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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Do I NEED a Lo A.....!?

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Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 May 4th 7:21 PM
AAAAAHHHHHH.....The question of the ages..? Several Broken windows and numerous arrests, have proved to me once and for all the POWER (and necessity) of the infamous Low A, the crowd went absolutely freakin' BERSERK..I had to RUN for my life....! (it was THAT good last nite..)

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 May 7th 3:27 PM
I play several low A's every time I perform on bari. Most of them are written in the charts. A few during solos. The same usage can not be said of low B flutes and low C bass clarinets.

RS
User ID: 9523443 May 7th 3:50 PM
I play a low C bass and haven't had any adjustment problems with the extended range except for a weak spring when I first got it. The extra keywork took a couple of months to master but now feels very comfortable. To me the extra three notes on the bottom are worth the extra expense and slightly larger size (compared to trhe low Eb bass).

Bootman
User ID: 1676554 May 7th 4:55 PM
I have never used a Low C Bass, always the Eb and have yet to really come across any real problems by only having an Eb. An extension would be nice but for the limited times I would need it, it makes no financial sense to buy one. My old Selmer is doing fine thanks.

I have found that if you have a Low A bari you use the low A and if you don't then you use the Bb. The extra volume and presence is worth the lack of a low A for my own Bari work. If I was doing more Bari work then I would consider chasing a new Keilwerth low A, I have just on sold my mk vi low A. It wasn't loud enough and someone offered me a good price on the horn.

super20dan
User ID: 7705853 May 7th 6:09 PM
when i was playing bari for a living i used both.dave s is right about many later big band charts call for low a . i still have 2 baris .selmer mk6 low a and of course my famous conn eating super20.

manofsteel
User ID: 6110683 May 7th 10:14 PM
Hey Jason,

I just got a copy of the 3 baritone band plays Mulligan and in one of the pictures, it appears Nick and Ron are playing a low A horn. Kind of strange that in a tribute to Mullingan there would be need for a low A.

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 May 8th 8:44 AM
2 out of 3 indeed.

RS
User ID: 9523443 May 8th 11:37 AM
I'll try to answer mark m.'s question about getting a bari sax-like sound out of the bass clarinet. Getting the bass clarinet to approach the power of the bari sax is one of my main goals on the instrument. Here is my approach: I believe that number one you've got to use a very open piece. I use a Charles Bay piece that he made to my specifications that has a .102" tip opening. This piece is surprisingly free-blowing considering it's size. The largest pieces available without having one custom made are in the .080" range. This is much too small. (And I'll probably hear from someone who says he gets a huge sound from his C* but I won't believe it.) If you're a serious bass clarinet player and are determined to get a big, bari sax-like sound from your bass then call Charlie Bay (818-706-3309) and have him make you a piece in the .090" to .105" range. Don't putz around with the little dinky pieces available from WW/BW and other mail-order companies. Once you've got the right piece the next step is finding the right reed. I use cane reeds on all of my horns except bass clarinet. Here the synthetics work pretty well; at least the Fibracells, anyway, which is what I use. They sound and respond pretty well on bass and are much less prone to squeaking and chirping than cane reeds. So I use and reccomend the Fibracells (on bass clarinet only) but cane will work too if you don't mind the hassle. The critical factor is strength. I reccomend using a reed that's a little harder than what might seem comfortable. But this will allow you to dig in harder, which is important in producing a big sound in the clarion register, a section of the horn that can be difficult to get to project. And this brings up the third step in getting a big sound on bass: lung power. The set-up I reccomend--large tip piece, fairly hard reed--will require alot of wind. There's no way around this. No free lunch. The set-up will demand alot of physical exertion and a good bit of stamina. But this is the way to get a big sound out of the bass. I'm starting to get a pretty big sound myself. With my Selmer 37 bass, my Bay mouthpiece (and I recently ordered another one for backup), and the Fibracell Mediums I believe the only limit to how much power I can get is my own lung power. And I've been cutting back on cigarettes (down to five or six a day from a pack a day) and excercising regularly (running and biking) to strengthen my pipes. Getting the bass clarinet to approach the power of the bari sax is possible, I believe, but it requires the right set-up and alot of determination and discipline. [This post might be more appropriate in one of the bass clarinet threads in the "Doubling" section but mark m. asked the question on this thread so I decided to respond here.]

jmarshall83
User ID: 0673084 May 8th 11:56 AM
actually Nick played a low Bb Keilwerth in black nickle and Gary played a low Bb conn and Ronnie played a low A mark VI on the 3 bari cd

Screech
User ID: 9753653 May 8th 11:59 AM
I'm listening to that CD right now. Trying to get psyched up for practice tonight.

