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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / old Martin needs lipping waaaay down

bcrowell
User ID: 1592424 Aug 15th 11:08 AM
I have an old Martin bari (183360, says "The Martin" on it) that I picked up on e-bay and had thoroughly worked on by a respected, trusted technician. The tech put a huge amount of work into it, redoing solder joints that had been done incorrectly, straightening the tube, taking out some big dents, etc. This is my first professional-quality horn, and it's also my first time playing bari. (I have a vito tenor and a local-brand student alto that I've been playing for 10 years.) I got it back last night, but didn't have my mouthpiece with me, so I couldn't play it in the shop.

I'm finding that this horn is pretty darn difficult to play, and although I'm getting used to it somewhat, I could use some advice. The main thing that surprised me was how much I had to relax my lip. I don't normally bite the reed or anything, but the degree of relaxation this horn required really amazed me. I feel like I'm holding a soap bubble between my lips and trying to keep from bursting it. If I apply what is to me a normal amount of pressure, the notes above the break from D to F# all play the harmonic a fifth above. The horn is also extremely sharp if I use my normal embouchure -- about 50 cents! I've pulled the mouthpiece out as far as I can, and also pulled the neck out as far as it can go without disabling the octave mechanism, but even then it plays about 20 cents sharp, even with a very light embouchure. I can lip it down to within about 10 cents of A440, but it's extremely hard to play that way, and I feel like I'm fighting against the horn.

I trust the tech, and when he played the horn in the shop with his mouthpiece it sounded fine, but I'm wondering why this horn is turning out to be nearly unplayable for me. Could it be my setup? I'm using a Rico B5 mouthpiece and a #3 Hemke reed (which is not yet broken in). The tech had been testing it with more of a legit setup.

I'd be grateful for any insights, since I'm completely new to the bari. Is some of this normal for a bari as compared with a tenor or an alto?

Merlin
User ID: 8931733 Aug 15th 11:26 AM
I'd recommend getting rid of the Rico piece for starters. If your aim is to play big band, try a Vandoren B75. It's got a big enough chamber to help with the tuning, but enough baffle to cut when necessary. A Hemke 3 should work OK on that, but you may find a 3.5 a better match. Better yet, try a Vandoren 3 or Alexander Classique 3. They fit the wider rails of the Vandoren piece better.

As you say in the first paragraph, you're just making the shift. Don't think of your regular alto or tenor embouchure as being "normal" for baritone. Spend some time playing long tones with the more relaxed chops. Do the m/p pitch exercise w/whatever setup you end up using. (Bari m/p should produce concert D above middle C)

Alan G.
User ID: 1348824 Aug 15th 1:07 PM
Welcome to the world of Martin Bari Players!!

You need to find the right mouthpiece. I was disappointed with an erstwhile fine playing Rico Metalite MP - because it plays too sharp. And yes - it would almost fall off the horn.

The right MP will play in tune - even if you are using a little too tight embroucher. It shouldn't "feel like I'm holding a soap bubble between my lips".

Review some other discussions on this forum for MP recommendations. In general - a large chamber with high Baffle seems to work.

I'm using an old Brilhart levelair 5*. It plays in tune - but sounds just OK. I've tried a Meyer 7m and an Otto Link 5 (need to make another trip to the local sax shop and try some more!!). Both of these played in tune, though they also are pulled out somewhat (not as bad as the Rico).

bcrowell
User ID: 1592424 Aug 15th 4:26 PM
Thanks, Merlin and Alan G.! Problem solved!

The Rico mp was just completely unplayable with this horn. I went to a store and tried a couple of large-chambered mouthpieces, and they worked fine -- they were 50 cents lower in pitch than the Rico! I ended up buying a Meyer 7m for the bari, and a matching one to replace the Berg & Larsen mp I'd been using with my tenor. The tenor had had a similar problem with pitch, but just not quite so severe.

Alan G.
User ID: 1348824 Aug 15th 5:49 PM
Cool!

Glad to help.

Bari Martin
User ID: 0624334 Aug 15th 8:17 PM
Alan; The original (Arnold Brilhart on the shank, no 'Level Air' anywhere on the mouthpiece) Level Air 5* is a legendary mouthpiece for a 'The Martin' bari, although you are right that the tone is somewhat one-dimensional. One thing for sure, no other mouthpiece ever made gives the big, booming bottom end that a Level Air does. I finally stopped using them entirely, and the bari was the last to go. At one time, I used them on alto, tenor and bari. My last bari one was an 8*. I now use a rubber Berg 130/1 on the Martin, and it gives the projection and complexity that the Brilhart couldn't, with very little lost on the low end. When I was trying to replace the Brilhart, I ran into the same sharpness problem, but only in the high notes. A metal Quantum Spoiler had a great sound, but was way sharp in the palms. I picked up the Berg on an auction, and it turned out to be 'the one'. It's a '60s 'mid-period' example. Still, it doesn't go very far on the cork, but it's manageable. Try a Rico Plasticover #3 on your 5* Level Air.

