Sax on the Web Forum

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / My New 236K Buescher TrueTone Bari

Jerry K.
User ID: 9809413 Sep 27th 6:01 PM
Hey All, I just scored a totally original 236,000 TrueTone Bari and I'm darned excited about it. This horn is dead original with the white pads, snap in resos, silver plating (near 100%) the works. The amzing thing to me is this horn doesn't have so much as a ding on it anywhere! I'm pretty sure this horn was put away nearly 70 years ago and never touched since.

Beyond sharing my excitement, I want to solicit input on the overhaul and setup for this horn. I have never played Bari so I am clueless as to a good mpc to start with on this beast. I play a Runyon 8 on soprano and a 6 or 7 on alto and tenor. I will "absolutely" stay with original snap in resonators but would like input on the ideal pads for this horn. Info like thickness, metal backed or not, and pad type would all be really helpful. I have some of Ferree's pads for snap in resos but I've understand that they are thicker than they should be. Is this true for bari as well? Thanks!

WW2
User ID: 9510053 Sep 27th 6:47 PM
As for a mouthpiece, these beasts need LARGE chambers and don't really like a lot of baffle.

I use a Le Blanc large chambered mouthpiece with a Rovner Dark ligature. It really blasts the modern baritone saxes with a hugh sound!

Jerry K.
User ID: 9809413 Sep 27th 7:06 PM
WW2, what is the model and size of your Leblanc mpc? I've got 2 vintage pieces that came with the sax it and I'll check those out though I expect them to be too closed off. Every other vintage piece I have tried for soprano, alto and tenor have had a tiny tip opening and a pretty small sound.

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Sep 27th 7:22 PM
i recommend a rubber link. dont buy any modern mpc unless it has a very long shank or it will be hanging off the end of the neck always take a tuner with you when trying out mpcs. tunning is an issue with these horns and modern mpcs.

Jerry K.
User ID: 9809413 Sep 27th 7:27 PM
How old a rubber link would you recommend?

WW2
User ID: 9510053 Sep 27th 7:39 PM
I think the Le Blanc is a B6 or B7. It is hugh and took a lot of effort to get a properly fitting ligature. I don't know the actual tip opening measurement, but it looks like I could drive a small car through the opening.

I will try to remember to look up the specs on the Le Blanc when I get home tonight.

Of course, I also play Tenor, C-Melody, Alto, Bb-Soprano, and C-Soprano so like a more closed tip for my bari sax. Anyway, you could always get someone like Jon Van Wei to open it up for you if you want.

I have no problems with it "hanging off the cork". If the mouthpiece hangs off the cork when tuning it is mostly because it has a small chamber. The original mouthpiece I tried was a modern "stock" mouthpiece with a small chamber. I couldn't even get a decent note out of the sax with that modern piece, yet the modern piece plays great on modern Selmer low A baritones used at the local high school.

Jerry K.
User ID: 9809413 Sep 27th 7:54 PM
"Anyway, you could always get someone like Jon Van Wei to open it up for you if you want."

WW2, that's a great idea. I have a vintage Woodwind piece I like on my Martin Tenor that I will probably send Jon Van Wei to open up. I could just send him the bari piece at the same time. One of the bari pieces I have is marked Conn and has an eagle on it, the other looks like a newer Martin piece. The Conn piece is one fat mouthpiece! I'm sure none of my Rovner ligs will fit. Man, those guys are getting rich on me!

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Sep 27th 9:15 PM
any rubber link will work fine .they have a very long shank. new or old

Jerry K.
User ID: 9809413 Sep 29th 9:35 AM
I replaced a couple broke springs yesterday and gave the old girl a play. Very cool. Plays top to bottom with some considerable effort from low D and below. Definately has some leaks in the lower stack as easily seen with my leak light.

I'm still interested in pad recommendations. I can't wait to get started on the overhaul. My daughters can't wait to see the "after" on this one! Right now it's dark and dingy looking but I know she'll be a beauty when she's totally cleaned and polished!

Anyone have experience with the Protec coffin or contoured cases? I have an aversion to polishing and overhauling a sax then putting it in an old smelly case.