Dave Spiegelthal
User ID: 1781064 May 8th 12:06 PM
RS has a good approach. I'd venture an opinion slightly at odds with what he says, that is, it's not necessary to use a very wide-open mouthpiece to get a big (or, more accurately, projecting) sound. You reach a point of diminishing returns with mouthpiece opening (on sax as well as the clarinets) where opening the tip further just increases the amount of 'wasted air' and de-centers the sound, without appreciably increasing volume (and may actually reduce projection). I've found with most of the Bay mouthpieces I've tried that they have a rather 'hard' sound and lack a good center, so that they seem loud to the player, but don't actually project well to the audience. If you listen to the best classical players, they have a tone quality with a very dark, focused center that gives them tremendous projection even at pianissimo volume levels, and they do this with mouthpieces that are not very open. Just my two euros' worth.......

RS
User ID: 9523443 May 8th 1:30 PM
I won't argue with my friend (and D.C. area homeboy)Dave except to say that my approach is more of a jazz approach than classical. The Bay piece does have a harder edgier tone than other pieces I've played (plus I use a Power-tone baffle in it for even more edge) but the playability and response of this piece make up for it (at least for me). Like I said, it's a very easy blowing piece considering it's tip opening. But if I were to devote myself to classical playing I would follow Dave's approach and use a considerably smaller tipped piece with probably a somewhat harder reed, and would strive for a darker richer tone rather than brute power.

RS
User ID: 9523443 May 8th 1:40 PM
And one other thing: I agree with Dave's opinion regarding the point of diminishing returns of large tip openings but that point varies widely from player to player. Large tip openings work for me but I don't think the pieces I use are too extreme (.057" on clarinet, .086" on alto sax, .145" on bari, and .102" on bass clarinet).

Dave Spiegelthal
User ID: 1781064 May 8th 2:19 PM
RS,
Howdy, now I know who you are! All your points are well taken. And at the risk of being branded a hypocrite, I'll say that all my jazz sax mouthpieces are very open (tenor is about a .140", bari about a .150").

What do they say, "people who play glass mouthpieces shouldn't throw stones"? ---- I play refaced (opened, I admit) crystal Pomaricos on both soprano and bass clarinets........

RS
User ID: 9523443 May 8th 3:37 PM
Dave--.140" and .150" are good and open pieces but I wouldn't consider them extreme. I think once you get past .160" or so on a bari or tenor piece you will have entered extreme territory. But I've heard of people using pieces in this range. Plas Johnson and Ernie Watts are a couple of players that I have heard use extremely open pieces. Charlie Bay told me he has made bass clarinet pieces in the .120"-.130" range for some cat in Germany. Now that sounds like pushing the envelope.

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 May 8th 3:47 PM
jmarshall83: all we have to go by is Nick's low A in the picture. I know he owned both, and it would not surprise me if he played different ones on different tracks. But the picture shows him playing a low A sax, as do most of his albums.

jmarshall83
User ID: 0422394 May 8th 11:54 PM
The pic you refer to is the promotional pic that he sends everybody who wants one.
one rule that I got from nick himself: If you can see the left hand of the player then it is a low Bb horn . Look at the pic from the actual session which is also painted on the cover.

Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 May 9th 2:03 AM
Dave S hit it back a few posts.. the Lo A IS great when used in the Blues/Rock guitar key context, nuthin like it..For improv Jazz & standards work I could live without it fer sure, I learned to play Bari on Bb's and never missed it til I had the A and realized the the difference and power available with that one single note..

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 May 9th 10:45 AM
I'll look again. I was pretty sure the "left hand" test showed Nick on low A when he was playing with the guys in the studio pic.

T.S.
User ID: 8882983 May 9th 11:36 AM
I have both a low A yani 880 and a Conn 12M. I love the Conn for a solo voice (I love that Conn rasp), but when doing R & B gigs last year the Yani's focused, cutting sound with that low A burp came in very handy. I like both horns a lot and am glad to have both.