Alan G.
User ID: 1348824 Aug 16th 8:42 AM
Thanks Bari Martin - I'll look for a Berg..
And I'll try the Plasticover 3.

and yes - the levelair is the old style. It's a great piece - just not as complicated sounding as I'd like.

I've been using Hemke 2-1/2, too soft and 3's - too hard... even tried the Bootman Drill trick.

I'd tried the Plasticovers on tenor but didn't like em... time to try it out again on bari

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Aug 17th 4:55 PM
get your necks extended and your tunning problems will be solved forever. this way you can use any mpc you want.

Matt K
User ID: 9530533 Aug 18th 11:07 AM
I have a 1950 big B bari in the shop for some panel beating. I haven't played it yet (or ever owned a bari) so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about setup etc. before it's ready.

S20D- How's the red runyon hangin'?
I don't understand this neck extension biz. How were they in tune when they were new? I know there was a thread about this a while back but I dismember what it said.
Will I have this problem on my buescher?
How much do you add?
Does it not mess up the tuning in any other way?
Are there any aftermarket necks for the beast?

Bootman
User ID: 1676554 Aug 18th 6:01 PM
I would avoid ading metal to your sax neck, search for a mpc that plays intune, there are plenty out there that do. Try a Quantum without spoiler if you want lots of power and grunt on a Buescher Bari. The Custom plays well too.

Matt K
User ID: 9056633 Aug 18th 6:24 PM
Thanks Bootman. I have a quantum tenor and it's really hard for me to play. It takes a ton of air to get the reed going. Is this the norm for runyons?
I also want to know what tip opening range I should try, considering that my tenor setup is a Morgan 6 (.085) with a 3 reed.
I will try the runyons if I ever get this horn running.
What is the difference between a quantum and a custom?
Do you have to pull the mpc. out further than normal with the runyons?
Why do I ask so many questions???

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Aug 18th 6:31 PM
hey matt.yes i am still useing the red runyon custom. i just hope the cracks dont keep getting longer. this tunning issue w/bari sax and modern mpcs is a perplexing (sp?) issue. i never had tunning problems until i switched from a metal link to high baffel mpcs. i guess all the mpcs that came with the older baris were larger chamber types and worked well with them. i got my neck extended by one inch and now can play any mpc i own with tunning room to spare . it does not mess up intonation in any way . one can also have your mpc extended to get around the sharpness issue. i have a gerat tech who does both at a very reasonable price . will your buescher have this problem? i cant tell you but i suspect if you want to use a high baffel type mpc you very well might. i even had my mk6 bari neck extended to give me some extra tunning room. some have suggested this problem is all in my head so to speak but the fact is this sharpness issue keeps poping up here proves something is amiss. what mpcs are you planning to use? the runyon quantum is one mpc i know of that will work as its shank is very long which has the same effect as extending the neck. email me at super20dan @aol.com if you need that techs name and contact info. lets hope you wont need it

Matt K
User ID: 9056633 Aug 19th 10:37 PM
I hope I don't.
The first thing I'll probably do is go try a couple of Morgans and whatever else they have at a music store in the next town. If possible I would like to have a similar setup to tenor.
But I'll get whatever plays best. I don't want to use a high baffle pc. but I do want mucho cajones. Sounds like a runyon will do it if I can drive it. Here I go again...

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Aug 20th 7:05 PM
matt, i was able to use my runyon custom on a vintage conn 12m but only just barely. look for the longest shank mpc you can find. the rubber link and meyer both should work and arnt too hard to find.since you dont need high baffel you shouldnt have a problem.lets hope not but make shure you have a good accurate tunner w/you . beleive it or not weather plays a part in this also. playing outside in hot conditions (like here in fla) requires more tunning flexability (as does extreme cold )

mark m.
User ID: 1195644 Aug 22nd 8:28 PM
Hypothetically...

Would it not be possible, as an alternative (not necessarily better) to extending a neck, rather to enlarge the neck a bit and increase its volume? Has anyone tried this? It seems possible that the lesser volume of the newer mouthpiece might be compensated for by the very slightest expanding of the neck.

