rated at 85 pounds so one of them would do fine but you can't be too careful. It also keeps the hook where you put it. So this contraption swung the horn right around where I wanted it and let me dial it in perfect. It also emphasizes the amount of difference in the two horns because when I get set like on the SDA, the bell is cocked to the left at least 20
Matt K User ID: 9112483	May 19th 10:57 PM degrees. Not sure what happened there. Anyway the next thing is that left hand thumbrest. I got some jb weld and I'm thinking about how to do it. I wonder is this what Emilio or whoever uses to make key risers? Hey I won't hurt the lacquer.
madav User ID: 1167284	May 20th 1:15 AM I think i have had similar problems with the DA regarding strap hooks. It could possible be that the placement is designed for sitting, with the horn hanging on your right. Unfortunately I never play sitting. Playing standing I rest the bell on the middel of my right thigh rather than hanging around in the "middle" as normal. The thumb rest is a concave button which is a little uncomfortable at first, but which is actually less prone to "accidental" activation than on my SDA. For the rest the sound is very mpc-dependent. I prefer the SDA sound which is more modern, but there's not much difference when you put a high baffle piece on. In my experience the DA, with a wider bore, has that older core sound, but oyu have to be listening for it. Actually, for me the intonation is better on my DA than SDA, but that may be because it leaks in the right places. Finally, the springs on my DA are lighter than the SDA. The SDA has stronger lacquered/plated springs that give a more positive feel which I prefer. But like may other old horns, the light feel on the DA can allow you to play very relaxed and fast.
Matt K User ID: 9112483	May 22nd 9:41 AM I searched around SOTW and finally found the stuff for keyrisers. Marine epoxy putty. Works great. Just cut off a chunk, knead it, and start sculpting. I got the 15 minute stuff. My vii now has the left and right thumbrests of my dreams.
Matt K User ID: 0247944	Jun 1st 11:11 PM Right now the vii is winning the ongoing battle of the Boofays. I put the SDA in the shop. It seems to be a little out of whack. I think. The vii is so much more open that it's hard to tell. The more I play the vii, the more stuffy the SDA seems. The bass player I play with says he likes the sound of the SDA better. Says it's more complex. I'm not so sure. They are so similar that he's the only one that has noticed a difference without hearing them side by side. I've cheered alot about how responsive the SDA is and the vii has considerably better response. The keywork is lighter and generally has a more positive feel. I've been playing the vii for about two weeks and now the table keys on the SDA feel pretty awful to me. I think the vii has tons of personality and is very comfortable (with a few tweaks noted above). I would like to know two things: 1. What year it was made. serial#110x 2. What the tuning is. My guess is 445 or higher. It will play in tune with itself but is not as solid as the SDA. If you sit in front of a tuner with it, it will drive you nuts, so I just dialed it in close and let my ear do the rest. On gigs it has been no problem.
Donn G User ID: 9140763	Jun 2nd 1:21 AM Matt, your 110x serial number, if only 4 digits, was probably built pre-1952. Steve Goodson has a serial number chart for several makes and the earliest Buffet is #2925 built in 1952. According to his chart, my SDA was built in 1973 which makes sense. I first played it in 1978 as a school horn. It was supposed to go back as the lease was 5 years old. I acquired it in a trade with a vito soprano. My horn plays really well, but the left pinky quartet is difficult to navigate. Playing my B scale is probably the trickiest thing I do with my SDA as far as fingering (low B to low C# is not smooth!). I use alternate high E and F fingers as they flow better for the high register. I should put some wraps on my palm keys to build them up since I have big hands.
Matt K User ID: 0247944	Jun 2nd 8:46 AM I know this one was built between 1940 and 1945. I'd just like to find out the exact year. They started serial #'s over in 1940 after the fire and then apparently started over again around 1950 or so.
madav User ID: 9892733	Jun 4th 1:33 AM OK Matt, so what mpc's have you tried, and what sound are you going for ?
madav User ID: 9892733	Jun 4th 1:38 AM er - not just Matt, anyone can weigh in here. I Started off on a 50's bronze Berg, 130/2/M/, with Rico Royal 4, had a Dukoff LD10 which was for me the most comfortable, but lacked punch, Runyon QUantum, very easy but the core was too thin, Ponzol Super 120, very load and bright, Link STM 8* (still come back to this from time to time), but Lawton 9bb wins hands down at the moment with LaVoz MH.
Matt K User ID: 0108854	Jun 4th 3:32 PM I play a Morgan 6M. I've tried just about every pc. under the sun except a vintage Link and a Lawton. I've tried a bunch of excaliburs (Morgan) and many others but always come right back to the 6M. I've used it for everything-jazz, rock, blues, shows, sessions. I don't even hope to find a better piece, it's my holy grail. Madav, your first post describes my sound (I hope) Dark, lots of overtones, the Morgan puts the edge on it, resonant, very flexible.
Matt K User ID: 0108854	Jun 4th 3:33 PM Currently using Zonda 3's BTW
Dom User ID: 1216034	Jun 25th 6:46 PM Hello I recently purchased a Buffet SuperDynaction and I have a question. When I got the horn the neck was bent down so I had it raised up to the point where, when I stood it next to another SDA, it looked almost identical. I am finding that even now, the horn is really low. I have my neck strap up as high as it will go and the mouthpiece will only come up to about my chin so I have to crane forward to blow and even then, there is much downward pressure on my jaw. Are low necks a common feature on the SDA?