Back 20 Messages Next 20 Messages

Cashsax User ID: 9014973	May 4th 7:21 PM AAAAAHHHHHH.....The question of the ages..? Several Broken windows and numerous arrests, have proved to me once and for all the POWER (and necessity) of the infamous Low A, the crowd went absolutely freakin' BERSERK..I had to RUN for my life....! (it was THAT good last nite..)
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	May 7th 3:27 PM I play several low A's every time I perform on bari. Most of them are written in the charts. A few during solos. The same usage can not be said of low B flutes and low C bass clarinets.
RS User ID: 9523443	May 7th 3:50 PM I play a low C bass and haven't had any adjustment problems with the extended range except for a weak spring when I first got it. The extra keywork took a couple of months to master but now feels very comfortable. To me the extra three notes on the bottom are worth the extra expense and slightly larger size (compared to trhe low Eb bass).
Bootman User ID: 1676554	May 7th 4:55 PM I have never used a Low C Bass, always the Eb and have yet to really come across any real problems by only having an Eb. An extension would be nice but for the limited times I would need it, it makes no financial sense to buy one. My old Selmer is doing fine thanks. I have found that if you have a Low A bari you use the low A and if you don't then you use the Bb. The extra volume and presence is worth the lack of a low A for my own Bari work. If I was doing more Bari work then I would consider chasing a new Keilwerth low A, I have just on sold my mk vi low A. It wasn't loud enough and someone offered me a good price on the horn.
super20dan User ID: 7705853	May 7th 6:09 PM when i was playing bari for a living i used both.dave s is right about many later big band charts call for low a . i still have 2 baris .selmer mk6 low a and of course my famous conn eating super20.
manofsteel User ID: 6110683	May 7th 10:14 PM Hey Jason, I just got a copy of the 3 baritone band plays Mulligan and in one of the pictures, it appears Nick and Ron are playing a low A horn. Kind of strange that in a tribute to Mullingan there would be need for a low A.
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	May 8th 8:44 AM 2 out of 3 indeed.
RS User ID: 9523443	May 8th 11:37 AM I'll try to answer mark m.'s question about getting a bari sax-like sound out of the bass clarinet. Getting the bass clarinet to approach the power of the bari sax is one of my main goals on the instrument. Here is my approach: I believe that number one you've got to use a very open piece. I use a Charles Bay piece that he made to my specifications that has a .102" tip opening. This piece is surprisingly free-blowing considering it's size. The largest pieces available without having one custom made are in the .080" range. This is much too small. (And I'll probably hear from someone who says he gets a huge sound from his C* but I won't believe it.) If you're a serious bass clarinet player and are determined to get a big, bari sax-like sound from your bass then call Charlie Bay (818-706-3309) and have him make you a piece in the .090" to .105" range. Don't putz around with the little dinky pieces available from WW/BW and other mail-order companies. Once you've got the right piece the next step is finding the right reed. I use cane reeds on all of my horns except bass clarinet. Here the synthetics work pretty well; at least the Fibracells, anyway, which is what I use. They sound and respond pretty well on bass and are much less prone to squeaking and chirping than cane reeds. So I use and reccomend the Fibracells (on bass clarinet only) but cane will work too if you don't mind the hassle. The critical factor is strength. I reccomend using a reed that's a little harder than what might seem comfortable. But this will allow you to dig in harder, which is important in producing a big sound in the clarion register, a section of the horn that can be difficult to get to project. And this brings up the third step in getting a big sound on bass: lung power. The set-up I reccomend--large tip piece, fairly hard reed--will require alot of wind. There's no way around this. No free lunch. The set-up will demand alot of physical exertion and a good bit of stamina. But this is the way to get a big sound out of the bass. I'm starting to get a pretty big sound myself. With my Selmer 37 bass, my Bay mouthpiece (and I recently ordered another one for backup), and the Fibracell Mediums I believe the only limit to how much power I can get is my own lung power. And I've been cutting back on cigarettes (down to five or six a day from a pack a day) and excercising regularly (running and biking) to strengthen my pipes. Getting the bass clarinet to approach the power of the bari sax is possible, I believe, but it requires the right set-up and alot of determination and discipline. [This post might be more appropriate in one of the bass clarinet threads in the "Doubling" section but mark m. asked the question on this thread so I decided to respond here.]