Geez I'd want a spare neck to play with before I did anything like that; just a theoretical question. thoughts?

bcrowell User ID: 1592424	Aug 15th 11:08 AM I have an old Martin bari (183360, says "The Martin" on it) that I picked up on e-bay and had thoroughly worked on by a respected, trusted technician. The tech put a huge amount of work into it, redoing solder joints that had been done incorrectly, straightening the tube, taking out some big dents, etc. This is my first professional-quality horn, and it's also my first time playing bari. (I have a vito tenor and a local-brand student alto that I've been playing for 10 years.) I got it back last night, but didn't have my mouthpiece with me, so I couldn't play it in the shop. I'm finding that this horn is pretty darn difficult to play, and although I'm getting used to it somewhat, I could use some advice. The main thing that surprised me was how much I had to relax my lip. I don't normally bite the reed or anything, but the degree of relaxation this horn required really amazed me. I feel like I'm holding a soap bubble between my lips and trying to keep from bursting it. If I apply what is to me a normal amount of pressure, the notes above the break from D to F# all play the harmonic a fifth above. The horn is also extremely sharp if I use my normal embouchure -- about 50 cents! I've pulled the mouthpiece out as far as I can, and also pulled the neck out as far as it can go without disabling the octave mechanism, but even then it plays about 20 cents sharp, even with a very light embouchure. I can lip it down to within about 10 cents of A440, but it's extremely hard to play that way, and I feel like I'm fighting against the horn. I trust the tech, and when he played the horn in the shop with his mouthpiece it sounded fine, but I'm wondering why this horn is turning out to be nearly unplayable for me. Could it be my setup? I'm using a Rico B5 mouthpiece and a #3 Hemke reed (which is not yet broken in). The tech had been testing it with more of a legit setup. I'd be grateful for any insights, since I'm completely new to the bari. Is some of this normal for a bari as compared with a tenor or an alto?
Merlin User ID: 8931733	Aug 15th 11:26 AM I'd recommend getting rid of the Rico piece for starters. If your aim is to play big band, try a Vandoren B75. It's got a big enough chamber to help with the tuning, but enough baffle to cut when necessary. A Hemke 3 should work OK on that, but you may find a 3.5 a better match. Better yet, try a Vandoren 3 or Alexander Classique 3. They fit the wider rails of the Vandoren piece better. As you say in the first paragraph, you're just making the shift. Don't think of your regular alto or tenor embouchure as being "normal" for baritone. Spend some time playing long tones with the more relaxed chops. Do the m/p pitch exercise w/whatever setup you end up using. (Bari m/p should produce concert D above middle C)
Alan G. User ID: 1348824	Aug 15th 1:07 PM Welcome to the world of Martin Bari Players!! You need to find the right mouthpiece. I was disappointed with an erstwhile fine playing Rico Metalite MP - because it plays too sharp. And yes - it would almost fall off the horn. The right MP will play in tune - even if you are using a little too tight embroucher. It shouldn't "feel like I'm holding a soap bubble between my lips". Review some other discussions on this forum for MP recommendations. In general - a large chamber with high Baffle seems to work. I'm using an old Brilhart levelair 5*. It plays in tune - but sounds just OK. I've tried a Meyer 7m and an Otto Link 5 (need to make another trip to the local sax shop and try some more!!). Both of these played in tune, though they also are pulled out somewhat (not as bad as the Rico).
bcrowell User ID: 1592424	Aug 15th 4:26 PM Thanks, Merlin and Alan G.! Problem solved! The Rico mp was just completely unplayable with this horn. I went to a store and tried a couple of large-chambered mouthpieces, and they worked fine -- they were 50 cents lower in pitch than the Rico! I ended up buying a Meyer 7m for the bari, and a matching one to replace the Berg & Larsen mp I'd been using with my tenor. The tenor had had a similar problem with pitch, but just not quite so severe.
Alan G. User ID: 1348824	Aug 15th 5:49 PM Cool! Glad to help.
Bari Martin User ID: 0624334	Aug 15th 8:17 PM Alan; The original (Arnold Brilhart on the shank, no 'Level Air' anywhere on the mouthpiece) Level Air 5* is a legendary mouthpiece for a 'The Martin' bari, although you are right that the tone is somewhat one-dimensional. One thing for sure, no other mouthpiece ever made gives the big, booming bottom end that a Level Air does. I finally stopped using them entirely, and the bari was the last to go. At one time, I used them on alto, tenor and bari. My last bari one was an 8. I now use a rubber Berg 130/1 on the Martin, and it gives the projection and complexity that the Brilhart couldn't, with very little lost on the low end. When I was trying to replace the Brilhart, I ran into the same sharpness problem, but only in the high notes. A metal Quantum Spoiler had a great sound, but was way sharp in the palms. I picked up the Berg on an auction, and it turned out to be 'the one'. It's a '60s 'mid-period' example. Still, it doesn't go very far on the cork, but it's manageable. Try a Rico Plasticover #3 on your 5 Level Air.