Super20dan, I'll be on the lookout for a rubber link. On the subject of long shank pieces, the Martin piece in the case is pretty long. This makes me ask, how do you find a comfortable playing position? It seems like you need to play with the sax pushed away from your body with the long mouthpiece otherwise it goes in your mouth at the wrong angle. Sorry about all the questions but how much of the mpc goes in your mouth on bari?

MusicMedic
User ID: 0234554 Sep 29th 10:08 AM
Hi Jerry,
Sounds like you got a great horn! I was looking at one like it recently...May be the same one.

I recently did a restoration on a Buescher True Tone Bari similar to the one you have. The Buescher Replacement pads on the market will work fine. The ones I used are available on my website. The pads will likely be very tight in the pad cups so, you will not want to shellac them in. They are not too thick if no Shellac is used. They should be OK.

Having done several of these and studying the intonation deficiencies/tendencies of Bueschers in general, you will need to be sure that the pads heights are very to allow for proper venting. I imagine they are already quite open.

Some things that I did to my most recent Buescher Bari.

I added a front F.

I added an adjustable C bar to bring down the pitch of high C#. This tone is often sharp on the Bueschers, although not always on the Bari's, it was on the one I did.

A fair amount of tuning was necessary to get it playing in top shape. I have found that tuning certain tones on the Bueschers allows them to speak more freely throughout the range.

I think the Buescher True Tone is one the fullest sounding Bari's I have played! I bet you will love this horn, Congratulations!

I did use the MusicMedic Buescher replacement pads and they sound just great. The ones available from Ferrees will work equally as well. Be sure to take the time to buff or polish the resonators.

paulwl
User ID: 9272753 Sep 29th 2:17 PM
>> you will need to be sure that the pads heights are very to allow for proper venting. <<

Without giving away trade secrets or anything, Curt...very *what*? :-)

MusicMedic
User ID: 0756324 Sep 29th 2:41 PM
Very *Correct* Paul!

MusicMedic
User ID: 0756324 Sep 29th 2:42 PM
Sorry, I just meant to say that the pad heights should be open (Much more than modern horns to allow proper venting :)

paulwl
User ID: 9418933 Sep 30th 1:59 PM
How much taper should there be, roughly, from upper stack to lower? My True-Tones seem to play best if G is open but A-C gradually less open.

I would think the less open you are at the top, the less need there is for a C bar.

How much of the pad height problem depends on the chocie of mouthpiece?

My closet mint 1930 True-Tone C melody probably has its original factory adjustments (altho a few have gone out). It's actually pretty closely set in the upper stack, except for G of course. The lower stack and bell notes are quite open.

MusicMedic
User ID: 3264634 Oct 1st 9:12 AM
Paul,
The lists for pad heights that get sent around are pretty good. Like you, I have a True Tone that was just never played. It's amazing. I was able to measure the pad heights and such. The thing is, you set it up with the pad heights from the factory and then the adjustment happens.

The important thing to know is why the heights are what they are and not just what they are. Your G pad for instance.

If every pad were a "stay open" pad like the ones on the bottom stack, things would be much different. Once you run into a pad that stays closed, this (acoustically) changes everything. The tone hole above it needs to be bigger, and the pad needs to vent more to compensate for the lack of venting in the next tone hole. So, your G key is above the 'Stay closed' G# key. This means the G tone hole needs to be much bigger and pad needs to vent more. If you know why the key heights are what they are, you will have a fighting chance when you try to adjust them.

>>I would think the less open you are at the top, the less need there is for a C bar.>>
With a Buescher, if you close the top, the C will get this crazy rattle (although I have a different fix for that, it is best to keep the heights open) and intonation will get freaky. Remember that the C Bar is to lower the octave C#. All other variables aside, closing the top hand would bring the top C# down but it will also lower the middle C#. Among other things...

>>How much of the pad height problem depends on the choice of mouthpiece?>>

This is a hard one to answer. Let’s assume you are saying "What if a player changes mouthpieces but stays within the acoustical boundaries of the instrument?"
With that, what about a Jazz piece Vs. a Buescher Stock. Lowering the key heights will make the instrument stuffier and a bright mouthpiece may compensate for this. But, intonation will suffer. Basically there seems to be a "best" pad height for any instrument. Then, minor adjustments can be made for the player. Is that Clear?

paulwl
User ID: 9272753 Oct 2nd 8:15 PM
I agree that overall, the T-Ts play most freely and fully with open venting. I do however think there's a range of workable solutions within those acoustical boundaries. It's hard to imagine so many people gravitating to Buescher if the horns lacked versatility.