jmarshall83 User ID: 0673084	May 8th 11:56 AM actually Nick played a low Bb Keilwerth in black nickle and Gary played a low Bb conn and Ronnie played a low A mark VI on the 3 bari cd
Screech User ID: 9753653	May 8th 11:59 AM I'm listening to that CD right now. Trying to get psyched up for practice tonight.
Dave Spiegelthal User ID: 1781064	May 8th 12:06 PM RS has a good approach. I'd venture an opinion slightly at odds with what he says, that is, it's not necessary to use a very wide-open mouthpiece to get a big (or, more accurately, projecting) sound. You reach a point of diminishing returns with mouthpiece opening (on sax as well as the clarinets) where opening the tip further just increases the amount of 'wasted air' and de-centers the sound, without appreciably increasing volume (and may actually reduce projection). I've found with most of the Bay mouthpieces I've tried that they have a rather 'hard' sound and lack a good center, so that they seem loud to the player, but don't actually project well to the audience. If you listen to the best classical players, they have a tone quality with a very dark, focused center that gives them tremendous projection even at pianissimo volume levels, and they do this with mouthpieces that are not very open. Just my two euros' worth.......
RS User ID: 9523443	May 8th 1:30 PM I won't argue with my friend (and D.C. area homeboy)Dave except to say that my approach is more of a jazz approach than classical. The Bay piece does have a harder edgier tone than other pieces I've played (plus I use a Power-tone baffle in it for even more edge) but the playability and response of this piece make up for it (at least for me). Like I said, it's a very easy blowing piece considering it's tip opening. But if I were to devote myself to classical playing I would follow Dave's approach and use a considerably smaller tipped piece with probably a somewhat harder reed, and would strive for a darker richer tone rather than brute power.
RS User ID: 9523443	May 8th 1:40 PM And one other thing: I agree with Dave's opinion regarding the point of diminishing returns of large tip openings but that point varies widely from player to player. Large tip openings work for me but I don't think the pieces I use are too extreme (.057" on clarinet, .086" on alto sax, .145" on bari, and .102" on bass clarinet).
Dave Spiegelthal User ID: 1781064	May 8th 2:19 PM RS, Howdy, now I know who you are! All your points are well taken. And at the risk of being branded a hypocrite, I'll say that all my jazz sax mouthpieces are very open (tenor is about a .140", bari about a .150"). What do they say, "people who play glass mouthpieces shouldn't throw stones"? ---- I play refaced (opened, I admit) crystal Pomaricos on both soprano and bass clarinets........
RS User ID: 9523443	May 8th 3:37 PM Dave--.140" and .150" are good and open pieces but I wouldn't consider them extreme. I think once you get past .160" or so on a bari or tenor piece you will have entered extreme territory. But I've heard of people using pieces in this range. Plas Johnson and Ernie Watts are a couple of players that I have heard use extremely open pieces. Charlie Bay told me he has made bass clarinet pieces in the .120"-.130" range for some cat in Germany. Now that sounds like pushing the envelope.
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	May 8th 3:47 PM jmarshall83: all we have to go by is Nick's low A in the picture. I know he owned both, and it would not surprise me if he played different ones on different tracks. But the picture shows him playing a low A sax, as do most of his albums.
jmarshall83 User ID: 0422394	May 8th 11:54 PM The pic you refer to is the promotional pic that he sends everybody who wants one. one rule that I got from nick himself: If you can see the left hand of the player then it is a low Bb horn . Look at the pic from the actual session which is also painted on the cover.
Cashsax User ID: 9014973	May 9th 2:03 AM Dave S hit it back a few posts.. the Lo A IS great when used in the Blues/Rock guitar key context, nuthin like it..For improv Jazz & standards work I could live without it fer sure, I learned to play Bari on Bb's and never missed it til I had the A and realized the the difference and power available with that one single note..
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	May 9th 10:45 AM I'll look again. I was pretty sure the "left hand" test showed Nick on low A when he was playing with the guys in the studio pic.
T.S. User ID: 8882983	May 9th 11:36 AM I have both a low A yani 880 and a Conn 12M. I love the Conn for a solo voice (I love that Conn rasp), but when doing R & B gigs last year the Yani's focused, cutting sound with that low A burp came in very handy. I like both horns a lot and am glad to have both.