Alan G. User ID: 1348824	Aug 16th 8:42 AM Thanks Bari Martin - I'll look for a Berg.. And I'll try the Plasticover 3. and yes - the levelair is the old style. It's a great piece - just not as complicated sounding as I'd like. I've been using Hemke 2-1/2, too soft and 3's - too hard... even tried the Bootman Drill trick. I'd tried the Plasticovers on tenor but didn't like em... time to try it out again on bari
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Aug 17th 4:55 PM get your necks extended and your tunning problems will be solved forever. this way you can use any mpc you want.
Matt K User ID: 9530533	Aug 18th 11:07 AM I have a 1950 big B bari in the shop for some panel beating. I haven't played it yet (or ever owned a bari) so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about setup etc. before it's ready. S20D- How's the red runyon hangin'? I don't understand this neck extension biz. How were they in tune when they were new? I know there was a thread about this a while back but I dismember what it said. Will I have this problem on my buescher? How much do you add? Does it not mess up the tuning in any other way? Are there any aftermarket necks for the beast?
Bootman User ID: 1676554	Aug 18th 6:01 PM I would avoid ading metal to your sax neck, search for a mpc that plays intune, there are plenty out there that do. Try a Quantum without spoiler if you want lots of power and grunt on a Buescher Bari. The Custom plays well too.
Matt K User ID: 9056633	Aug 18th 6:24 PM Thanks Bootman. I have a quantum tenor and it's really hard for me to play. It takes a ton of air to get the reed going. Is this the norm for runyons? I also want to know what tip opening range I should try, considering that my tenor setup is a Morgan 6 (.085) with a 3 reed. I will try the runyons if I ever get this horn running. What is the difference between a quantum and a custom? Do you have to pull the mpc. out further than normal with the runyons? Why do I ask so many questions???
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Aug 18th 6:31 PM hey matt.yes i am still useing the red runyon custom. i just hope the cracks dont keep getting longer. this tunning issue w/bari sax and modern mpcs is a perplexing (sp?) issue. i never had tunning problems until i switched from a metal link to high baffel mpcs. i guess all the mpcs that came with the older baris were larger chamber types and worked well with them. i got my neck extended by one inch and now can play any mpc i own with tunning room to spare . it does not mess up intonation in any way . one can also have your mpc extended to get around the sharpness issue. i have a gerat tech who does both at a very reasonable price . will your buescher have this problem? i cant tell you but i suspect if you want to use a high baffel type mpc you very well might. i even had my mk6 bari neck extended to give me some extra tunning room. some have suggested this problem is all in my head so to speak but the fact is this sharpness issue keeps poping up here proves something is amiss. what mpcs are you planning to use? the runyon quantum is one mpc i know of that will work as its shank is very long which has the same effect as extending the neck. email me at super20dan @aol.com if you need that techs name and contact info. lets hope you wont need it
Matt K User ID: 9056633	Aug 19th 10:37 PM I hope I don't. The first thing I'll probably do is go try a couple of Morgans and whatever else they have at a music store in the next town. If possible I would like to have a similar setup to tenor. But I'll get whatever plays best. I don't want to use a high baffle pc. but I do want mucho cajones. Sounds like a runyon will do it if I can drive it. Here I go again...
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Aug 20th 7:05 PM matt, i was able to use my runyon custom on a vintage conn 12m but only just barely. look for the longest shank mpc you can find. the rubber link and meyer both should work and arnt too hard to find.since you dont need high baffel you shouldnt have a problem.lets hope not but make shure you have a good accurate tunner w/you . beleive it or not weather plays a part in this also. playing outside in hot conditions (like here in fla) requires more tunning flexability (as does extreme cold )
mark m. User ID: 1195644	Aug 22nd 8:28 PM Hypothetically... Would it not be possible, as an alternative (not necessarily better) to extending a neck, rather to enlarge the neck a bit and increase its volume? Has anyone tried this? It seems possible that the lesser volume of the newer mouthpiece might be compensated for by the very slightest expanding of the neck. Geez I'd want a spare neck to play with before I did anything like that; just a theoretical question. thoughts?