Jerry K. User ID: 9809413	Sep 27th 6:01 PM Hey All, I just scored a totally original 236,000 TrueTone Bari and I'm darned excited about it. This horn is dead original with the white pads, snap in resos, silver plating (near 100%) the works. The amzing thing to me is this horn doesn't have so much as a ding on it anywhere! I'm pretty sure this horn was put away nearly 70 years ago and never touched since. Beyond sharing my excitement, I want to solicit input on the overhaul and setup for this horn. I have never played Bari so I am clueless as to a good mpc to start with on this beast. I play a Runyon 8 on soprano and a 6 or 7 on alto and tenor. I will "absolutely" stay with original snap in resonators but would like input on the ideal pads for this horn. Info like thickness, metal backed or not, and pad type would all be really helpful. I have some of Ferree's pads for snap in resos but I've understand that they are thicker than they should be. Is this true for bari as well? Thanks!
WW2 User ID: 9510053	Sep 27th 6:47 PM As for a mouthpiece, these beasts need LARGE chambers and don't really like a lot of baffle. I use a Le Blanc large chambered mouthpiece with a Rovner Dark ligature. It really blasts the modern baritone saxes with a hugh sound!
Jerry K. User ID: 9809413	Sep 27th 7:06 PM WW2, what is the model and size of your Leblanc mpc? I've got 2 vintage pieces that came with the sax it and I'll check those out though I expect them to be too closed off. Every other vintage piece I have tried for soprano, alto and tenor have had a tiny tip opening and a pretty small sound.
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Sep 27th 7:22 PM i recommend a rubber link. dont buy any modern mpc unless it has a very long shank or it will be hanging off the end of the neck always take a tuner with you when trying out mpcs. tunning is an issue with these horns and modern mpcs.
Jerry K. User ID: 9809413	Sep 27th 7:27 PM How old a rubber link would you recommend?
WW2 User ID: 9510053	Sep 27th 7:39 PM I think the Le Blanc is a B6 or B7. It is hugh and took a lot of effort to get a properly fitting ligature. I don't know the actual tip opening measurement, but it looks like I could drive a small car through the opening. I will try to remember to look up the specs on the Le Blanc when I get home tonight. Of course, I also play Tenor, C-Melody, Alto, Bb-Soprano, and C-Soprano so like a more closed tip for my bari sax. Anyway, you could always get someone like Jon Van Wei to open it up for you if you want. I have no problems with it "hanging off the cork". If the mouthpiece hangs off the cork when tuning it is mostly because it has a small chamber. The original mouthpiece I tried was a modern "stock" mouthpiece with a small chamber. I couldn't even get a decent note out of the sax with that modern piece, yet the modern piece plays great on modern Selmer low A baritones used at the local high school.
Jerry K. User ID: 9809413	Sep 27th 7:54 PM "Anyway, you could always get someone like Jon Van Wei to open it up for you if you want." WW2, that's a great idea. I have a vintage Woodwind piece I like on my Martin Tenor that I will probably send Jon Van Wei to open up. I could just send him the bari piece at the same time. One of the bari pieces I have is marked Conn and has an eagle on it, the other looks like a newer Martin piece. The Conn piece is one fat mouthpiece! I'm sure none of my Rovner ligs will fit. Man, those guys are getting rich on me!
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Sep 27th 9:15 PM any rubber link will work fine .they have a very long shank. new or old
Jerry K. User ID: 9809413	Sep 29th 9:35 AM I replaced a couple broke springs yesterday and gave the old girl a play. Very cool. Plays top to bottom with some considerable effort from low D and below. Definately has some leaks in the lower stack as easily seen with my leak light. I'm still interested in pad recommendations. I can't wait to get started on the overhaul. My daughters can't wait to see the "after" on this one! Right now it's dark and dingy looking but I know she'll be a beauty when she's totally cleaned and polished! Anyone have experience with the Protec coffin or contoured cases? I have an aversion to polishing and overhauling a sax then putting it in an old smelly case. Super20dan, I'll be on the lookout for a rubber link. On the subject of long shank pieces, the Martin piece in the case is pretty long. This makes me ask, how do you find a comfortable playing position? It seems like you need to play with the sax pushed away from your body with the long mouthpiece otherwise it goes in your mouth at the wrong angle. Sorry about all the questions but how much of the mpc goes in your mouth on bari?
MusicMedic User ID: 0234554	Sep 29th 10:08 AM Hi Jerry, Sounds like you got a great horn! I was looking at one like it recently...May be the same one. I recently did a restoration on a Buescher True Tone Bari similar to the one you have. The Buescher Replacement pads on the market will work fine. The ones I used are available on my website. The pads will likely be very tight in the pad cups so, you will not want to shellac them in. They are not too thick if no Shellac is used. They should be OK. Having done several of these and studying the intonation deficiencies/tendencies of Bueschers in general, you will need to be sure that the pads heights are very to allow for proper venting. I imagine they are already quite open. Some things that I did to my most recent Buescher Bari. I added a front F. I added an adjustable C bar to bring down the pitch of high C#. This tone is often sharp on the Bueschers, although not always on the Bari's, it was on the one I did. A fair amount of tuning was necessary to get it playing in top shape. I have found that tuning certain tones on the Bueschers allows them to speak more freely throughout the range. I think the Buescher True Tone is one the fullest sounding Bari's I have played! I bet you will love this horn, Congratulations! I did use the MusicMedic Buescher replacement pads and they sound just great. The ones available from Ferrees will work equally as well. Be sure to take the time to buff or polish the resonators.
paulwl User ID: 9272753	Sep 29th 2:17 PM >> you will need to be sure that the pads heights are very to allow for proper venting. << Without giving away trade secrets or anything, Curt...very what? :-)
MusicMedic User ID: 0756324	Sep 29th 2:41 PM *Very Correct* Paul!**
MusicMedic User ID: 0756324	Sep 29th 2:42 PM Sorry, I just meant to say that the pad heights should be open (Much more than modern horns to allow proper venting :)
paulwl User ID: 9418933	Sep 30th 1:59 PM How much taper should there be, roughly, from upper stack to lower? My True-Tones seem to play best if G is open but A-C gradually less open. I would think the less open you are at the top, the less need there is for a C bar. How much of the pad height problem depends on the chocie of mouthpiece? My closet mint 1930 True-Tone C melody probably has its original factory adjustments (altho a few have gone out). It's actually pretty closely set in the upper stack, except for G of course. The lower stack and bell notes are quite open.
MusicMedic User ID: 3264634	Oct 1st 9:12 AM Paul, The lists for pad heights that get sent around are pretty good. Like you, I have a True Tone that was just never played. It's amazing. I was able to measure the pad heights and such. The thing is, you set it up with the pad heights from the factory and then the adjustment happens. The important thing to know is why the heights are what they are and not just what they are. Your G pad for instance. If every pad were a "stay open" pad like the ones on the bottom stack, things would be much different. Once you run into a pad that stays closed, this (acoustically) changes everything. The tone hole above it needs to be bigger, and the pad needs to vent more to compensate for the lack of venting in the next tone hole. So, your G key is above the 'Stay closed' G# key. This means the G tone hole needs to be much bigger and pad needs to vent more. If you know why the key heights are what they are, you will have a fighting chance when you try to adjust them. >>I would think the less open you are at the top, the less need there is for a C bar.>> With a Buescher, if you close the top, the C will get this crazy rattle (although I have a different fix for that, it is best to keep the heights open) and intonation will get freaky. Remember that the C Bar is to lower the octave C#. All other variables aside, closing the top hand would bring the top C# down but it will also lower the middle C#. Among other things... >>How much of the pad height problem depends on the choice of mouthpiece?>> This is a hard one to answer. Let’s assume you are saying "What if a player changes mouthpieces but stays within the acoustical boundaries of the instrument?" With that, what about a Jazz piece Vs. a Buescher Stock. Lowering the key heights will make the instrument stuffier and a bright mouthpiece may compensate for this. But, intonation will suffer. Basically there seems to be a "best" pad height for any instrument. Then, minor adjustments can be made for the player. Is that Clear?
paulwl User ID: 9272753	Oct 2nd 8:15 PM I agree that overall, the T-Ts play most freely and fully with open venting. I do however think there's a range of workable solutions within those acoustical boundaries. It's hard to imagine so many people gravitating to Buescher if the horns lacked versatility.